317/365 combination, from where?

[delt1c]

at 1322 today I saw a 317/365 combination taking the Templemills line at Coopers Mill junction.
Now it is an unusual combination, only ever seen it ECS Kings Cross to Hornsey. But over here on the Lea valley it is the 1st time I have seen a 365.
next strange thing is where did it come from? If it was ECS from Hornsey to Ilford surely it would have taken the North London line and couldnt have come from Gospel Oak line as it isnt electrified.
So did it come all the way from Cambridge or North London Line then Graham Road Curve then Reversal to either Seven Sisters or Tottenham South with another reversal?
Definatley a strange one, didnt see if the 317 was dragging the 365 or if both were powered .

 

[alex57601]

As far as I'm aware 317s are not compatible with 365s, so more likely a drag or a rescue.

 

[jv3531]

Although they can't work in multiple, both unit types are fitted with tightlock couplers so I would tend to agree with above or at least a stock move depot to depot for example - besides which the operating system would be completly different for starters!

 

[delt1c]

I am aware that electrically they are incompatible , and cant work in multiple but when I last saw this combination it was out of Kings Cross and both units had pantographs raised.
Couldnt have been a rescue as we dont have 365's over here and both were FCC . Also if it had came via NLL with the 317 dragging the 365 dont know if it would have had the power to drag the 365 up the Graham road spur.

 

[MCR247]

didnt read post proberley >

 

[westcoaster]

the 317 will drag the 365 from hornsey to ilford as 365 as are not allowed to operate on the geml due to power issues, so the 365 has to be dragged, nll is closed at the moment so dispensation has been given to go via cambridge. hope that helps

 

[SouthEastern-465]

the 317 will drag the 365 from hornsey to ilford as 365 as are not allowed to operate on the geml due to power issues, so the 365 has to be dragged, nll is closed at the moment so dispensation has been given to go via cambridge. hope that helps

i dont mean this in a sarcastic way but mean it,this man knows what hes talking about,so this is your anser

 

[MCR247]

i dont mean this in a sarcastic way but mean it,this man knows what hes talking about,so this is your anser

was that post needed?

 

[90019]

i dont mean this in a sarcastic way but mean it,this man knows what hes talking about,so this is your anser

What was the point in posting that?

People can make up their own minds about what they think is right.

 

[delt1c]

That would fully explain it, long way round though. Would have thought a barrier coach loco could have taken it via the Gospel Oak line.
Must have been quite an effort for the 317 to drag the 365 south of bishop Stortford and keep out of the way of the Stanstead Express service.
Thanks WestCoaster , was this a 1st though a 365 on the former WAGN lines? Certainly in all the years I have used the service it is a 1st for me .

 

[Aictos]

That would fully explain it, long way round though. Would have thought a barrier coach loco could have taken it via the Gospel Oak line.
Must have been quite an effort for the 317 to drag the 365 south of bishop Stortford and keep out of the way of the Stanstead Express service.
Thanks WestCoaster , was this a 1st though a 365 on the former WAGN lines? Certainly in all the years I have used the service it is a 1st for me .

On the former WA lines it might well be the first....but the 365s are cleared to run under their own power on the GN lines.

There's no such thing as the former WAGN lines anymore, they are two completely separate routes and always have been.

 

[O L Leigh]

I didn't see the combination, but a colleague told me about it.

The move was indeed ECS from the Bombardier Works at Ilford back to the GN via the WA lines rather than the more usual route of the NLL. I don't believe that the NLL is actually closed as the LOROL services seem to be operating as normal, but quite a bit of stuff that would normally take this route is being diverted.

All GN's EMU's can work in multiple but only for assistance purposes and not in service. Therefore it is certainly possible for an ECS move to comprise Cl313, Cl317 and Cl365 units all under power. However, as has been said, Cl365's cannot work under their own power along the GEML (for reasons that I still don't fully understand), so transit moves to and from Ilford are done using a Cl317 to haul the Cl365 dead with the pan isolated and locked down. Swapping this for a loco and translators would have been more expensive and troublesome than just running it as planned but with a diversion.

I can't see this move having caused major problems with timekeeping. Sure it would have been slow getting up to speed, but once it's there it doesn't require vast amounts of power to maintain that speed. Besides, my colleague reported that it was "looped" at Broxbourne for a brief period.

Incidentally, whose Cl317 was providing the power? I'm assuming it would have been a GN unit. Also, any pics yet?

There's no such thing as the former WAGN lines anymore, they are two completely separate routes and always have been.

Nope.

The rolling stock was always shared while there used to be just a single depot of drivers at Cambridge who "signed" both routes into London.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

As to the 365 on the WA, don't the stepboards need to be removed and the air bags under the coaches deflated for it to accepted onto the WA due to the size of it being wider then the 317s etc...

 

[delt1c]

unfortunatley it all happened so quick I didnt get a chance if a picture. The tractor unit was a FCC 317. As this was heading to Ilford we may be lucky enough to have a return working. Out of curiosity would it have taken the Southbury loop to Seven Sisters.
As to the reply about former WAN routes, I use the Lea Valley everyday and it was formerly operated by WAGN therfore it is a former WAGN route.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

What was the point in posting that?

People can make up their own minds about what they think is right.

ok keep your hair on dont have to moan about everything!

 

[Aictos]

As to the reply about former WAN routes, I use the Lea Valley everyday and it was formerly operated by WAGN therfore it is a former WAGN route.

I disagree, it only really counted as a former WAGN route as the WAGN franchise simply joined two separate routes together.

Back in NSE days, the two were marketed separately as two seperate routes which they are, one as the Great Northern route and one as the West Anglia route.

Here's proof that they are two separate routes:

http://www.rodge.force9.co.uk/html/map.htm

See the key to the left of the map, clearly lists the two as two separate routes hence my point about them!

I suppose when FCC go, then any route operated by them would be classed as a former FCC route even if it's a route managed by a partner ie South Eastern where the Blackfriars to Sevenoaks route comes in.

 

[O L Leigh]

You've not read my post above.

The routes were linked even though the branding was different. The Cl317's were shared across both routes while drivers from Cambridge depot (and possibly other locations as well) worked both routes equally. The different branding is a red herring.

O L Leigh

 

[delt1c]

I take it that you wouls agree that the Inverness to Kyle line and the Liverpool St to Cambridge were both former BR lines. Yet they were in different regions and run by different managment,
Now lets get back on topic without pointless postings.

 

[jopsuk]

Just rmembered, on my way to work yesterday around midday (as I'd had the morning off) I was at Cambridge when a 365 with the steps removed pulled into the furthest loop from platform 1/4 with a 317 (FCC) on the rear, from the south. Both units had their pans up.

 

[O L Leigh]

That one had probably just come down the GN branch from Hitchin and was going to reverse for the run back up the WA lines to get to Stratford.

These units can work in multiple for assistance purposes and ECS, just not in passenger service. Having the Cl317 on the rear of a northbound working means it's in the right place to drag the Cl365 once the pan had been lowered and locked down.

O L Leigh

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

I saw it come through Tottenham Hale yesterday afternoon whilst at work. It had 317 343 on the front, with 365 505 on the rear with the pan down, working as 5L74 I think. It went to Ilford Depot via Stratford, and then came back as 5E74 a couple of hours later.