• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

3rd Rail Legislation

Status
Not open for further replies.

EMU_Man

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2012
Messages
10
I've read several times on this forum and elsewhere, that there is legislation that prohibits laying of any more 3rd rail (except maybe as "infill") and often citing "safety" as the reason. Several people posted to this effect in the thread about Overground at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75509 - I have copied a few quotes from that thread below.

Please can someone point me to the actual legislation that says this? I have looked and haven't found anything yet. The closest I've found is the 2005 Railways Act (I think) where the Secretary of State asked railway companies to draw up proposals for converting the Southern DC network - this was for performance and reliability reasons, not safety.

Does real legislation exist to prohibit the laying of new 3rd rail? If so, where?!?!
Thanks!

A few of those quotes from the Overground thread:
Thirdly third rail rail would not be permitted to be put down as its an area where third rail does not exist, there is no infill.

Indeed. Doing otherwise would be illogical. And probably wouldn't be permitted anyway.

Because safety case for it means no more new DC just OHLE unless it's infill now.

I believe you accurately quote current policy witrh respect to third rail.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,611
Location
In the cab with the paper
Has anyone actually mentioned that it is prohibited due to legislation? I have no inside knowledge, but I was under the impression that the expansion of 3rd rail electrification was limited due to policy.

While it has it's fans, it is a Victorian technology best suited to light rail system than a modern mainline railway. It requires more feeder stations than overhead electrification, doesn't deliver as much power to the trains and is limited to 100mph maximum speed. It is also vulnerable to certain weather conditions that can paralyse the entire network.

O L Leigh
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,666
Location
Yorkshire
No-one seems to have said it's illegal - just less safe than OHLE. Presumably 3rd rail is rather more dangerous for people around the railway (even if they shouldn't be there) so Network Rail are mindful of the chances of being sued.
 

SETCommuter

Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
119
and is universally detested by all of us that have to use it daily on Southeastern !
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,474
I understand it's the 'Electricity at Work regulations' in the context of preventing access to live conductors by unskilled personnel which is usually alleged to be the reason for the so called ban, so it's a part of Health and Safety associated legislation.

When this has been discussed elsewhere an explicit statement about 'third rail DC' being outlawed is never actually pinned down, it just follows on from a basic electrical safety precaution in any workplace.

However it is useful to read the NR electrification RUS to gain some feel for how big 'infill' is allowed to be; at the time of writing they believed they had the option of using third rail to Salisbury for instance, their decision would have been made on economic rather than safety grounds...
 

EMU_Man

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2012
Messages
10
Has anyone actually mentioned that it is prohibited due to legislation?

Discussion on various forums includes comments similar to those I posted in the first post: there are "suggestions" that it's "prohibited" due to "safety", yet nobody ever references any real legislation. (And that is why I'm asking if there is any real legislation!)

I did find this: http://eorailway.co.uk/departments/rolling-stock/emus/
Paragraph 2 clearly states that "Unfortunately due to the costs, safety issues and legislation, there are no plans to re-electrify the branch."

So, yes, some people believe there is legislation to prevent additional 3rd rail lines being laid.

So I'm trying to find out if legislation really does exist, or if it's one of these things where mis-information, rumour and hearsay become "fact" ....
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
The legislation they refer to will be the more general Health and Safety At work act and the associated regulations. These will require them to assess the safety implications of restoring electrification. The assesement may well be that they cannot economically come up with a plan to adequetly manage to the risks involved, especially on a volunteer run railway.

You may need to get a better understanding of how H&S actually works in practice- the legislation itself prescribes and proscribes very little, the regulations are more detailed, buit the bulk is dealt with by applying principles.
 

EMU_Man

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2012
Messages
10
No-one seems to have said it's illegal - just less safe than OHLE.

The quotes I gave "suggest" it's illegal. The same things appear on various forums. Always suggestions that it's "prohibited" for "safety" reasons, but never any reference to any legislation, nor any reference to safety reports - nothing, zilch, nada, nowt.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,666
Location
Yorkshire
The quotes I gave "suggest" it's illegal. The same things appear on various forums. Always suggestions that it's "prohibited" for "safety" reasons, but never any reference to any legislation, nor any reference to safety reports - nothing, zilch, nada, nowt.

I'd disagree with that. Not permitted does not have to mean not permitted by legislation. A "safety case" would not mean it was deemed illegal, just potentially less safe than OHLE. If a company had performed a comparison between safety cases for 3rd rail and OHLE, found OHLE to be safer and then proceeded with 3rd rail I'd expect things to go badly for them if anything ever happened which then caused them to be investigated. This may then lead them to come up with a policy of not permitting new 3rd rail.
 

EMU_Man

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2012
Messages
10
The legislation they refer to will be the more general Health and Safety At work act and the associated regulations. These will require them to assess the safety implications of restoring electrification. The assesement may well be that they cannot economically come up with a plan to adequetly manage to the risks involved, especially on a volunteer run railway.

All railway operations, volunteer or professional, steam, diesel, electric, horse or whatever, need a "safety case": a full assessment of all risks and how to mitigate and manage those risks. It has to be done regardless of whether a 3rd rail exists or not. Likewise, volunteers and staff need to be trained, regardless of whether a 3rd rail exists or not.

A safety case for an electrified railway will be the same as for a steam/diesel railway, but with extra bits (extra risks identified, mitigated, extra training etc). Sure that takes extra work which takes extra time and possibly costs more, but those are time and cost issues, not legislation issues.

So if the EOR, as you suggest, meant that they weren't going to electrify based on costs, why have they mentioned legislation? Surely the "legislation" thing must come from somewhere??

You may need to get a better understanding of how H&S actually works in practice- the legislation itself prescribes and proscribes very little, the regulations are more detailed, buit the bulk is dealt with by applying principles.

I spent many years as a driver on the DC main line. I had to walk through electrified yards, cross electrified lines etc. We all had proper training (PTS etc).

We often had "foreign drivers" bring a loco down to the Southern. When they got out and started crossing the track, they were totally paranoid about the 3rd rail - they'd step over, lifting their legs as high as possible, even where kick-boards were installed - was so funny to see.

Fact is, if you brush against the side of the 3rd rail, you'll get a kick up the @r5e. It's unlikely to kill you just from that. If you fall flat on it then you're likely to fry. It will burn, it might kill, might not. Once you touch the live rail, you discharge the current to earth and trip the circuit breakers in the Electrical Control Centre - the current goes off. Electrocution is likely to be very short, hence likelihood of burns rather than instant death. ECC staff will reset the breakers, and if you're still in a position to discharge current (ie, lying face down on it and touching the ground), you'll get another jolt and the circuit breakers will trip again. It's been a while since I was employed on the Southern and I can't remember the exact process, but ECC staff will end up waiting one minute before resetting the breakers - this gives time for staff to put a short circuit bar down and/or put out an emergency call - when ECC staff reset the breaker again, if current stays on, they leave it on (line will be clear) - if it trips again, they'll wait 3 minutes (I think) - and if it trips again, it doesn't get reset until someone has checked things out properly (track walk etc) (a current railway employee might be able to confirm / correct this)

I now run a business and employ staff. We have to do risk assessments and build safety cases and ensure staff are properly trained to do their jobs safely. We have to do this regardless of the tasks involved. It's a pain, it's a hassle, but it's what we have to do.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
They say "legislation" becuase all that paper work you describe is ultimately required by legislation.

It is no use explaining to us how to work safely around 3rd rail, we all appreciate it is possible (see: the lack of doom and death each day). We're also not the EOR descion makers.

You seem to be getting hung up on the idea that "legislation" is all that's stopping them- when you yourself appreciate that cost, as they mention (first, if that's significant) is a factor.
 

EMU_Man

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2012
Messages
10
If a company had performed a comparison between safety cases for 3rd rail and OHLE, found OHLE to be safer and then proceeded with 3rd rail I'd expect things to go badly for them if anything ever happened which then caused them to be investigated.

The point of safety cases is to identify and manage risks, not simply to choose one commonly-used system over another. So long as all risks have been identified and proper procedures are put in place to reduce risks and manage risks, there shouldn't be a problem.

And this is going off-topic. I'm looking for the legislation that is "suggested" exists by numerous posters on various forums.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They say "legislation" becuase all that paper work you describe is ultimately required by legislation.

So are you saying there is no legislation that prevents 3rd rail being used on new / preserved railways?

You seem to be getting hung up on the idea that "legislation" is all that's stopping them- when you yourself appreciate that cost, as they mention (first, if that's significant) is a factor.

No - you need to read the first post again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think you underestimate the seriousness of burns.

Sorry - I seem to be missing the part where you refer to the legislation I asked about .....
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
if the EOR, as you suggest, meant that they weren't going to electrify based on costs, why have they mentioned legislation?

It could just be because it's easy for people/ firms to hide behind health and safety as a reason not to do something, like they hide behind data protection - rather than any specific legislation.

H&S is always a handy excuse not to do something that you didn't really want to do.

(I say this as a First Aider who gets frustrated at people blaming H&S for things that are nothing to do with H&S and are often just to do with "we don't want to get sued")
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,666
Location
Yorkshire
The point of safety cases is to identify and manage risks, not simply to choose one commonly-used system over another. So long as all risks have been identified and proper procedures are put in place to reduce risks and manage risks, there shouldn't be a problem.

And this is going off-topic. I'm looking for the legislation that is "suggested" exists by numerous posters on various forums.

Identify, manage *and establish the cost of managing* risks - and from that, choose one over the other.

I think the reason no-one's pointing you towards specific legislation is because there isn't any that's that specific - . However H&S legislation may make the cost of managing the risks of 3rd rail higher than managing risks for OHLE - as jopsuk described in post #7. However you seem determined to have an argument with us.
 

Wyvern

Established Member
Joined
27 Oct 2009
Messages
1,573
Doesnt all new work have to comply with European standards except where there are grandfather rights?
 

hluraven

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2012
Messages
131
It could just be because it's easy for people/ firms to hide behind health and safety as a reason not to do something, like they hide behind data protection - rather than any specific legislation

Absolutely, the vast majority of "health and safety" stories actually have nothing to do with legislation whatsoever, it is just the same as the made-up "EU bans straight bananas" type nonsense that preceded it. The occasions where health and safety is cited as the reason for doing/not doing something, it is usually not legislation but a fear of being sued that is the root cause.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
EMU Man: do you happen to be involved with a preservation/restoration project involving 3rd rail-powered traction that is based at or could be based that EOR/ Is that the real root here?
 

EMU_Man

Member
Joined
5 Dec 2012
Messages
10
EMU Man: do you happen to be involved with a preservation/restoration project ..... Is that the real root here?

No. It's like I said in the first post, people keep saying it's prohibited / illegal etc and I was just trying to find out if it really is prohibited, or if it's a case of people on various forums talking utter nonsense. It seems the latter is true.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
No. It's like I said in the first post, people keep saying it's prohibited / illegal etc and I was just trying to find out if it really is prohibited, or if it's a case of people on various forums talking utter nonsense. It seems the latter is true.

I think the answer to your question lies in the 1920s. After WW1 the subject of railway electrification standards was examined by at least 2 government sponsored committees, the Pringle Committee and the Weir Committee.

Following the recommendations of these committees that there should be 2 systems only 750V dc 3rd rail and 1500V dc overhead the Government took powers to ensure any electrification scheme had to be approved by the Board of Trade (later other ministries) and if they were not of the standard type approval would not be granted.

In the subsequent 80 years the standards have been revised, notably with the introduction of 25kV overhead, and other systems deleted for general use. It is these powers which restrict the use of electrification systems in the UK. However as has been pointed out on previous threads the DLR was allowed to use 3rd rail, but protected 3rd rail from the 1980s so it is the case that a good proposal will not be rejected out of hand.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
It's not a case of "utter nonsense"- it's more a case of "poor understanding" or "ppoor summary". It is effectively banned (or near enough) as a result of the enactment of responsibilites under legislation- but there is no specific law saying "though shalt not build a 3rd rail railway". Saying that it is "prohbited" or even "illegal" is clumsy shorthand- though no doubt many people believe it to really be the case.

It's not as clear cut as you seem to want it to be.
 

Oliver

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2007
Messages
476
Well I'd like to see the third rail extended from Worting Junction to Salisbury. In the absence of dual-powered stock, I envisage an hourly diesel fast for the Exeter line, and two electric stoppers/semifasts per hour from Waterloo to Salisbury, maybe dividing from Southampton line trains at Basingstoke. Anyone suggest something better?
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
Yes. OHL. What with the SWML south of Basingstoke being wired up. It would be utter madness now to use 3rd rail to Salisbury- especially as there's no chance of Salisbury being electrified in any form before then.
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
I am not aware of legislation, be it regulations from Europe, Certainly no UK act was ever established.

No problems when the Chester line was energised, nothing to stop 3rd rail when the Wrexham to Bidston study was undertaken recient.

We have a footpath across the A493 at Rossett(Wrexham Expressway), this is one of the busiest Dual Carriageway roads in North Wales, yet has a footpath
across it, this is far more dangerous than any 3rd rail with a footpath on it.


Bob
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,765
in America Metra (Chicago transit authority) was prosecuted because someone was electrocuted as a result of going to a level crossing, walking along the line to the end of the conductor (as the level crossing was obviously in a gap) and urinating on the rail.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,137
Location
0036
(I say this as a First Aider who gets frustrated at people blaming H&S for things that are nothing to do with H&S and are often just to do with "we don't want to get sued")

That, or it's a condition of a liability insurance policy held. Which I suppose all boils down to the same thing.

Once while working as an administrator for a sports company which was operating a tournament, someone asked us to reset a dislocated finger. We got quite an argument when we declined on the grounds of not being insured to do so.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,693
Location
Northwich
Relating to DC vs OHE. Which uses the most electricity to operate? I know AC is expressed as the route mean square value while DC is a constant value so the values aren't a direct comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
nothing to stop 3rd rail when the Wrexham to Bidston study was undertaken recient.

Except the funding required for it.
 

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,194
Location
London
in America Metra (Chicago transit authority) was prosecuted because someone was electrocuted as a result of going to a level crossing, walking along the line to the end of the conductor (as the level crossing was obviously in a gap) and urinating on the rail.

I was under the impression that urine as a constant flow replicates rainfall by being in droplet form and does not conduct electricity.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,137
Location
0036
They went and checked it out using an electric fence on Brainiac: Science Abuse once, but I forget what the conclusion was.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top