25kv Cheshire Stations

[A.Macallan]

…just wondering, how/why did the smaller ‘wayside’ stations on the Crewe to Liverpool & Crewe to Manchester 25kv routes survive Beeching/Marples ?, pretty much all of the WCML north serves only major centres of population. Was it that these stations had only just been modernised and represented the ‘Modern Image’ & also the Class 304’s newly built to serve them ?. The likes of Chelford, Sandbach, Goostrey & Acton Bridge etc. we’re surely easy prey…just saying.

 

[Rover]

Tory MPs? - just saying.

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe because Manchester is and was a bigger centre than most on the WCML with a tradition of affluent long-distance commuters. Liverpool also had stopping services from Crewe, but there's nowhere else on the WCML in northern England that would have so much commuting.

 

[The exile]

In many ways the “WCML North” could be seen as starting at Weaver Junction (which was after all the limit of electrification for many years). South of there, many smaller stations survived, precisely because there were services to serve them (and enough demand to make withdrawal undesirable). In many ways the surprising survivals are a bit further south - the intermediates up the Trent Valley.

 

[eldomtom2]

Oddly, Liverpool-Crewe was marked as "all stopping services to be withdrawn" on the Beeching Report's map, but I can't find any of the stations on it in the Report's list of stations to be closed...

 

[JonathanH]

In many ways the surprising survivals are a bit further south - the intermediates up the Trent Valley.

Only Atherstone, Polesworth and Rugeley are really in that category.

Removing services from Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield would have been inconsistent with other places. Presumably the need to serve those places with a local service saved the smaller stations.

 

[The exile]

Only Atherstone, Polesworth and Rugeley are really in that category.

Removing services from Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield would have been inconsistent with other places. Presumably the need to serve those places with a local service saved the smaller stations.

Arguably Lichfield as well - station well out of town, with no connecting services (at the time) and what would have been considered an adequate alternative. Rugby doesn’t count any more than Stafford, while Nuneaton and Tamworth could have seen one stop each on Liverpool and Manchester services for connectivity, thus obviating the need for the Stafford - Rugby shuttle. Fortunately, of course, no such closure happened.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

They were lucky that they received the full Modernisation Plan treatment (including in many cases new modular station buildings) before Marples applied the brakes. The lavish (for the time) electric local service gave disappointing receipts, calling into question the whole electrification plan. Sandbach and Holmes Chapel were then well out of the Manchester commuter orbit. It can be argued that the new railway brought them into that orbit, gradually building up traffic, but so did the M6 / M56.

 

[childwallblues]

Oddly, Liverpool-Crewe was marked as "all stopping services to be withdrawn" on the Beeching Report's map, but I can't find any of the stations on it in the Report's list of stations to be closed...

The only station on the Liverpool to Crewe line that has been closed is Ditton but that was not until 29th May 1994.

 

[The exile]

The only station on the Liverpool to Crewe line that has been closed is Ditton but that was not until 29th May 1994.

Well, there have been several other closures but they all (except Ditton Jn.) long preceded Beeching.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The likes of Chelford, Sandbach, Goostrey & Acton Bridge etc. we’re surely easy prey…just saying.

Sandbach today claims a population of almost 22,000 (2021 census) and whilst there is a lot of new housing, back then it would still have been a reasonably sized town with probably a decent commuter market to nearby Crewe, hardly a 'wayside' station.

 

[The exile]

Sandbach today claims a population of almost 22,000 (2021 census) and whilst there is a lot of new housing, back then it would still have been a reasonably sized town with probably a decent commuter market to nearby Crewe, hardly a 'wayside' station.

It’s easy to forget how much, outside of London, medium- to long-distance commuting is a recent (ie last 40 years or so) phenomenon. In 1960-ish most of the people who lived in Sandbach would have also worked there. Even if there were people travelling in to Crewe, they would have brought the railway no revenue (though of course it would have been in the railway’s interest that they got there) Clearly there was enough traffic to sustain a local service - but it sounds as if growth was nothing like what had been hoped for.

 

[edwin_m]

It’s easy to forget how much, outside of London, medium- to long-distance commuting is a recent (ie last 40 years or so) phenomenon. In 1960-ish most of the people who lived in Sandbach would have also worked there. Even if there were people travelling in to Crewe, they would have brought the railway no revenue (though of course it would have been in the railway’s interest that they got there) Clearly there was enough traffic to sustain a local service - but it sounds as if growth was nothing like what had been hoped for.

While this is largely true, there was some long-distance commuting into Manchester - the Southport "club trains" spring to mind. This was probably in very low numbers though. I don't know if Cheshire then was as affluent as Cheshire today or whether the same sort of commuting happened on that route.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Tory MPs? - just saying.

Northamptonshire was strong Tory country then, too. All the Northamptonshire stations on the West Coast and via Northampton were closed, apart from Long Buckby and the county town.
In 1976 the Tory C.C. saw no reason to subsidise rural or inter-urban bus services , and they all went. After all, if one of their cars broke down they had standbys.

So there's a connection with the blue vote but a negative one.

 

[The exile]

While this is largely true, there was some long-distance commuting into Manchester - the Southport "club trains" spring to mind. This was probably in very low numbers though. I don't know if Cheshire then was as affluent as Cheshire today or whether the same sort of commuting happened on that route.

Indeed - if you were a Manchester mill owner you weren’t going to actually live there! Suspect the health benefits of the coast were a stronger pull then than rural Cheshire would have been. Other people who could afford not to live in the hellhole that industry created would have been a bit further in (hence Bury & Altrincham Electrification ) - “further in” being relatively much “further out” than it is today, if you see what I mean.

 

[Taunton]

Sandbach today claims a population of almost 22,000 (2021 census) and whilst there is a lot of new housing, back then it would still have been a reasonably sized town with probably a decent commuter market to nearby Crewe, hardly a 'wayside' station.

Certainly in the 1960s Sandbach station was nowhere near Sandbach, it was even beyond the small village of Elworth, separated from Sandbach by open country and roads with no pavements. Sure things have built up somewhat since, but not at electrification time.

Winsford on the Liverpool line the same, in fact more so, it was then actually in open country, halfway between Winsford and Middlewich. Usage of both at electrification must have been very thin.

 

[Helvellyn]

How much of the small stations surviving was down to the fact the railways were a major employer in Crewe, so there may have been a healthy traffic flow because of people working at the works plus the new things that the 60s delivered - Diesel Depot, Electric Depot and the office tower block.

I know a lot will have lived in Crewe but not all.

 

[A.Macallan]

Certainly in the 1960s Sandbach station was nowhere near Sandbach, it was even beyond the small village of Elworth, separated from Sandbach by open country and roads with no pavements. Sure things have built up somewhat since, but not at electrification time.

Winsford on the Liverpool line the same, in fact more so, it was then actually in open country, halfway between Winsford and Middlewich. Usage of both at electrification must have been very thin.

Thank you Taunton, this was my point, the past WAS another country…except maybe for Acton Bridge !…2 Pubs (now 1) a cluster of cottages & an orchard ! it’s just curious how they escaped closure, surely something to do with the “Modern Image” & that 45 class 304’s had been built to serve Western Lines (although I think some were used on G.E. services), I also seem to recall the Manchester Club Trains were very well patronised, many commuters from Fylde & Southport, 9D had Britannias, Jubilees & good Black 5’s…think there may have been N.Wales Club Trains too ???.

 

[ian1944]

Did Manchester not have Windermere club trains too?

 

[Western Lord]

Hartford station was the railhead for Northwich and certain Inter-City trains stopped there, hence it's long platforms.

 

[jfollows]

I commuted by train on Manchester local services 1973-1980, and there were many stopping services and very few fast services during this period. In my case on the Macclesfield line, and from the 1974 timetable change there were stopping services to Macclesfield or beyond in the evenings at
15:53, 16:10, 16:43, 17:02 (omitted Adlington), 17:15, 17:30, 17:43, 17:58
whereas the only fast services were at
15:35, 16:23, 17:12, 18:28

Nowadays there are far more fast services, and the stopping trains are hourly with one additional rush-hour service which gets overtaken by a fast service at Macclesfield.

Essentially in the earlier days of electrification there was a lot of commuter traffic which doesn't exist any more.

The Wilmslow service (where I now live) was every 15 minutes off-peak, with additional peak services. Admittedly the service beyond Alderley Edge (Chelford and Goostrey in particuar) was thin and Sandbach is now a busier station that it used to be.

But the investment in local stations and stopping services was sensible back in the 1960s and 1970s, it's only since 1980 or so that the commuter traffic has fallen away. The commuter trains of the 1970s that I remember were full - I groaned when I saw 001-015 on a service I caught at the last minute because it probably meant I had to squeeze into one of the compartments.

I have to say that the unreliability of today's services would make me think seriously about driving to work instead, if that were an option. My father and I did that briefly back in 1980 because for two of us it made sense (until then my train fare was paid by Cheshire County Council). But back in the 1970s the commuter trains services could be relied upon in a way that they clearly can't be today - cancellations were almost unheard of. Today's commuter service is complete pants in comparison.

 

[Richard Scott]

Northamptonshire was strong Tory country then, too. All the Northamptonshire stations on the West Coast and via Northampton were closed, apart from Long Buckby and the county town.
In 1976 the Tory C.C. saw no reason to subsidise rural or inter-urban bus services , and they all went. After all, if one of their cars broke down they had standbys.

So there's a connection with the blue vote but a negative one.

But it was a Labour government, surely they could have overruled? Or perhaps it was because they'd already overspent?

 

[Taunton]

I have to say that the unreliability of today's services would make me think seriously about driving to work instead, if that were an option. My father and I did that briefly back in 1980 because for two of us it made sense (until then my train fare was paid by Cheshire County Council). But back in the 1970s the commuter trains services could be relied upon in a way that they clearly can't be today - cancellations were almost unheard of. Today's commuter service is complete pants in comparison.

Generally true. I never once recall the Wirral electric service of the 1960s-70s, with the classic old trains, being anything other than bang on time. On the few occasions I've been there in say the last 15 years, and used it, it's been more disrupted than not.

 

[A.Macallan]

Hartford station was the railhead for Northwich and certain Inter-City trains stopped there, hence it's long platforms.

…yes the 09:20 Lime St. to Pz. (1V76 ?) stopped there mid 70’s.

 

[Taunton]

…yes the 09:20 Lime St. to Pz. (1V76 ?) stopped there mid 70’s.

Likewise the return in the afternoon. This Hartford stop was specifically to suit ICI (UK's major chemical company of the era) staff travelling on business between their major installations of Severnside, near Bristol, and Northwich. I think ICI used to send a coach to meet the train.

 

[Merle Haggard]

But it was a Labour government, surely they could have overruled? Or perhaps it was because they'd already overspent?

Got the year wrong, poor memory! it was 1978.
No overspend, newly elected tory county council decided to remove totally revenue support for bus services. The labour gov. prepared to make money available but couldn't force c.c. to ask.
Pro-car tory councils happy to subsidise carparks in e.g. Wellingborough d c car park £267,000 subsidy almost exactly the reduction of total Northamptonshire bus subsidy to be withdrawn.
The view clearly was that only sad poor people use public transport, treat them with contempt.
I travelled on some of the routes on the last Saturday. Lot of chats about how people were going to manage, elderly people buying mopeds etc.
I could afford a car but didn't need one because I could cycle to the station to commute and use the bus for all other journeys. Bought a car and didn't use buses again. Obviously increased my outgoings but unavoidable.

 

[jfollows]

…yes the 09:20 Lime St. to Pz. (1V76 ?) stopped there mid 70’s.

Yes, in 1974, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...he-1970s-early-80s.228284/page-3#post-5540735

 

[A.Macallan]

Likewise the return in the afternoon. This Hartford stop was specifically to suit ICI (UK's major chemical company of the era) staff travelling on business between their major installations of Severnside, near Bristol, and Northwich. I think ICI used to send a coach to meet the train.

…great knowledge as usual Mr T ! always wondered why we called there !, I also seem to remember that this service had several loco changes too (poss. 4 ???) maybe you can enlighten, thanks in anticipation.

Yes, in 1974, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...he-1970s-early-80s.228284/page-3#post-5540735

…thanks for confirming, always seemed a strange stop for a class 1 service !, but then again it think it too about 8 hrs to reach Pz. !!

 

[Taunton]

…great knowledge as usual Mr T ! always wondered why we called there !, I also seem to remember that this service had several loco changes too (poss. 4 ???) maybe you can enlighten, thanks in anticipation.

Not quite! Past posts of mine here refer to when we started taking the service in 1962 from Taunton, the Warship worked right through from Plymouth to Crewe. On one occasion it broke down after leaving Shrewsbury going northbound and had to await rescue by a Black 5; the failure was due to the Warship running out of fuel. Apparently not for the first time, and the arrangements were thereafter altered to changing to a brand new Class 47 at Bristol.

This had sort of replicated, in fact extended, arrangements in steam loco days, when a Castle came on at Newton Abbot, and worked right through to Shrewsbury, with the same crew, as a lodging turn. It was the longest crew and loco run on the Western Region, the same pair of locos from each end worked it long term and were particularly polished for the job, whistling to one another as they passed somewhere round the Severn Tunnel. However as other steam locos did Plymouth to Newton, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Crewe to Liverpool, that makes your four.

After changing locos to the new electric at Crewe it always made a stupendous departure down the WCML, getting up to 100mph by Winsford before braking for Hartford. I was far too youthful to take timings, but it certainly FELT like 100mph!

 

[Richard Scott]

Got the year wrong, poor memory! it was 1978.
No overspend, newly elected tory county council decided to remove totally revenue support for bus services. The labour gov. prepared to make money available but couldn't force c.c. to ask.
Pro-car tory councils happy to subsidise carparks in e.g. Wellingborough d c car park £267,000 subsidy almost exactly the reduction of total Northamptonshire bus subsidy to be withdrawn.
The view clearly was that only sad poor people use public transport, treat them with contempt.
I travelled on some of the routes on the last Saturday. Lot of chats about how people were going to manage, elderly people buying mopeds etc.
I could afford a car but didn't need one because I could cycle to the station to commute and use the bus for all other journeys. Bought a car and didn't use buses again. Obviously increased my outgoings but unavoidable.

Poor memory, I'm not that old! Was more of a guess!