Why not?I don't see CAF meeting their needs either
Why not?I don't see CAF meeting their needs either
You may not see it that way, but TPE may disagree seeing as they already have a long-distance Civity model that can operate intercity-style services. Maybe not true intercity, but still somewhat suited for regional express operations, and it makes sense as a follow-on order after LNER's placement for tri-mode CAFs since both TPE and LNER are ran by OLR and buying in bulk winds up being ultimately cheaper. Given how it's unlikely to be an order for electric-only, it will come down to who can offer a multi-mode unit, and if Hitachi are raking up prices or aren't interested, that leaves just CAF and Stadler.I don't see them as a provider of quality long distance trains
Are you meaning the CAF Oaris High Speed train?You may not see it that way, but TPE may disagree seeing as they already have a long-distance Civity model that can operate intercity-style services. Maybe not true intercity, but still somewhat suited for regional express operations, and it makes sense as a follow-on order after LNER's placement for tri-mode CAFs since both TPE and LNER are ran by OLR and buying in bulk winds up being ultimately cheaper. Given how it's unlikely to be an order for electric-only, it will come down to who can offer a multi-mode unit, and if Hitachi are raking up prices or aren't interested, that leaves just CAF and Stadler.
No, I do mean the CAF Civity. The Oaris is a true high-speed train for the likes of HS2 whereas the Civity is a regional train that can be adapted for regional express and intercity operations such as with the 397 and LNER's future fleet.Are you meaning the CAF Oaris High Speed train?
No harm done.My apologies
The overriding factor is that they've got open order books, which puts them ahead of HitachiI don't see them as a provider of quality long distance trains
The equivalent of 331s wouldn't be suitableThe overriding factor is that they've got open order books, which puts them ahead of Hitachi
Of course, if any of the manufacturers end up with a big order from another Operator (or another country), before this order materialises, they might be less keen to bid, or put up their prices as don't need the extra work short term.You may not see it that way, but TPE may disagree seeing as they already have a long-distance Civity model that can operate intercity-style services. Maybe not true intercity, but still somewhat suited for regional express operations, and it makes sense as a follow-on order after LNER's placement for tri-mode CAFs since both TPE and LNER are ran by OLR and buying in bulk winds up being ultimately cheaper. Given how it's unlikely to be an order for electric-only, it will come down to who can offer a multi-mode unit, and if Hitachi are raking up prices or aren't interested, that leaves just CAF and Stadler.
No work for Newport though presumably?Already in May, CAF has announced 40x6 car for Madrid, and 20x3car for Oslo, so that is 300 vehicle build slots taken up.
They wouldn't be 331 equivalents, they'd be more similar to 397s.The equivalent of 331s wouldn't be suitable
Perhaps, and in that situation it may be a case of needing to take a risk on another manufacturer not yet offering a tri-mode option or may possibly need to settle for a bi-mode unit. Meanwhile as well as currently finishing off some of the 805/807/810s Hitachi will also be occupied with the HS2 stock. Not sure about Siemens and Alstom at the moment and whether they can offer a multi-mode unit for the TPE network.Of course, if any of the manufacturers end up with a big order from another Operator (or another country), before this order materialises, they might be less keen to bid, or put up their prices as don't need the extra work short term.
Already in May, CAF has announced 40x6 car for Madrid, and 20x3car for Oslo, so that is 300 vehicle build slots taken up.
Stadler has recently announced some double deck kiss EMUs for Bulgaria so they are also taking other orders.
Alstom would have to make the Adessia tri-mode to get a shot at this order, it is possible but may be less competitive than what Hitachi and CAF are offering.Alstom in the UK has an unpredictable future
Exactly my thoughts. TPE have been showered with new trains left, right and centre. Yet, over in EMR land, the Connect and Regional services are being run by 20+ year old trains which could stay until they are 40+ years old*As valid as the reasons may be, it seems like a bit of a shambles that there's talk of 29 additional trains to replace the existing fleet before they've even got around to withdrawing the barely 5-year-old Nova 3 stock. Even if the 68+MK5 stock isn't suitable for their current needs it's still a disgrace that they would be ordered and withdrawn within such a short time period.
Exactly my thoughts. TPE have been showered with new trains left, right and centre. Yet, over in EMR land, the Connect and Regional services are being run by 20+ year old trains which could stay until they are 40+ years old*
Surely TPE should be the last TOC that should receive new trains? Meanwhile old trains at other TOCs (not just EMR) soldier on with no plans to replace.
So many things wrong with the railways - yet more new stock for TPE would be another of them.
* I’m not accepting the argument that EMR is receiving the 810s seeing as I’m referring to non-IC stock.
Agreed on this and the Liverpool-Nottingham switch to TPE, but aren’t there any EMUs off lease (or to go off lease) that could run such services? 350/2s once they come off lease, for example?TPE got it because of the need for capacity - it's been worse than XC for years, and the new stock has largely solved the problem. EMR doesn't have a massive capacity problem aside from Liverpool-Notts which was to go to TPE (and I still think should have done).
Also, it's stupid electrifying a line and not running EMUs on it. Shoving wires up on TPE and still running 185s (one of the most thirsty diesel units due to the 750hp engines and very heavy weight) under them would be the definition of nuts.
350/2s once they come off lease, for example?
In theory, a couple of back-to-back cancellations throws that out the water. Or if a 3 car is allocated on a Cross Pennine (non York-Scarborough service).TPE got it because of the need for capacity - it's been worse than XC for years, and the new stock has largely solved the problem.
They're ok to sit in. Until they start moving.I think they should have fewer tables and more airline seats, but otherwise I like them. Nice interior (OK, Sophias, but they haven't collapsed yet), fully window aligned in Standard and big windows with no stupid blinds to cause arguments.
It doesn't work like that. New trains should go to the routes which can afford them, with hand-me-downs passing to the less remunerative routes.TPE have been showered with new trains left, right and centre. Yet, over in EMR land, the Connect and Regional services are being run by 20+ year old trains which could stay until they are 40+ years old*
Surely TPE should be the last TOC that should receive new trains? Meanwhile old trains at other TOCs (not just EMR) soldier on with no plans to replace.
So many things wrong with the railways - yet more new stock for TPE would be another of them.
It doesn't work like that either though - how do you explain the 755s in East Anglia and the large numbers of new units at Transport for Wales? As that would imply the Bleanau Ffestiniog brach justifies new stock but local services in/out of Leicester or Nottingham do not, which is ludicrous.It doesn't work like that. New trains should go to the routes which can afford them, with hand-me-downs passing to the less remunerative routes.
It really was quite clever to send mid life 170s to EMR from various sources to displace the 156s without saddling EMR with the high cost of new stock.
It doesn't work like that either though - how do you explain the 755s in East Anglia and the large numbers of new units at Transport for Wales? As that would imply the Bleanau Ffestiniog brach justifies new stock but local services in/out of Leicester or Nottingham do not, which is ludicrous.
I think my general point still stands though; @JonathanH was writing about EMR having a complete fleet of 170s as if it was good, well intentioned rolling stock strategy when in reality it happened by accident after it was apparent the cascade of 16 or however many 171s from Southern was never going to happen.For Blaenau it's just microfleet avoidance. Everything else is 197 operated up there, so 197s on there too. Keeping a couple of 150s for it would cost more, not less. It only didn't happen with 175s because they didn't fit, and the 15x were a pain.
See also St Albans or Lymington. There's absolutely no need for a 4-car EMU on either of these, but because everything else is run by 4-car EMUs if you have something specific for the branch it's expensive faff.
I think my general point still stands though; @JonathanH was writing about EMR having a complete fleet of 170s as if it was good, well intentioned rolling stock strategy when in reality it happened by accident after it was apparent the cascade of 16 or however many 171s from Southern was never going to happen.
the point that the intended cascade fell through, and then there were unexpectedly more 170s available from a different source that allowed them to fill that gap stands though.171s are 170s, just with a different coupler.
Mk 5s are surely “any power source you like”? OK - suitable bi-mode or electric locos might currently be as rare as hens teeth, but that’s a different matter.the only available high-speed stock (Mk 5s, 22x) is diesel-only -
As you state, not without a suitable locomotive! Realistically, it would require procuring new, 125mph electric (passenger) locos - not really a realistic proposition, and even if it was selected it would still involve getting new stock, the locomotive!Mk 5s are surely “any power source you like”? OK - suitable bi-mode or electric locos might currently be as rare as hens teeth, but that’s a different matter.
I have, several times. I’ll take a 397 over an 802 any day.I assume that anyone advocating more 397's has never experienced travelling on one.