25kv Cheshire Stations

[A.Macallan]

Not quite! Past posts of mine here refer to when we started taking the service in 1962 from Taunton, the Warship worked right through from Plymouth to Crewe. On one occasion it broke down after leaving Shrewsbury going northbound and had to await rescue by a Black 5; the failure was due to the Warship running out of fuel. Apparently not for the first time, and the arrangements were thereafter altered to changing to a brand new Class 47 at Bristol.

This had sort of replicated, in fact extended, arrangements in steam loco days, when a Castle came on at Newton Abbot, and worked right through to Shrewsbury, with the same crew, as a lodging turn. It was the longest crew and loco run on the Western Region, the same pair of locos from each end worked it long term and were particularly polished for the job, whistling to one another as they passed somewhere round the Severn Tunnel. However as other steam locos did Plymouth to Newton, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Crewe to Liverpool, that makes your four.

After changing locos to the new electric at Crewe it always made a stupendous departure down the WCML, getting up to 100mph by Winsford before braking for Hartford. I was far too youthful to take timings, but it certainly FELT like 100mph!

…so did the Salop Castle turn (216 miles one way !) end in 1961/2 ? (and always beautifully turned out ! )… & did Crewe to L’pool electric go live in 1962.

 

[Jack Hay]

Generally true. I never once recall the Wirral electric service of the 1960s-70s, with the classic old trains, being anything other than bang on time. On the few occasions I've been there in say the last 15 years, and used it, it's been more disrupted than not.

I also commuted into Manchester 1971-77, on one of the diesel routes that had two trains per hour, and I can scarcely remember any cancellations in those six years. Indeed I can remember attempts to keep the service going that would never happen nowadays; running through freight loops to avoid failures on the main line more than once, and on one occasion shunting into a siding to try to squeeze past a derailed freight wagon on the running line. I agree that today's service is pants on comparison.

 

[A.Macallan]

Not quite! Past posts of mine here refer to when we started taking the service in 1962 from Taunton, the Warship worked right through from Plymouth to Crewe. On one occasion it broke down after leaving Shrewsbury going northbound and had to await rescue by a Black 5; the failure was due to the Warship running out of fuel. Apparently not for the first time, and the arrangements were thereafter altered to changing to a brand new Class 47 at Bristol.

This had sort of replicated, in fact extended, arrangements in steam loco days, when a Castle came on at Newton Abbot, and worked right through to Shrewsbury, with the same crew, as a lodging turn. It was the longest crew and loco run on the Western Region, the same pair of locos from each end worked it long term and were particularly polished for the job, whistling to one another as they passed somewhere round the Severn Tunnel. However as other steam locos did Plymouth to Newton, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Crewe to Liverpool, that makes your four.

After changing locos to the new electric at Crewe it always made a stupendous departure down the WCML, getting up to 100mph by Winsford before braking for Hartford. I was far too youthful to take timings, but it certainly FELT like 100mph!

…so the Class 52 Westerns were introduced in 1962, thereby replacing the Warships on Paddington turns which allowed the Warships to replace the Castles on the NW/SW route ?

 

[Lost property]

While this is largely true, there was some long-distance commuting into Manchester - the Southport "club trains" spring to mind. This was probably in very low numbers though. I don't know if Cheshire then was as affluent as Cheshire today or whether the same sort of commuting happened on that route.

Cheshire then was even more affluent than it is today, with well established "old money" residents before the influx of "celebs", prima donna "footie" players, various wide boys and pretentious 'des res' postcode seekers.

There were, however, functional bus services (North Western) hence my trips to Congleton via Knutsford / Holmes Chapel and then the Biddulph bus to Mossley.

When I started using the train, I distinctly recall these being DMU's, later replaced by some electric class with a 'rounded' front. I think you could see out of the front as well...if you stood up. These vanished when the line to Altrincham became 25kv and the flat fronted class electrics appeared.

I'm not going to suggest, that, the upgraded stations mentioned, could in any way be related to the fact the constituencies they are in were rock solid Tory for many years.

But, as others have said, commuting in the present form became more prominent with the arrival of the daily grid locked M6 / M56.

 

[Western Lord]

Likewise the return in the afternoon. This Hartford stop was specifically to suit ICI (UK's major chemical company of the era) staff travelling on business between their major installations of Severnside, near Bristol, and Northwich. I think ICI used to send a coach to meet the train.

In the summer 1965 timetable Hartford was served (apart from local trains) by the 0925 Crewe to Perth, the 1125 Euston to Barrow (from Sept 6th), the 13.35 Euston to Blackpool South and the 1710 Euston to Blackpool/Barrow

 

[jfollows]

did Crewe to L’pool electric go live in 1962.

1 January 1962 according to http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm

When I started using the train, I distinctly recall these being DMU's, later replaced by some electric class with a 'rounded' front. I think you could see out of the front as well...if you stood up. These vanished when the line to Altrincham became 25kv and the flat fronted class electrics appeared.

Classes 304/AM4 and 310/AM10, see discussion at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/304s-310s-312s.271924/
The AM10s were the ones you could see out of the front.

 

[Magdalia]

…so the Class 52 Westerns were introduced in 1962, thereby replacing the Warships on Paddington turns which allowed the Warships to replace the Castles on the NW/SW route ?

No. By end 1962 about 30 Westerns were in traffic and they mainly replaced the Kings, which were withdrawn.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Perhaps to help draw this thread to a natural conclusion (about 25kV stations in Cheshire, rather than car parking subsidies in Wellingborough or Castles, Kings, Westerns and Warships on the WR), it is worth noting that the traffic surveys that underpinned the Reshaping Report were undertaken in April 1961, to be followed by almost two years of analysis.

The WCML in the area had been a building site for the previous four years even then and the Liverpool-Crewe local electric service was only introduced in June 1962. Meanwhile onward connections towards Euston were going to be subject to further disruption and extended journey times for another four years (five, towards the West Midlands). So it wasn't difficult to see that the 'new' local services from Manchester and Liverpool to Crewe had not really had chance to show their potential, nor would they for some while.

On the other hand, other Modernisation Plan electrification schemes, notably Kent Coast, 'Chenford', LT&S and Clacton, were showing encouraging growth so perhaps the Cheshire routes might follow suit, given time and a fair wind...

 

[eldomtom2]

So it wasn't difficult to see that the 'new' local services from Manchester and Liverpool to Crewe had not really had chance to show their potential, nor would they for some while.

Though that didn't stop Liverpool-Crewe being marked "all stopping services to be withdrawn"...

 

[Dr Hoo]

Though that didn't stop Liverpool-Crewe being marked "all stopping services to be withdrawn"...

I’m not sure that a minor cartographical glitch means very much.
Are you suggesting that formal withdrawal proposals should have been made just to match the map, even though the service and it’s intermediate local stations weren’t ‘listed’?

 

[eldomtom2]

I’m not sure that a minor cartographical glitch means very much.
Are you suggesting that formal withdrawal proposals should have been made just to match the map, even though the service and it’s intermediate local stations weren’t ‘listed’?

I'm saying that it is perfectly plausible that, for instance, Beeching intended to withdraw Liverpool-Crewe services while leaving all stations served by longer-distance services.

 

[daodao]

I'm saying that it is perfectly plausible that, for instance, Beeching intended to withdraw Liverpool-Crewe services while leaving all stations served by longer-distance services.

Which is essentially what has happened. The 3 remaining Cheshire stations of Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford are now served by the Liverpool-Birmingham trains, with Ditton Junction closed and stations between Liverpool Lime Street and Allerton (now South Parkway) served by the diverted CLC services.

As for the local stations in Cheshire on the lines from Manchester to Crewe, there are only 3 serving minor settlements:

• Styal is a relatively small village, and for many years had a very limited service, now hourly; its actual population is unclear as the census figures include a large number of female prisoners
• Chelford and Goostrey are relatively large villages with populations of 1517 and 2,144 in the 2021 census

Serving these stations is not as disruptive to express passenger traffic as stations on major main lines as there weren't/aren't a very large number of such trains. The main line south from Manchester runs via Macclesfield, where the local passenger service is restricted to 1 tph and the minor stations south of Macclesfield (North Rode, Mow Cop and Scholar Green) were closed in 1962 and 1964 respectively.

​

 

[childwallblues]

Well, there have been several other closures but they all (except Ditton Jn.) long preceded Beeching.

Agreed. As far as I am aware the only stations to close when the Crewe-Liverpool line was electrified in 1961 were Sefton Park and Wavertree. It would be interesting to see their passenger figures if both had survived as both were inner city stations.
Speke Station was on Woodend Avenue between Ditton and Allerton and was closed in 1930. This area is still quite industrial although post war housing in Hunts Cross has made it a bit more residential. However Hunts Cross Station on the CLC is within walking distance and has a 15 minute Merseyrail service into Liverpool and a service to Lime Street and Warrington/Manchester.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Likewise the return in the afternoon. This Hartford stop was specifically to suit ICI (UK's major chemical company of the era) staff travelling on business between their major installations of Severnside, near Bristol, and Northwich. I think ICI used to send a coach to meet the train.

The same reason Runcorn got such a good service to London, I understand.

 

[frodshamfella]

I used to work for American Express Travel at ICI Runcorn. We looked after the ICT travel account at the time. We sold large quantities of tickets from Runcorn and also Hartford to London, so many in fact BR provided us with a ticketing machine as you would see in a station.

 

[Taunton]

It was surely a convenience for ICI in Northwich, with their major plants in the town, that the train from the West of England could stop at Hartford, nearby.

For the large Severnside installation it could have stopped at the nearest adjacent station as well, which it passed through. This was Pilning ...

 

[frodshamfella]

It was surely a convenience for ICI in Northwich, with their major plants in the town, that the train from the West of England could stop at Hartford, nearby.

For the large Severnside installation it could have stopped at the nearest adjacent station as well, which it passed through. This was Pilning ...

It was , but more worked at Runcorn, depended where the personnel lived. From memory there were a couple of morning and afternoon services from Liverpool to Euston that called at Hartford.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not quite! Past posts of mine here refer to when we started taking the service in 1962 from Taunton, the Warship worked right through from Plymouth to Crewe. On one occasion it broke down after leaving Shrewsbury going northbound and had to await rescue by a Black 5; the failure was due to the Warship running out of fuel. Apparently not for the first time, and the arrangements were thereafter altered to changing to a brand new Class 47 at Bristol.

This had sort of replicated, in fact extended, arrangements in steam loco days, when a Castle came on at Newton Abbot, and worked right through to Shrewsbury, with the same crew, as a lodging turn. It was the longest crew and loco run on the Western Region, the same pair of locos from each end worked it long term and were particularly polished for the job, whistling to one another as they passed somewhere round the Severn Tunnel. However as other steam locos did Plymouth to Newton, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Crewe to Liverpool, that makes your four.

After changing locos to the new electric at Crewe it always made a stupendous departure down the WCML, getting up to 100mph by Winsford before braking for Hartford. I was far too youthful to take timings, but it certainly FELT like 100mph!

Why did it go via Shrewsbury? To keep on GWR metals?

 

[daodao]

Why did it go via Shrewsbury? To keep on GWR metals?

Historically, through trains from North-West England to South-West England ran via the joint GWR/LNWR North and West main line and Maindee East curve and continued to do so until the late 1960s. My first journey to Newton Abbot in 1968 was routed this way. By 1973, most regular through trains between North-West and South-West England, other than a few extra summer Saturday holiday trains, were diverted to run via Birmingham New Street, with electrical haulage north of there, and the North and West main line was left with a handful of trains between Cardiff General and Crewe. A couple of services were extended to Manchester Piccadilly in the mid 1980s (with electric haulage north of Crewe) and then in late 1987, 2 coach SuperSprinter class 155 trains were introduced to replace the old mark 1 locomotive-hauled trains with an increased hourly frequency and mostly extending to Manchester.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Historically, through trains from North-West England to South-West England ran via the joint GWR/LNWR North and West main line and Maindee East curve and continued to do so until the late 1960s. My first journey to Newton Abbot in 1968 was routed this way. By 1973, most regular through trains between North-West and South-West England, other than a few extra summer Saturday holiday trains, were diverted to run via Birmingham New Street, with electrical haulage north of there, and the North and West main line was left with a handful of trains between Cardiff General and Crewe. A couple of services were extended to Manchester Piccadilly in the mid 1980s (with electric haulage north of Crewe) and then in late 1987, 2 coach SuperSprinter class 155 trains were introduced to replace the old mark 1 locomotive-hauled trains with an increased hourly frequency and mostly extending to Manchester.

I’m surprised there wasn’t a “Newport Junction” station on the east side of the town to interchange with services to the north. This routing makes sense as I’m guessing anyone from the West Country wanting the midlands would take the GWR main line through Stratford into Snow Hill?

It was surely a convenience for ICI in Northwich, with their major plants in the town, that the train from the West of England could stop at Hartford, nearby.

For the large Severnside installation it could have stopped at the nearest adjacent station as well, which it passed through. This was Pilning ...

Incredible how we managed to lose the behemoth that was ICI. How much employment and skills must have disappeared!

 

[Magdalia]

Incredible how we managed to lose the behemoth that was ICI. How much employment and skills must have disappeared!

The pharmaceutical part of ICI became the Zeneca half of AstraZeneca.

 

[Bevan Price]

Agreed. As far as I am aware the only stations to close when the Crewe-Liverpool line was electrified in 1961 were Sefton Park and Wavertree. It would be interesting to see their passenger figures if both had survived as both were inner city stations.
Speke Station was on Woodend Avenue between Ditton and Allerton and was closed in 1930. This area is still quite industrial although post war housing in Hunts Cross has made it a bit more residential. However Hunts Cross Station on the CLC is within walking distance and has a 15 minute Merseyrail service into Liverpool and a service to Lime Street and Warrington/Manchester

Wavertree and Halebank stations closed in 1958; Sefton Park closed in 1960.
Wavertree & Sefton Park stations had irregular rail services which would have been unable to compete with high frequency buses to/from Liverpool city centre.

 

[Western Lord]

Historically, through trains from North-West England to South-West England ran via the joint GWR/LNWR North and West main line and Maindee East curve and continued to do so until the late 1960s. My first journey to Newton Abbot in 1968 was routed this way. By 1973, most regular through trains between North-West and South-West England, other than a few extra summer Saturday holiday trains, were diverted to run via Birmingham New Street, with electrical haulage north of there, and the North and West main line was left with a handful of trains between Cardiff General and Crewe. A couple of services were extended to Manchester Piccadilly in the mid 1980s (with electric haulage north of Crewe) and then in late 1987, 2 coach SuperSprinter class 155 trains were introduced to replace the old mark 1 locomotive-hauled trains with an increased hourly frequency and mostly extending to Manchester.

In case anybody gets the idea that there was a regular service via Maindee East curve, the 1964 Western Region timetable shows three trains from the northwest to Bristol (all going on to Plymouth), 0905 Liverpool -Plymouth, and 12.55 and 14.25 Manchester-Plymouth. Both Manchester trains ran via Newport and reversed there. Only the Liverpool Train ran non-stop from Hereford to Bristol. In addition there were three Manchester-Cardiff trains at 0750, 16.30 and 19.25. There was a gap of 3 hours and 40 minutes between southbound trains at Crewe from 10.07 to 13.47.

 

[childwallblues]

Wavertree and Halebank stations closed in 1958; Sefton Park closed in 1960.
Wavertree & Sefton Park stations had irregular rail services which would have been unable to compete with high frequency buses to/from Liverpool city centre.

Bevan we are talking about over 60 years ago. Both Wavertree and Sefton Park are in densly populated areas were back to back housing reigns supreme. Wavertree at least is not on a direct bus route into Liverpool, the nearest bus routes being on Picton Road 61/78/79. These services have been thinned out in recent times with the loss of services run by Stagecoach (CMT), Halton Transport and Amberline and reductions in the Arriva services.