3rd Rail 100 mph stretches

[cjmillsnun]

Speed limits were not enforced. 100mph was achieved over 90MPH sections.

 

[AM9]

Basingstoke has had a TSR over the diamond on the up fast for as long as I’ve worked on the railway. It keeps bobbing between 30mph and 50mph.

on the SWML if you wanted to speed up journey times rather than trying to get up to the magic 100mph marker you’d be better off finding a way for all Desiro stock to draw 100% power, rather than the 59% that a 450 can pull and 85%ish a 444 can pull. That’s without any additional power reduction modes being implemented.

The only practical way to deliver consistent power up to 100% of their rating is to replace the third rail with it's metro quality distribution system and install standard 25kV OLE over that line. The desiros could then even be modified to do 110mph like the 350s then. But unless the restrictionns below 90mph are fixed first, it would be a waste of money. As has been said so many times here, the best way to speed a line up is to addrerss the slow bits before any effort is wasted on making the fast bits faster.

 

[bramling]

Speed limits were not enforced. 100mph was achieved over 90MPH sections.

A special speed profile was authorised, no doubt with full consultation with NR and mitigations in place. Even on that special trip with the line ahead cleared of trains, 100 mph wasn't sustained for long.

 

[nlogax]

The only practical way to deliver consistent power up to 100% of their rating is to replace the third rail with it's metro quality distribution system and install standard 25kV OLE over that line. The desiros could then even be modified to do 110mph like the 350s then.

Agree, though I would suggest the stock and power delivery methods aren't the only limiting factors. Track on the SWML has never felt particularly smooth underneath Desiros, certainly not to WCML standards. Comfy seats on Mk1 stock or relative smooth riding on Mk3s atop T3 bogies was (yes, I appreciate this is perilously close to becoming an infrastructure conversation!)

 

[75A]

I've told the story before on this forum:
In the early 80's @ Brighton we had a 00:001 turn on Boxing Day morning taking a pair of 73's 'light' to Victoria to work the 03:23 Brighton & 03:27 Eastbourne Paper trains back. Work it out!

 

[AM9]

Agree, though I would suggest the stock and power delivery methods aren't the only limiting factors. Track on the SWML has never felt particularly smooth underneath Desiros, certainly not to WCML standards. Comfy seats on Mk1 stock or relative smooth riding on Mk3s atop T3 bogies was (yes, I appreciate this is perilously close to becoming an infrastructure conversation!)

Personally I think that it's a shame that the SWML to Eastleigh at least doesn't benefit from decent track and streamlined junctions as it is one of the most geographically straight routes out of London (even taken from as far in as Wimbledon), and there a no gradiaents that would embarass any train that was genuinely capable of 100mph or more. The run from Wimbledon flyover to Basingstoke is four track, paired by direction and with the conspicuous absence of Woking, all branches are grade separated. That to me looks like a candidate for higher speed fasts if only the infrastructure could support it.

 

[contrex]

I have a DVD of a publicity high speed run to Brighton. Lines kept clear but speed limits
enforced. I think they did it by a couple of mins ) must find it and rerun )
The driver made a couple of P A announcements " we are doing 100 mph"

Given away free with the Railway Magazine in 2005 after a record run (36m 5s) by a loaded 377 from London Bridge. Now on YouTube

They had special permission to do 100 mph at certain 90 mph locations and at one place you could (can) hear driver Peter Mantell saying 'come on, old girl!' as 377 472 struggled to reach 100. They had someone in the cab with him who had all the speed restrictions, braking points, etc, on a clipboard, but Peter knew them all. He calls them out as he goes. Part of the pleasure of the video is to see a very professional and experienced driver at work.

 

[paul1609]

I think the 3rd rail routes passed for 100mph (for certain stock types) are:
- the SE former Eurostar route from Sevenoaks to Sandling (before the Eurotunnel/Dover routes separate) - about 40 miles
- the SW main line between Byfleet and Eastleigh - about 50 miles

There are lower limits through major stations/junctions (eg Tonbridge, Ashford, Basingstoke-Worting Jn).
On the SW route the 100mph is not always on both lines.

On the SEML it's quite common to hit the ton on a down train passing non stop through Hildenborough and 90 mph can be exceeded even by trains stopping at both Tonbridge and Paddock Wood. Beyond Ashford both 375s and 395s usually exceed 90 mph before Sandling and its also common to hit the ton.

 

[peteb]

You could often see 100mph on the speedo of the MK1 type emu whose cab you were next to when gangwayed units joined together, looking through to the vacant cab. I have seen this on Brighton to London, London to Southampton, Dover to London after (Ashford near Paddock Wood). But as has been said I think all these lines were 90mph limits but overspeed was tolerated. (And 100mph on speedo probably equals 95 in reality).

 

[paul1609]

I believe its also possible to do 100mph on the old Eurostar connection from the SEML at Dollands Moor, which is third rail for a stretch while the transition to OHLE is made (seriously doubt anything does that now though there).

When HS1 phase 1 was built Continental Junction was moved roughly 1 km towards Ashford. Whilst the changeover section still exists it can now only be used by freight trains that are not calling in to Dollands Moor. I think the only locos that have both TVM and Aws are a limited number of Class 92s which have a max speed of 80 mph.

 

[Colin1501]

If you mean SR, then none; if you mean BR(S) then 90mph was permitted between Tonbridge and Ashford from electrification, so it would be CEP/BEP/HAP/MLV. The regional limit was lifted to 90 from then.
IIRC some EPBs were regeared for 90, but I think that was slightly later.

Tonbridge to Ashford was electrified as part of Phase 2 of the Kent Coast electrification in 1962, but I don't think 90 mph running was permitted by any SR EMUs until around 1967. Prior to that, the maximum was 75 mph.

 

[southern442]

On the SEML it's quite common to hit the ton on a down train passing non stop through Hildenborough and 90 mph can be exceeded even by trains stopping at both Tonbridge and Paddock Wood. Beyond Ashford both 375s and 395s usually exceed 90 mph before Sandling and its also common to hit the ton.

On a 375/3 from the Medway Valley line it certainly felt like very close to 100 between Paddock Wood and Tonbridge. Definitely over 90.

 

[Bikeman78]

Didn't the 442s hold the 3rd rail max speed record? Presumably that must have been set on a section of line rated for at least 100 mph?

I think the official record is 108 mph which was a 442. The REPs went faster back in the day if they ran on their own. No surprise when they had 3000hp for 170 tons. About the same as an HST with just one trailer.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I've told the story before on this forum:
In the early 80's @ Brighton we had a 00:001 turn on Boxing Day morning taking a pair of 73's 'light' to Victoria to work the 03:23 Brighton & 03:23 Eastbourne Paper trains back. Work it out!

I’m sorry, but am I missing something obvious here?

 

[75A]

I’m sorry, but am I missing something obvious here?

Green lights all the way...............with over 3000BHP

 

[Railwaysceptic]

. . . . I'm not sure why this up/down difference exists in the latter stretch, through Basingstoke I expect curvature is the reason through the station.

Similar situation at Woking where the up fast platform is straight but the down fast has a nasty curve.

Personally I think that it's a shame that the SWML to Eastleigh at least doesn't benefit from decent track and streamlined junctions as it is one of the most geographically straight routes out of London (even taken from as far in as Wimbledon), and there a no gradiaents that would embarass any train that was genuinely capable of 100mph or more. The run from Wimbledon flyover to Basingstoke is four track, paired by direction and with the conspicuous absence of Woking, all branches are grade separated. That to me looks like a candidate for higher speed fasts if only the infrastructure could support it.

The gradients may be no problem but some of the curves inhibit high speeds. I certainly agree that Joseph Locke did a brilliant job with that route.

 

[Colin1501]

Similar situation at Woking where the up fast platform is straight but the down fast has a nasty curve.

I don't think it has a 'nasty curve'. It may not be quite as straight as the up fast, but it has a 90 mph limit and I've never noticed any discomfort passing through at that speed. Admittedly, that doesn't happen very often, as Woking is so busy that non-stoppers are frequently checked, but that's probably for another topic!

 

[notadriver]

On a 375/3 from the Medway Valley line it certainly felt like very close to 100 between Paddock Wood and Tonbridge. Definitely over 90.

i think you would get 90 going from paddock wood to Tonbridge. 100 is possible the other way but 375/3 aren’t as fast as their 4 car sisters

On the SEML it's quite common to hit the ton on a down train passing non stop through Hildenborough and 90 mph can be exceeded even by trains stopping at both Tonbridge and Paddock Wood. Beyond Ashford both 375s and 395s usually exceed 90 mph before Sandling and its also common to hit the ton.

A 395 exceeding 90 before Sandling would be awesome. Leaving Ashford, 100mph can be attained at Herringe before Westenhanger by a 375.

 

[AM9]

Similar situation at Woking where the up fast platform is straight but the down fast has a nasty curve.


The gradients may be no problem but some of the curves inhibit high speeds. I certainly agree that Joseph Locke did a brilliant job with that route.

Where are the curves that are limiting the maximum speed and could some enhanced cant on the fasts-only make it possible?

 

[Sheridan]

Green lights all the way...............with over 3000BHP

I’m assuming you mistyped at least one of the times in your original post as even allowing for shunting time, it doesn’t seem all that impressive as currently written!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’m assuming you mistyped at least one of the times in your original post as even allowing for shunting time, it doesn’t seem all that impressive as currently written!

I guess just the fact it was Boxing Day, so little/no traffic around. Sounds like a long wait in Victoria either way!

 

[75A]

I guess just the fact it was Boxing Day, so little/no traffic around. Sounds like a long wait in Victoria either way!

It was

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I've always wondered how fast a 375 / 377 could go if there were no restrictions whatsoever.

 

[AM9]

I've always wondered how fast a 375 / 377 could go if there were no restrictions whatsoever.

The 377/5s on the MML fasts would regularly achieve 100mph in service, but that's with full power from the ac OLE of course.

 

[zwk500]

The 377/5s on the MML fasts would regularly achieve 100mph in service, but that's with full power from the ac OLE of course.

Do the 377s on the Southern East Croydon-MK service presumably get up to 100mph (or close to it) at points on the WCML.

 

[Flange Squeal]

On the SWML I believe in the down direction the 100mph running doesn't start until Farnborough, then runs through to Basingstoke, then after a pause through to Worting Jct resumes at 100mph to Eastleigh as you describe. I believe Basingstoke is 65mph on the down, but I'm sure 100mph is possible through the station on the Up fast (or certainly was in the past), while further up 100mph running carries on through to Byfleet or somewhere in that area, although I'm not sure how much of Farnborough-Woking is 100mph in the up direction. I'm not sure why this up/down difference exists in the latter stretch, through Basingstoke I expect curvature is the reason through the station.

On the down, the 90 through to Worting starts a couple of miles prior to reaching Basingstoke, at the 45 milepost, between Hook and Basingstoke. On the up, once clear of the restriction through Basingstoke, the 100 continues unbroken right through Woking to more-or-less the M25 motorway overbridge, a short distance before Byfleet & New Haw station.

 

[brad465]

The 377/5s on the MML fasts would regularly achieve 100mph in service, but that's with full power from the ac OLE of course.

I thought until recently power supply wasn't strong enough to permit electric stock doing over 90mph between St Pancras and Bedford? 377/5s now primarily do Maidstone East line operations and definitely can't do 100mph there. However I believe a pair got to do the 1tpd that ran non-stop from Tonbridge to Ashford, so would have done 100mph then, but that service hasn't run in covid times.

 

[WesternBiker]

Given away free with the Railway Magazine in 2005 after a record run (36m 5s) by a loaded 377 from London Bridge. Now on YouTube

They had special permission to do 100 mph at certain 90 mph locations and at one place you could (can) hear driver Peter Mantell saying 'come on, old girl!' as 377 472 struggled to reach 100. They had someone in the cab with him who had all the speed restrictions, braking points, etc, on a clipboard, but Peter knew them all. He calls them out as he goes. Part of the pleasure of the video is to see a very professional and experienced driver at work.

Great video - thank you for posting. As you say, a real pleasure to see a professional driver at work, though the limitation of the 377 at various points is clear.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Given away free with the Railway Magazine in 2005 after a record run (36m 5s) by a loaded 377 from London Bridge. Now on YouTube

They had special permission to do 100 mph at certain 90 mph locations and at one place you could (can) hear driver Peter Mantell saying 'come on, old girl!' as 377 472 struggled to reach 100. They had someone in the cab with him who had all the speed restrictions, braking points, etc, on a clipboard, but Peter knew them all. He calls them out as he goes. Part of the pleasure of the video is to see a very professional and experienced driver at work.

Given it's over 50 miles, then to do it in that time the journey must have averaged 80mph start to stop. So that's impressive.

 

[AM9]

I thought until recently power supply wasn't strong enough to permit electric stock doing over 90mph between St Pancras and Bedford? 377/5s now primarily do Maidstone East line operations and definitely can't do 100mph there. However I believe a pair got to do the 1tpd that ran non-stop from Tonbridge to Ashford, so would have done 100mph then, but that service hasn't run in covid times.

The 377/5s were introduced from new in 2009 when there were already some loaned 377/2s. They were normally given the fast diagrams so their running was in the MML fasts which are 100mph cleared. I think that it was around then that the AT/booster feeds were being installed so with the lower demands of the 319s (which only ever ran as 4 or 4-car consists) power didn't seem to be a constraint. Possible Bald Rick would have the definitive answer.