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2nd Jobs?

Can a railway worker have a second job?


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neuralnet

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I work in the rail industry (I don't want to say what my job is) but the cost of living squeeze is really biting for me. I've been actively considering for sometime the possibility of getting a second job.

I've checked my contract carefully and it says nothing about this. However I'm cognisant that I have a safety critical role and that I need to manage for fatigue very carefully and sensibly.

I know there will be lots of people criticising me and saying that doing this is wrong but I am professional and having considered all of the options available to me this option is the only one that I can reasonably consider. My railway job just doesn't pay enough (and there's no expectation this can increase).

I would seriously like to have this discussion and see what the general consensus is. Will add a poll too.
 
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DNCharingX

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If you can manage to find a job that'll work around your railway shifts, and also avoid violating hidden rules, sure, why not.

I'm surprised that there isn't a "no second job" clause in your contract, though!
 

L401CJF

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Our contracts specifically say no other jobs are allowed without permission from the company first.

I am aware of some friends at other TOCs who do some part time work driving buses for a bit of extra cash on their days off, only something small like a morning/afternoon school run occasionally. Whether or not they've got permission or not I have no idea.
 

43066

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I've checked my contract carefully and it says nothing about this. However I'm cognisant that I have a safety critical role and that I need to manage for fatigue very carefully and sensibly.

I would check the contract again just to be sure. Highly unusual that there isn’t a clause dealing with this.

If not, I would run it past your manager and get their buy in. You wouldn’t want to be involved in an incident, and for it to come out that you were employed elsewhere.
 

Horizon22

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Interestingly worded question

Can they? Often, yes.
Should they? Highly dependent on your role and contract, and I would lean towards no for any safety-critical role.

In reality, you may well find plenty of overtime available (true of many roles in the railway) which will be a better hourly rate and easier to manage as it aligns with work you are already doing.
 

Undiscovered

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Our TOC allows second jobs, subject to their notification and approval. They're very keen to stress Hidden rules regarding start/finish and rest times, and the consequences of breaking them.
 

GalaxyDog

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My TOC has a seek approval first clause. So not a no, but not a free yes. I think they would consider the nature of the work and the hours as well as regular vs shift [afterall, two days a week as a professional gardener working 9-5ish is not the same as being a bus driver, with the safety critical and shifts that that entails, which could impact on your railway job.
 

PupCuff

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A lot depends on the circumstances. Working all the hours god gives isn't a panacea for whatever issues that you might be facing and on the extreme end of the scale in the years I've been in the rail industry I've known more than one rail staff member be removed from grade because their desire to work every overtime shift they could - and second jobs when they couldn't - backfired on them in the form of being accountable for multiple serious safety incidents.

100% engage with your manager. Management get a bad rep but the majority are sound and will try and work with you, if that means sitting down and scoping what second job you want to do and what hours you both agree will be reasonable to not affect your main employment I've no doubt they will. Unless you've got a particularly new manager they'll have had this kind of conversation before.

The flip side that management will consider is that if you are struggling with the cost of living and they don't allow you to take the additional employment is a) you might leave, and b) the struggle in itself may have an impact on your wellbeing which you may unknowingly bring to work with you and impart safety risks.
 

gimmea50anyday

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I have a second job, a self employed entertainer. I have to consider wether my work shifts allow me to take on work i get offered by my agent. If Im RD the next day or on lates then no problem. If I am earlies then I would consider wether turning the shift in to a night shift would be workable and within regulations or if i can swap with colleagues or throw in a leave day before i coukd accept it. Railway industry shifts come first and both my agent and my employer know that.

I have colleagues who (as examples) do building work or carry out revenue protection duties for another TOC on ttheir days off and again as long as safety regulations regarding rest are followed then there is no issue. Its no different to following hobbies and interests, (which my other job is!) One of my colleagues is a high flyer, as soon as he has 4 days+ off he is 37000ft in the air hopping around the world while another is a aircraft steward for the Army Reserves and with the companys blessing he uses his leave to serve his time and gets offered additional unpaid leave if required. Several staff serve on heritage railways as guards, drivers, signallers etc and their second roles are often promoted in internal company literature.
 

ComUtoR

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I've checked my contract carefully and it says nothing about this. However I'm cognisant that I have a safety critical role and that I need to manage for fatigue very carefully and sensibly.

Contracts can be very generic and typically don't include every single clause related to your role. There is most likely something that says you much adhere to all company policies applicable to your role.

You will need to find the relevant company instructions, policy, guidelines etc.

Speak to your Manager, they should know and be able to help and advise you.
 

neuralnet

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Thanks for the replies. It is interesting that this issue is one that I'm approaching with trepidation because since I've been on the railway (less than 3 years) the training I've had has been to put the fear of God into me about things going wrong, my decision making and my responsibilities. I have never had a serious incident (and would never wish to have one). I had a chat with a colleague this morning though who told me he'd had a second job for as long as he can remember and that he's never declared it to the management and saw no need to do so.

Regardless, I think this is an issue that is coming to the fore for many workers and the industry may be well advised to open a dialogue with all their workers about it. Some of you may say why don't you just leave for a better job? Well, I'd love to! I just can't get one that pays more. I have tried plenty and will now have to look at the second job because that's all I can do. I've never had to anticipate the huge inflation before and the huge costs associated with it which are particularly acute in the South East.
 

800301

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Thanks for the replies. It is interesting that this issue is one that I'm approaching with trepidation because since I've been on the railway (less than 3 years) the training I've had has been to put the fear of God into me about things going wrong, my decision making and my responsibilities. I have never had a serious incident (and would never wish to have one). I had a chat with a colleague this morning though who told me he'd had a second job for as long as he can remember and that he's never declared it to the management and saw no need to do so.

Regardless, I think this is an issue that is coming to the fore for many workers and the industry may be well advised to open a dialogue with all their workers about it. Some of you may say why don't you just leave for a better job? Well, I'd love to! I just can't get one that pays more. I have tried plenty and will now have to look at the second job because that's all I can do. I've never had to anticipate the huge inflation before and the huge costs associated with it which are particularly acute in the South East.

My contract says anything I do has to be approved, I was told no while in training and even while I was on annual leave, however once qualified provided it doesn’t interfere with your actual work and is declared and wouldn’t cause a conflict of interest you are more than welcome to, again any incident you are involved in that could be put down to fatigue, it’s most likely the first thing that would be revoked, and also having to be dependant on doing said work to cover your outgoings is a recipe for disaster as it’s easy to be reliant on the work coming in and then suddenly stop leaving you in a stressed out state even more open to an incident.

As great as the railway is, I do feel your pain as a bit of overtime would do me wonders
 

Ken X

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Having worked in compliance and safety, my suggestion is whatever you do, if, worst case, there is an incident or accident, would you be happy to explain and justify your actions to the person with the curly wig on. If so, crack on. If not don't do it.

I admit to some bias here as my mother in law was killed in a car accident caused by a tired driver coming off a night shift followed by overtime. My wife met him after the court case. She said he was a really nice chap who was finding it hard to live with what had happened. He was just trying to provide a bit extra for his family.
 

66701GBRF

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Our TOC allows second jobs, subject to their notification and approval. They're very keen to stress Hidden rules regarding start/finish and rest times, and the consequences of breaking them.

Unless the second job is railway then Hidden would not apply, which themselves are “best practice” anyway.
 

KM1991

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Our contracts specifically say no other jobs are allowed without permission from the company first.

I am aware of some friends at other TOCs who do some part time work driving buses for a bit of extra cash on their days off, only something small like a morning/afternoon school run occasionally. Whether or not they've got permission or not I have no idea.
A lot of these companies pay front line staff close to minimum wage and then have the brass neck to tell them they cannot work on side to bring in more money either. An entire economy designed to keep a lot of people poor.
 

43066

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I had a chat with a colleague this morning though who told me he'd had a second job for as long as he can remember and that he's never declared it to the management and saw no need to do so.

I don’t think this is a sensible approach. Surely the best thing to do is ask your manager in the first instance.

I have a second job, a self employed entertainer.

Is it fair to say this is more of a hobby/interest you get paid some pin money for, rather than something you rely on to pay the bills?
 

Islineclear3_1

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If you are driving trains; a guard/conductor; signaller or working on the track; I would not consider a second job. Far too risky in my view. You might feel okay but then you are involved in an incident - how would you explain to your masters.

I have 2 jobs doing what I do and with the commuting on top - it's really tiring. Please think very carefully....
 

LowLevel

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I work as a guard and have a second zero hours job also as a guard. I sought permission from my manager who consulted HR and Ops Standards Department before taking it on and the answer was as long as it is declared and you bear in mind the necessary rules on rest etc then no problem.

I usually do it on a Saturday or Sunday in the middle of a long weekend, during annual leave or instead of a booked Sunday in the day job.

I'd advise caution and treating the situation with respect though - don't kick the arse out of it.
 

newtownmgr

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Unless the second job is railway then Hidden would not apply, which themselves are “best practice” anyway.
Correct, how ever if your second job involves long hours (including coach/lorry driving/taxi work) it can have implications on fatigue & from the experience with a former colleague be used against you if you have a safety of the line incident or indeed an accident on the road.
 

SteveL9

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I would always seek approval first, you may then have to tell your employer what hours you are working with your second job so they can ensure you are not breaching working time rules (you can opt out of the 48 hour average week but you CANNOT opt out of the rest requirements).
 

alxndr

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Just because you can (if you can) doesn't mean you should either. A former colleague of mine had a second job, declared and permitted, but ultimately quit after it was pointed out that they were letting things slip in their main job because they'd taken too much on. Thankfully 90% of their role wasn't directly safety critical and they were able to recognise that they couldn't keep up with the two jobs any longer and were able to find other ways of making ends meet.
 

Aviator88

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I have to say, a safety critical job is a full time job in my opinion. That means your sole focus and lifestyle should fit around that job and, likewise, the terms and conditions of these jobs are usually carefully considered so they can offer people a sustainable lifestyle, I.e. higher than average pay etc.

Years ago, as a HGV driver, I mentioned taking a 2nd job (delivering pizzas in the evenings) to my manager. His response? He bumped my salary up to meet what I'd have earnt with the 2nd job anyway, because it was more important to him for me to be well rested and happy/secure in my job. Managers like him are actually more common than you'd think, so as others have mentioned, I'd definitely make chatting with your manager a first port of call - they're usually ready to help in some way.
 

43066

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Years ago, as a HGV driver, I mentioned taking a 2nd job (delivering pizzas in the evenings) to my manager. His response? He bumped my salary up to meet what I'd have earnt with the 2nd job anyway, because it was more important to him for me to be well rested and happy/secure in my job.

I might try that approach tomorrow as a way around the industrial dispute. :)
 

KM1991

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I have to say, a safety critical job is a full time job in my opinion. That means your sole focus and lifestyle should fit around that job and, likewise, the terms and conditions of these jobs are usually carefully considered so they can offer people a sustainable lifestyle, I.e. higher than average pay etc.

Years ago, as a HGV driver, I mentioned taking a 2nd job (delivering pizzas in the evenings) to my manager. His response? He bumped my salary up to meet what I'd have earnt with the 2nd job anyway, because it was more important to him for me to be well rested and happy/secure in my job. Managers like him are actually more common than you'd think, so as others have mentioned, I'd definitely make chatting with your manager a first port of call - they're usually ready to help in some way.
There are safety critical platform staff up and down the country on close to minimum wage.
 

djack123son

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I once said I was tired to the person training me.. I had to submit my hours worked in my second job and be monitored for fatigue for 4 months.. ultimately management didn't care, it was more of a tool to emphasise the importance of avoiding fatigue. My second job pays £21 on a Sunday and £45 overnight on a Saturday.. I rarely work in this other job, so I will deal with a little fatigue every couple of weeks thank you very much.. it's also zero hours, so I'm under no obligation to accept the work based on driving roster.
 

LKS

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Interesting read from someone on the outside looking to come in...

Had considered keeping my already zero hour contract secondary employment to help (if successful) when I would take a pay cut during year 1.
 

Undiscovered

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Unless the second job is railway then Hidden would not apply, which themselves are “best practice” anyway.
Maybe, but as I say, they're very keen to stress them and that's part of their allowance for you to work a second job.
If you work a 12hr shift at your second job, clock on at your main job after 6hrs rest, have an incident and it's found you went against what they'd said, you'd be out the door.

They allow you to do a second job, it's not a given right. Therefore you have to play by the rules that are set.
 

neuralnet

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I once said I was tired to the person training me.. I had to submit my hours worked in my second job and be monitored for fatigue for 4 months.. ultimately management didn't care, it was more of a tool to emphasise the importance of avoiding fatigue. My second job pays £21 on a Sunday and £45 overnight on a Saturday.. I rarely work in this other job, so I will deal with a little fatigue every couple of weeks thank you very much.. it's also zero hours, so I'm under no obligation to accept the work based on driving roster.
That's the kind of unhelpful intervention that I don't want and fear quite honestly. It's why I would actually be reluctant to bring it up with my manager. To those who are much more trusting of management and suggest telling a manager should be the first port of call, you need to consider that there are also many managers that take an extreme zero-risk-attitude to work. Who am I to say that this approach is wrong or bad for the industry? However, I can tell you that many of these managers are more interested in covering themselves from any possible blame rather than helping anyone or benefits for company/industry/safety as a whole.

It's been really useful for me reading about those of you that have actual experience of working second jobs already and how you manage your main job's around that.

A couple of people have referenced the possibility of incidents and how you would explain your second job if you ever had an incident, but I think that's perhaps not relevant or at the very least a poor measure of someone's fatigue. It's only really relevant if you've been reckless. Others have correctly noted that there are a great many workers that spend most of their spare minutes on heritage railways. That doesn't seem like much of a break to me but it is their choice. Would that fact be relevant if that person had a serious incident? I'd say, no, that's how they like to relax and we shouldn't assume what's stressful for one person is necessarily stressful for another. That's not to say that I don't understand why there is an obvious desire to have some universal set of rules to measure someone's fatigue because it makes things easier to regulate. I just don't think it's a good measure (and may actually have the opposite effect if workers as a result of these fatigue limits have to take on a second job for more money because their working hours are reduced). Will there be less incidents as a result? No. But the same refrain will come, as above, don't blame us, we tried to reduce their fatigue ...

I think a better way for the industry to manage fatigue for its various professions might actually be to develop some kind of individual tests for workers to do before they actually start their duties. If they can pass them, they are likely fit for work. If they fail them they are not and shouldn't come in to work. It would help workers decide if they're fit for duty and work better than trying to police their activities in their spare time. Anyway, food for thought.
 

muz379

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As well as your contract I would check that there is no supplemental company policy that applies . Your line manager , local HR rep or union rep (if a member) might be best placed to advise .
My TOC has a policy that any secondary employment (paid or voluntary) has to be declared and there are certain stipulations for commercial reasons around working for compettitors/certain employers , and stipulations for safety reasons that safety critical workers must ensure that their secondary employment does not impact upon their preparedness for duty .

I engage in voluntary work which amounts to about 6 hours a week and thus declared this when the policy came into effect . I was reminded of the need to make sure it didnt impact my work , other than that I am largely left to it but am well aware that if I were to allow my voluntary work to imapct my primary role and was involved in an operational incident I would have many qyestions to answer if I were to cite my voluntary work as part of the cause of the incident .Practically I manage that by ensuring that I do not engage in said voluntary work 12 hours before any safety critical turn of duty .

I know of others in safety critical roles who continue trades they had before on their rest days or similarly carry out voluntary work without issue . I think the biggest challenge will be finding a secondary employer who would be understanding of the needs of your primary job .

If you are driving trains; a guard/conductor; signaller or working on the track; I would not consider a second job. Far too risky in my view. You might feel okay but then you are involved in an incident - how would you explain to your masters.

I have 2 jobs doing what I do and with the commuting on top - it's really tiring. Please think very carefully....
I think this might be a tad extreme . I mean if you have a 5 day long weekend for example and decide instead of volunteering for OT in the day job that you are going to do a day driving a van for a friend who runs a small business then what is the harm in that ?

Absoloutely trying to sqeeze 6 hours of delivery driving in an evening when you have just done a 10 hour turn and have a 4am turn the next day is irresponsible and stupid , but then so would spending 6 hours driving to and from visiting a relative the evening in the same circumstances .

That's the kind of unhelpful intervention that I don't want and fear quite honestly. It's why I would actually be reluctant to bring it up with my manager. To those who are much more trusting of management and suggest telling a manager should be the first port of call, you need to consider that there are also many managers that take an extreme zero-risk-attitude to work. Who am I to say that this approach is wrong or bad for the industry? However, I can tell you that many of these managers are more interested in covering themselves from any possible blame rather than helping anyone or benefits for company/industry/safety as a whole.

It's been really useful for me reading about those of you that have actual experience of working second jobs already and how you manage your main job's around that.

A couple of people have referenced the possibility of incidents and how you would explain your second job if you ever had an incident, but I think that's perhaps not relevant or at the very least a poor measure of someone's fatigue. It's only really relevant if you've been reckless. Others have correctly noted that there are a great many workers that spend most of their spare minutes on heritage railways. That doesn't seem like much of a break to me but it is their choice. Would that fact be relevant if that person had a serious incident? I'd say, no, that's how they like to relax and we shouldn't assume what's stressful for one person is necessarily stressful for another. That's not to say that I don't understand why there is an obvious desire to have some universal set of rules to measure someone's fatigue because it makes things easier to regulate. I just don't think it's a good measure (and may actually have the opposite effect if workers as a result of these fatigue limits have to take on a second job for more money because their working hours are reduced). Will there be less incidents as a result? No. But the same refrain will come, as above, don't blame us, we tried to reduce their fatigue ...

I think a better way for the industry to manage fatigue for its various professions might actually be to develop some kind of individual tests for workers to do before they actually start their duties. If they can pass them, they are likely fit for work. If they fail them they are not and shouldn't come in to work. It would help workers decide if they're fit for duty and work better than trying to police their activities in their spare time. Anyway, food for thought.
Ill be honest if it is something that you are going to do then I think it would be unwise to do without discussing with your manager , and depending on company policy might also be a breach of this and could thus land you in more hot water later down the line . I would suggest also though that finding out the company policy if there is one may be of assistance because it may not explicitly prohibit secondary employment or it may just obligate you to inform your manager without giving the manager the power to say no .

Even if you do not like the answer given by your line manager there are always ways of raising it further if you think that the answer or reasoning is unreasonable .
 
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43066

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That's the kind of unhelpful intervention that I don't want and fear quite honestly. It's why I would actually be reluctant to bring it up with my manager. To those who are much more trusting of management and suggest telling a manager should be the first port of call, you need to consider that there are also many managers that take an extreme zero-risk-attitude to work. Who am I to say that this approach is wrong or bad for the industry? However, I can tell you that many of these managers are more interested in covering themselves from any possible blame rather than helping anyone or benefits for company/industry/safety as a whole.

To me the approach of the poster you quoted’s employer sounds fairly reasonable. The employee has been honest, the employer has engaged with their request and accommodated it in a way that manages risk.

Others have correctly noted that there are a great many workers that spend most of their spare minutes on heritage railways.

One poster has said he works on a heritage railway in a way that his employer is aware of. If people have serious enough incidents almost anything will be considered relevant. For me I wouldn’t want to take the risk of not disclosing it and it somehow coming out later.

You mentioned having no possibility of a pay rise, is there no opportunity to take on overtime shifts in the main job?
 
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