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360 running speed

Railperf

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Can't see this happening for the simple reason that St Albans is part of the route and they have a bigger and much louder voice.

Unless the EMR services add St Albans to their calling pattern and then there would be issue with overcrowding.

Also can't imagine Harpenden would be too pleased to see their travel times increase, or face having to use St Albans as an interchange station - something that happened during the era of the TL expresses cutting out Harpenden.

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Tonight the 1647 EMR Connect from St Pancras was delayed due to the 1636 Thameslink being kept on the fast line beyond Radlett. Thankfully the bus I wanted at Luton was also delayed.
There are no circumstances under which this makes sense. It would signficiantly reduce capacity on the line, significantly increase journey times for most Thameslink passengers on the line, and cost the industry a significant amount of lost revenue - at least £100m a year.
What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays? Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?

There are plenty of examples of places that no longer have services using the main lines - but increased frequency along the 'slow' lines has in some way mitigated that and those people accept that a slightly longer journey is needed, but they can turn up and go rather than waiting half an hour.

Being a user of MML services -particularly to Luton airport, i am aware that there is a choice between a slower Thameslink service or hot fotting it over to the main line station with aim of getting on the faster EMR connect. If I'm boarding at Farringdon, it is a choice between the inconvenience of humping bags out at St Pancras hoping that the EMR train is on time - as opposed to staying on Thameslink and accepting possibly 10 minute slower journey overall. The whole proecedure of switching Thameslink to EMR platforms probably loses 10 minutes in itself, and you need to be on the platform 5 to 10 minutes before departure to find a seat - allowing time even to walk to the front of the EMR train.

How have Bedford and Luton passengers responded to losing the bulk of their direct Intercity services now? Did revenue fall? I've never read anywhere that there was a huge drop of ridership from these towns for that decision. Similarly Watford Junction and Milton Keynes passengers have not deserted the railway due to Avanti stopping fewer services there.
 
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InTheEastMids

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What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays? Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?
In their East Midlands Route Study, published in 2016, Network Rail outlined a number of possible interventions. Obviously these are considering a pre-pandemic world where HS2 would reach Toton...

- Grade separation at Leagrave for southbound trains
- Grade separation at Harpenden for northbound trains
- Additional platform/turnback south of Bedford (Leagrave was identified as a potential site)

However, none of these seem to have been picked up as immediate priorities. They were several other schemes that subsequently have not happened (Leicester Capacity, Bedford Station and Syston-Manton)

The report is linked below.
 

DarloRich

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noting various speed discussions above, and of course OT, how did an HST perform over the sections of track quoited? I assume slowest of all of the traction types listed?
 

Spartacus

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What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays? Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?

There are plenty of examples of places that no longer have services using the main lines - but increased frequency along the 'slow' lines has in some way mitigated that and those people accept that a slightly longer journey is needed, but they can turn up and go rather than waiting half an hour.

Being a user of MML services -particularly to Luton airport, i am aware that there is a choice between a slower Thameslink service or hot fotting it over to the main line station with aim of getting on the faster EMR connect. If I'm boarding at Farringdon, it is a choice between the inconvenience of humping bags out at St Pancras hoping that the EMR train is on time - as opposed to staying on Thameslink and accepting possibly 10 minute slower journey overall. The whole proecedure of switching Thameslink to EMR platforms probably loses 10 minutes in itself, and you need to be on the platform 5 to 10 minutes before departure to find a seat - allowing time even to walk to the front of the EMR train.

How have Bedford and Luton passengers responded to losing the bulk of their direct Intercity services now? Did revenue fall? I've never read anywhere that there was a huge drop of ridership from these towns for that decision. Similarly Watford Junction and Milton Keynes passengers have not deserted the railway due to Avanti stopping fewer services there.

Personally I'd be tempted to cut the Luton services back to Kentish Town. The whole thing seems to run a huge deal better when that's been done for differing reasons. Is the pretty minor connectivity benefit for stations between St Albans and West Hampstead really worth the headway and junction margin compromises? Northbound they manage to be right behind at St Albans terminator at St Albans, and right in front of one when leaving West Hampstead, southbound they're right behind one from Bedford at Luton, right in front of one starting St Albans at St Albans, and right behind one at West Hampstead.
 

Bald Rick

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What interventions do you think would improve reliability along the midland main line - being that the slow to fast line movements frequently seem to impede main line running and create delays?

The crossings slow to fast etc do not create delays. They (sometimes) amplify delays that have already been created. If the railway ran on time, there would be no delays from the crossing movements. So, to answer your question, to improve reliability you need to do all the things the railway does to do that.

To reduce the reactionary delays, my answer is ETCS (coming in the next decade) and extending the ATO for Thameslink services out to Cricklewood on both Fast and slow lines. Whilst it won’t solve it, it will help enormously. The impact of ATO in the core is very noticeable on punctuality. My train tonight made up 7 minutes between London Bridge and Kentish Town through being in ATO.


Does all this criss-crossing improve capacity?

Yes. It makes best use of fast line capacity, and uses that capacity a) where it is needed (the first 30 miles from London) and b) where it generates a significant amount of revenue.


There are plenty of examples of places that no longer have services using the main lines - but increased frequency along the 'slow' lines has in some way mitigated that and those people accept that a slightly longer journey is needed, but they can turn up and go rather than waiting half an hour.

There are a few examples, but none as severe as what you propose, nor serving stations with the passenger numbers and revenue of the MML commuter belt. Your proposal would not result in increased frequency - quite the opposite in fact - and the journey times would almost double for many passengers.

The stations between Luton and StAlbans already have, essentially, a turn up and go service of between 12-15tph in the peaks and 10tph off peak. If all Thameslinks went slow line it would be a maximum of 12tph peak, 8tph off peak. St Albans would see a near doubling of journey times (northbound) from a typcal 18 minutes to 34 minutes and fewer services, Harpenden would also see a journey time increase of 16 mins and a reduction in services, Radlett, Elstree and Mill Hill see an increase of 5-6 minutes. Luton Airport would have (at best) the same number of services but 80%+ of them would have much longer journey times. These journey times increases would apply all day.

It would crucify revenue.


How have Bedford and Luton passengers responded to losing the bulk of their direct Intercity services now?

They haven’t lost the bulk of their ‘intercity’ services. They have gained services for their most importsnt market, ie London. Granted they are not of Intercity stock (although fairly soon it will feel like it), but they have more services, to a more regular clockface timetable. And more seats, meaning they are much more likely to travel incomfort, rather than in the gangway of a Mark 3 coach.

Similarly Watford Junction and Milton Keynes passengers have not deserted the railway due to Avanti stopping fewer services there.

Milton Keynes has more stops in the Long distance services - to a regular pattern - than it ever has had, with 4 an hour. Watford has never had routine stops in long distance services to London, which is by far its biggest market. The relatively few northbound non-Birmingham services that stopped there before 2008 have largely gone, but frankly that was a minor market.


Personally I'd be tempted to cut the Luton services back to Kentish Town.

And halve the frequency of peak services to Brent Cross, Mill Hill, Elstree and Radlett?
 

Spartacus

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And halve the frequency of peak services to Brent Cross, Mill Hill, Elstree and Radlett?

OK, run most during the peak, but are they REALLY required so regular off peak, just as does Corby REALLY require a half hourly service to London, particularly off peak?

I know it's something for a different thread but the route's just so congested that nothing has to go wrong or to be particularly late for delays to happen and pile up. A minute at a station here or there and headways or junction margins are compromised, a bit slow clearing out at St Albans and the Luton behind's delayed, freight a little slow going in at Limbury Road, or coming out at Radlett or Elstow, and that's assuming there's not problems in Brighton, or Edinburgh delaying a Cross Country which delays the EMR out of Sheffield which delays GTR from Bedford coming out at Harpenden which delays the one from Luton right behind it.

To me the timetable has many of the same hallmarks of the chaotic TPE timetable from a few years back, though without the ill thought out traincrew diagrams which weren't so much the straw that broke the camel's back as the ruddy great log. Like a house of card it's impossible for it to be robust as it is, not least because of the position of the fast and slow lines (not that that's likely to change, not that we ever thought Transpennine, the Mirfield area in particular, would ever get the money invested to make the desired frequency a reliable possibility which it is getting), and reality there are a fair few issues with planning rules compliance, which only don't come to light more because trains are usually later than the compliance is out.

I've got to say though, 7 minutes back in ATO's good going, especially after a lot of disruption due to the bridge strike, which were you on?
 
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InTheEastMids

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OK, run most during the peak, but are they REALLY required so regular off peak, just as does Corby REALLY require a half hourly service to London, particularly off peak?
Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
Obviously Connect is also the express service from Bedford (3.3M, in the same ball-park as Derby), and Luton/Airport which between them are around 8M (more than Nottingham).

i.e. stripping back the Connect service to 1tph seems like a profoundly anti-growth thing to do. I think politically it'd be a tough sell, and that'd probably lead to additional EMR IC calls at some of these stations to mitigate this. In turn, this has further impacts on customers to/from the east mids cities, timetabling, capacity in the 810 fleet and so on.
 

Spartacus

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Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
Obviously Connect is also the express service from Bedford (3.3M, in the same ball-park as Derby), and Luton/Airport which between them are around 8M (more than Nottingham).

i.e. stripping back the Connect service to 1tph seems like a profoundly anti-growth thing to do. I think politically it'd be a tough sell, and that'd probably lead to additional EMR IC calls at some of these stations to mitigate this. In turn, this has further impacts on customers to/from the east mids cities, timetabling, capacity in the 810 fleet and so on.

Going well down the speculative burrow but the alternate one running Corby - Bedford, remaining on the slows, could at least be timed to connect with the GTR service, and might provide some impetus to have stations built for Oakley and Rushden, making it politically more palatable.
 

43066

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Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
Obviously Connect is also the express service from Bedford (3.3M, in the same ball-park as Derby), and Luton/Airport which between them are around 8M (more than Nottingham).

i.e. stripping back the Connect service to 1tph seems like a profoundly anti-growth thing to do. I think politically it'd be a tough sell, and that'd probably lead to additional EMR IC calls at some of these stations to mitigate this. In turn, this has further impacts on customers to/from the east mids cities, timetabling, capacity in the 810 fleet and so on.

Absolutely this.

Plus there is a lot of potential for future growth with all the house building going on in the Kettering/Corby area. The next step will be to lengthen the 360s to twelve cars as demand picks up, and the upgraded facilities at Cauldwell (hopefully) allow better fleet availability.
 

Bald Rick

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OK, run most during the peak, but are they REALLY required so regular off peak

Try it, you’d be surprised how busy they are. Off peak trains routinely have people standing. Can be crush loaded at weekends.

I've got to say though, 7 minutes back in ATO's good going, especially after a lot of disruption due to the bridge strike, which were you on?

That’s pretty standard to be honest. It’s not all ATO, some of it is performance allowance either side of the core, and some of it is the driver being sharp on dwells (I wish they all were…). And it relies on a clear run. ATO itself prob saves about 3 mins.
 

AM9

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Try it, you’d be surprised how busy they are. Off peak trains routinely have people standing. Can be crush loaded at weekends.
That also applies to the later evening off-peak where the fasts still have about 1/2 to 2/3 of seats occupied when arriving at St Albans on the 21:50, 22:05 & 22:20 ex St Pancras. I think that many here just don't appreciate how much traffic the fast Thamelink services (and the Metros) do carry throughout the day.
 

Kite159

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Corby is one of the brightest spots in the post-pandemic railway, having grown from 300k entries/exits in 19/20 to 500k 23/24.
I wonder how much of that growth is down to Corby & other stations in that area now having ticket barriers. Also growth due to increase service from 1tph of a 5 coach 222 to 2tph of mostly 8 coach 360s, making the train more appealing
 

voyager1

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The journey home Friday evening was interesting on the 1647 EMR. I was tracking the delayed TL 1636 and thought "oh no, not again," and when we left St Pancras, I only then noticed the 1621 TL was very delayed and in front of the 1636. I saw it waiting at the junction just before the West Hampstead tunnel for us to pass and thought "on another night, that train would have been let out in front of us to stop at West Hampstead and P4 St Albans to add 5-10 minutes on to our journey,"

I also wondered why sometimes if a Thameslink is that late, it gets turned into a whoosher (skipping stops to make up time) and other times it doesn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Plus there is a lot of potential for future growth with all the house building going on in the Kettering/Corby area. The next step will be to lengthen the 360s to twelve cars as demand picks up, and the upgraded facilities at Cauldwell (hopefully) allow better fleet availability.

I thought there wasn't enough stock to lengthen the 360s to 12 cars?

Could we end up with the 350s from the WCML now they're getting these 730 trains?
 

swt_passenger

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I thought there wasn't enough stock to lengthen the 360s to 12 cars?

Could we end up with the 350s from the WCML now they're getting these 730 trains?
It’s a 3 hour round trip including layovers, so 6 sets are required for the service. Running most but not all as 12 car isn’t too onerous in terms of a typical EMU utilisation of 85%, but I think it would be for the peaks only with reduction to 8 during the off peaks.

I’m sure 12 car running was given as the reason why they took all 21 units when the decision was first made, 21 would be far too many for a permanent 8 car service, ie only 57% utilisation.
 
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Railperf

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Any news on additional driver training for EMR connect drivers in anticipation of the use of the new 110mph limits?
 

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