3tph on North Downs Line

[Deepgreen]

Pleased to see that GWR are still tweaking the timetable and have been able to restore some of the linkages they recently lost. In particular since last week the 0910 Guildford to Reading now stops all stations filling that horrendous 90 minute gap north from Farnborough North and replacing some of the lost linkages. It wasn't on journeys planners at first but is now, although no mention of the improvement on their Website. Hopefully further 'improvements' to come, at least to get us back to where we were at the start of last month.

What do you mean by the term "linkages"?

 

[Deepgreen]

Maybe increased platform capacity but actually not used as efficiently as it was before.

Indeed, and as predicted here by many during the planning of the botched Redhill project. The layout is inefficient, and its usage is worse still, owing to the intransigence of the station operator.

 

[swt_passenger]

What do you mean by the term "linkages"?

I think it might mean short journeys between nearby stations were lost for longer periods due to skip stopping.

 

[JN114]

Sadly, it seems 2tph is a struggle - various rail and signalling faults have bedevilled the line for several weeks. These are the stats for through Reading - Gatwick services for the last 5 working days to Wednesday:-

Timetabled through services from Reading to Gatwick Airport: 78

Of which:
Cancelled (whole or in part): 28 (36%)
10 or more minutes late: 8 (10%)
5-9 minutes late: 18 (23%)

Only 31% of services have arrived within 5 minutes of schedule. This is pathetic. Airport passengers can be forgiven for not bothering with the GWR service due to extremely poor reliability.

Source: https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Reading+(RDG)&To=Gatwick+Airport+(GTW)&TimTyp=A&TimDay=A&Days=Wk&TimPer=7d&dtFr=20/09/2018&dtTo=27/09/2018&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=11&ShwAdv=ShwAdv&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&SvcCtR=SvcCtR&SvcCtC=SvcCtC&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt=

I can’t speak for Monday or Wednesday but Tuesday AM NR Wessex instructed GWR to reduce their service to hourly due to signalling problems at Crowthorne. The Redhill stoppers were run in preference to the Gatwicks as it would mean all stations were served either direct by GWR or connecting at Redhill for Gatwick.

 

[infobleep]

The other week due to signalling issues South Western Railway was starting and terminating trains at Wokingham instead of Reading.

I never seem to see GWR do that but they do regularly terminates Redhill. This can lead to delays of almost an hour, as you might arrive just after a train to Gatwick has departed and the next one might not be for almost 30 minutes.

Still at least GWR operate the older style delay repay so no compensation is due.

On Sundays there is a longer wait at Gatwick Airport for GWR trains. What is the reason they can't run to Sunday times during the week, so that less trains get terminated short?

During week day disruption I am surprised when a train isn't terminated short.

What is the average maximum delay that won't trigger a termination early at Redhill during the week?

 

[infobleep]

Indeed, and as predicted here by many during the planning of the botched Redhill project. The layout is inefficient, and its usage is worse still, owing to the intransigence of the station operator.

What do you mean by intransigence of the station operator?

I can’t speak for Monday or Wednesday but Tuesday AM NR Wessex instructed GWR to reduce their service to hourly due to signalling problems at Crowthorne. The Redhill stoppers were run in preference to the Gatwicks as it would mean all stations were served either direct by GWR or connecting at Redhill for Gatwick.

The problem is that the connections at Redhill are awful if one is delayed. You can be waiting close to 30 minutes for a connection. Sometimes you can arrive into Gatwick Airport less than 10 minutes the next GWR Gatwick Airport train. Obviously not if none of them are running of course.

I think the issue is you have poor reliability of the NFL coupled with a poor timetable to the south of Redhill or at least one that never seems to connect with NFL trains during disruption

 

[infobleep]

I did see something very rare the other week though. A GWR train ran between Redhill and Gatwick Airport only. Never seen that happen before. I wasnt on it and I'm relying on National Rail Enquiries so I assume it actually ran.

Cant be too often that occurs. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the first time this year.

 

[JN114]

The problem is that the connections at Redhill are awful if one is delayed. You can be waiting close to 30 minutes for a connection. Sometimes you can arrive into Gatwick Airport less than 10 minutes the next GWR Gatwick Airport train. Obviously not if none of them are running of course.

But it’s the bigger picture though. If I’m told I can only run one train per hour I want to serve the most passengers possible - that’s done by running the trains that stop all stations, and a less-than-ideal connection at Redhill is infinitely preferable to leaving over half a dozen stations with no service whatsoever for an indefinite period of time - with not being allowed to run more than 10 or so late south of Redhill (NR Sussex instruction) extra stops in the Gatwicks just aren’t on the cards.

 

[JN114]

The other week due to signalling issues South Western Railway was starting and terminating trains at Wokingham instead of Reading.

I never seem to see GWR do that but they do regularly terminates Redhill. This can lead to delays of almost an hour, as you might arrive just after a train to Gatwick has departed and the next one might not be for almost 30 minutes.

Still at least GWR operate the older style delay repay so no compensation is due.

On Sundays there is a longer wait at Gatwick Airport for GWR trains. What is the reason they can't run to Sunday times during the week, so that less trains get terminated short?

During week day disruption I am surprised when a train isn't terminated short.

What is the average maximum delay that won't trigger a termination early at Redhill during the week?

Almost all GWR services over the North Downs line have a crew change at Reading, and with the SWRs due to depart after the GWR services there isn’t any practical way of getting crews to Wokingham in time for a right time start.

SWR on the other hand as far as I’m aware are all/mostly same crew in/out.

As eluded too upthread terminating at Redhill is in part due to instructions from NR Sussex to prevent delays on the North Downs adversely affecting the Brighton Main Line.

 

[infobleep]

But it’s the bigger picture though. If I’m told I can only run one train per hour I want to serve the most passengers possible - that’s done by running the trains that stop all stations, and a less-than-ideal connection at Redhill is infinitely preferable to leaving over half a dozen stations with no service whatsoever for an indefinite period of time - with not being allowed to run more than 10 or so late south of Redhill (NR Sussex instruction) extra stops in the Gatwicks just aren’t on the cards.

I'm not criticising you following orders. I do the same. I'm just pointing out the issues as a result of this and yes missing stations isn't good either.

Do controllers have much say when it comes to running trains or do Network Rail have the final say on the matter?

Do NR Wessez and NR Sussex discuss plans with one another during disruption?

 

[infobleep]

Almost all GWR services over the North Downs line have a crew change at Reading, and with the SWRs due to depart after the GWR services there isn’t any practical way of getting crews to Wokingham in time for a right time start.

SWR on the other hand as far as I’m aware are all/mostly same crew in/out.

As eluded too upthread terminating at Redhill is in part due to instructions from NR Sussex to prevent delays on the North Downs adversely affecting the Brighton Main Line.

Thanks for explaining that. It makes more sense now. Do they ever have the same crew continue from Reading or do they change them every time?

Do they ever run Govia Thameslink Railway trains fast to stop them delaying Great Western Railway trains? I have in the past been stuck behind.a stopping service. This was prior to the May timetable change though so this may now be a rarity. I'm not saying it was common before. Just that I experienced it.

I find it interesting how it all works.

 

[hwl]

Do they ever run Govia Thameslink Railway trains fast to stop them delaying Great Western Railway trains?

Just think about the passenger numbers involved and that since May the GTR service levels via Redhill has been a lot worse...

GTR (TL) only likely to be skip stopped if they are trying to get them to the Core on time.

 

[JN114]

Do controllers have much say when it comes to running trains or do Network Rail have the final say on the matter?

The NR train running controllers have the ultimate say on what runs - think of them kind of like the referees - they take what we as a TOC want to do, and SWR/XC/GTR etc and decide what is achievable on their infrastructure. We share an office with the Western Train Running Controllers so it’s perhaps easier to plead our case with them - and while I’m probably on the wrong side of the fence to get a fair view I suspect SWR strongly influence Wessex and GTR strongly influence Sussex decision making.

Do NR Wessez and NR Sussex discuss plans with one another during disruption?

I don’t know - I don’t get to see what either are doing except when I’m on the be other end of the phone to one or t’other. Certainly if we have an incident on say the Basingstoke line Western TRC and liaise with Wessex TRC to make sure they’re on the same page.

Thanks for explaining that. It makes more sense now. Do they ever have the same crew continue from Reading or do they change them every time?

There are a few which are same crew in/out of Reading with no break. I still wouldn’t fancy turning round at Wokingham.

The key issue with management of disruption on the North Downs is that while it’s a very important service to us, we’re essentially a secondary route that gets in the way of bigger and busier flows on Wessex and Sussex patch. Reading to Wokingham we’re in the way of the Electrics to Waterloo, so they don’t want our late running being imported/causing cancellations to Waterloo trains. At Guildford/Shalford it’s the Portsmouths. Same story with Redhill - Gatwick and the Brighton Main Line.

If we ever see 3tph then perhaps strategies will change, because there’s greater scope for cancellations and delays to our services.

 

[Deepgreen]

What do you mean by intransigence of the station operator?

I mean that, for example, the use of the now-bay road platform 1 is very poorly-managed, with terminating trains usually travelling right to the far end of the platform, meaning a long walk in the rain to/from, and a much greater chance of missing a connection. Repeated requests to the station management to change this passenger-unfriendly practice have been ignored. If another train needs to 'come on top' at the platform, then it's easy enough to move up in those cases (as I have seen many times before). It's another case of operating convenience trumping passenger benefits.

 

[Deepgreen]

The key issue with management of disruption on the North Downs is that while it’s a very important service to us, we’re essentially a secondary route that gets in the way of bigger and busier flows on Wessex and Sussex patch. Reading to Wokingham we’re in the way of the Electrics to Waterloo, so they don’t want our late running being imported/causing cancellations to Waterloo trains. At Guildford/Shalford it’s the Portsmouths. Same story with Redhill - Gatwick and the Brighton Main Line.

If we ever see 3tph then perhaps strategies will change, because there’s greater scope for cancellations and delays to our services.

Perhaps the passengers on this "secondary" route might be interested in 'secondary' fares levels, then. The infrequency of the NDL service means that missed connections are even more painful than on the main lines it links.

 

[JN114]

Perhaps the passengers on this "secondary" route might be interested in 'secondary' fares levels, then. The infrequency of the NDL service means that missed connections are even more painful than on the main lines it links.

Any issues with NR Wessex and Sussex regulation policy should be brought up with them.

 

[infobleep]

I mean that, for example, the use of the now-bay road platform 1 is very poorly-managed, with terminating trains usually travelling right to the far end of the platform, meaning a long walk in the rain to/from, and a much greater chance of missing a connection. Repeated requests to the station management to change this passenger-unfriendly practice have been ignored. If another train needs to 'come on top' at the platform, then it's easy enough to move up in those cases (as I have seen many times before). It's another case of operating convenience trumping passenger benefits.

Surely that's nothing to do with the station itself but signallers and TOC operating practices.

For example I don't believe 8 car and 4 car trains at Guildford go to the end of the platform so why do they at other stations or perhaps it should be why at Guildford don't they, seeing as it seems to be in the minority.

 

[infobleep]

Any issues with NR Wessex and Sussex regulation policy should be brought up with them.

They don't set the fares though.

 

[FenMan]

The NR train running controllers have the ultimate say on what runs - think of them kind of like the referees - they take what we as a TOC want to do, and SWR/XC/GTR etc and decide what is achievable on their infrastructure. We share an office with the Western Train Running Controllers so it’s perhaps easier to plead our case with them - and while I’m probably on the wrong side of the fence to get a fair view I suspect SWR strongly influence Wessex and GTR strongly influence Sussex decision making.



I don’t know - I don’t get to see what either are doing except when I’m on the be other end of the phone to one or t’other. Certainly if we have an incident on say the Basingstoke line Western TRC and liaise with Wessex TRC to make sure they’re on the same page.



There are a few which are same crew in/out of Reading with no break. I still wouldn’t fancy turning round at Wokingham.

The key issue with management of disruption on the North Downs is that while it’s a very important service to us, we’re essentially a secondary route that gets in the way of bigger and busier flows on Wessex and Sussex patch. Reading to Wokingham we’re in the way of the Electrics to Waterloo, so they don’t want our late running being imported/causing cancellations to Waterloo trains. At Guildford/Shalford it’s the Portsmouths. Same story with Redhill - Gatwick and the Brighton Main Line.

If we ever see 3tph then perhaps strategies will change, because there’s greater scope for cancellations and delays to our services.

As most of the recent delays have been down to infrastructure failures (defective track and signalling issues) I'd like to think that GWR is pressing Network Rail very hard for a recovery plan.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the passengers on this "secondary" route might be interested in 'secondary' fares levels, then. The infrequency of the NDL service means that missed connections are even more painful than on the main lines it links.

Relatively speaking the fares on the North Downs line are at 'secondary' levels.

It is typically cheaper to travel from a western destination to Redhill than it is to London
e.g. Reading to Redhill anytime day return is £27.20.
Reading to Waterloo via Staines anytime day return is £33.90.
Reading to Paddington anytime day return is £47.70.

Similarly with these:
Wokingham to Guildford anytime day return is £11.60
Wokingham to Staines anytime day return is £16.00
Bagshot to Guildford anytime day return is £15.60

Fares from 'the West' to North Downs line destinations are typically only priced at a few £1 over the fare to Reading.

 

[The Ham]

Relatively speaking the fares on the North Downs line are at 'secondary' levels.

It is typically cheaper to travel from a western destination to Redhill than it is to London
e.g. Reading to Redhill anytime day return is £27.20.
Reading to Waterloo via Staines anytime day return is £33.90.
Reading to Paddington anytime day return is £47.70.

Similarly with these:
Wokingham to Guildford anytime day return is £11.60
Wokingham to Staines anytime day return is £16.00
Bagshot to Guildford anytime day return is £15.60

Fares from 'the West' to North Downs line destinations are typically only priced at a few £1 over the fare to Reading.

Often, for any time tickets, it's a little cheaper to get a ticket to somewhere beyond Guildford than it is to get a ticket to Guildford. (As an example, to Ash when traveling from the South/East.)

 

[cactustwirly]

Relatively speaking the fares on the North Downs line are at 'secondary' levels.

It is typically cheaper to travel from a western destination to Redhill than it is to London
e.g. Reading to Redhill anytime day return is £27.20.
Reading to Waterloo via Staines anytime day return is £33.90.
Reading to Paddington anytime day return is £47.70.

Similarly with these:
Wokingham to Guildford anytime day return is £11.60
Wokingham to Staines anytime day return is £16.00
Bagshot to Guildford anytime day return is £15.60

Fares from 'the West' to North Downs line destinations are typically only priced at a few £1 over the fare to Reading.

It's cheaper to go via London, if you're traveling from somewhere like Maidenhead to Gatwick

 

[JonathanH]

It's cheaper to go via London, if you're traveling from somewhere like Maidenhead to Gatwick

Huh? Only for an off peak day return - all the other fares are cheaper via Reading despite the longer distance.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=MAI&dest=GTW

 

[Bikeman78]

I mean that, for example, the use of the now-bay road platform 1 is very poorly-managed, with terminating trains usually travelling right to the far end of the platform, meaning a long walk in the rain to/from, and a much greater chance of missing a connection. Repeated requests to the station management to change this passenger-unfriendly practice have been ignored. If another train needs to 'come on top' at the platform, then it's easy enough to move up in those cases (as I have seen many times before). It's another case of operating convenience trumping passenger benefits.

Every time someone mentions the Redhill rebuild it makes my blood boil! For what has been gained it was a total waste of money. Pretty much all London bound trains can still be accomodated in platform 2. The main user of platform 0 is the Reading trains so passengers now have further to walk to connect in or out of other trains. Platform 1 is basically the Tonbridge line bay platform. Given that the trains stop right at the north end, the Reading trains could use the south end of platform 1, which is exactly what they did before the rebuild.

 

[JonathanH]

Every time someone mentions the Redhill rebuild it makes my blood boil! For what has been gained it was a total waste of money. Pretty much all London bound trains can still be accomodated in platform 2. The main user of platform 0 is the Reading trains so passengers now have further to walk to connect in or out of other trains. Platform 1 is basically the Tonbridge line bay platform. Given that the trains stop right at the north end, the Reading trains could use the south end of platform 1, which is exactly what they did before the rebuild.

The current morning peak service wouldn't have been possible under the old layout (although it is debateable whether an alternative service pattern could have run instead). The Gatwick / Reigate to Victoria trains join in platform 0 whilst a Horsham to Bedford train passes through platform 2 and platform 1 is occupied. At about 0739, platforms 0, 1 and 2 are all occupied:

Platform 0 by the Gatwick portion of the 0745 train to Victoria
Platform 1 by a Tonbridge train and a Reading to Gatwick service
Platform 2 by the 0739 Bedford service

The rebuild has also made platform 2 more accessible from the north when there is an issue in platform 3.

I agree that the timetable doesn't immediately appear to make the most of the work that was done.

However, getting this back on topic, if 3tph to Gatwick ever happens, the Reading to Gatwick and Gatwick to Reading trains need to be at Redhill at the same time and, given the current timing of other trains, that also does require the new infrastructure.

If the extra platform ever happens at Reigate and Bedford to Gatwick services get diverted to start / terminate at Reigate, the removal of splitting / joining at Redhill (ie running a Victoria to Gatwick stopping service via Redhill with no portions) will simplify platform occupation.

 

[infobleep]

The current morning peak service wouldn't have been possible under the old layout (although it is debateable whether an alternative service pattern could have run instead). The Gatwick / Reigate to Victoria trains join in platform 0 whilst a Horsham to Bedford train passes through platform 2 and platform 1 is occupied. At about 0739, platforms 0, 1 and 2 are all occupied:

Platform 0 by the Gatwick portion of the 0745 train to Victoria
Platform 1 by a Tonbridge train and a Reading to Gatwick service
Platform 2 by the 0739 Bedford service

The rebuild has also made platform 2 more accessible from the north when there is an issue in platform 3.

I agree that the timetable doesn't immediately appear to make the most of the work that was done.

However, getting this back on topic, if 3tph to Gatwick ever happens, the Reading to Gatwick and Gatwick to Reading trains need to be at Redhill at the same time and, given the current timing of other trains, that also does require the new infrastructure.

If the extra platform ever happens at Reigate and Bedford to Gatwick services get diverted to start / terminate at Reigate, the removal of splitting / joining at Redhill (ie running a Victoria to Gatwick stopping service via Redhill with no portions) will simplify platform occupation.

If they do ever run three trains, will it likely just lead to more trains being terminated early or started short at Redhill, due to late running?

 

[JN114]

If they do ever run three trains, will it likely just lead to more trains being terminated early or started short at Redhill, due to late running?

I’ve been off for 10 days but apparently there’s some unrest amongst GWR senior management at N Downs train service performance of late (largely due to a number of ESRs between Aldershot Jcns and Guildford), which is leading to new policies being drafted.

The big problem with Gatwick is it’s too congested; and the timetable at Redhill just isn’t conducive to any kind of service recovery. There’s not enough time at Gatwick to recover any late running, and the trains through Redhill are pathed so tightly that if the GW misses its path it is regulated for everything under the sun and gets later. The only option nowadays is to bury the train in the bay road at Redhill and bring it back out right time.

3tph may actually bring some respite as the option will hopefully exist to run the fast late to Gatwick to form the semi-fast; and terminate the semi at Redhill to restart the Fast right time.

 

[JonathanH]

I’ve been off for 10 days but apparently there’s some unrest amongst GWR senior management at N Downs train service performance of late (largely due to a number of ESRs between Aldershot Jcns and Guildford), which is leading to new policies being drafted.

It seems to be really unfortunate of late. Today a signal failure messing up the service in the evening peak.

The big problem with Gatwick is it’s too congested; and the timetable at Redhill just isn’t conducive to any kind of service recovery. There’s not enough time at Gatwick to recover any late running, and the trains through Redhill are pathed so tightly that if the GW misses its path it is regulated for everything under the sun and gets later. The only option nowadays is to bury the train in the bay road at Redhill and bring it back out right time.

Gatwick timetabling is terrible since they started terminating Thameslink trains there instead of Three Bridges and using platform 3 northbound as well as southbound. GWR through Redhill are followed really closely by the Gatwick to Bedford service and the Victoria to Reigate train. Get down to Gatwick a few minutes late and the Gatwick to Bedford train is in the way stopping all stations to Redhill. GWR terminating at Redhill has to be careful not to box the Tonbridge train into the top end of platform 1.

How did it all get this bad?

3tph may actually bring some respite as the option will hopefully exist to run the fast late to Gatwick to form the semi-fast; and terminate the semi at Redhill to restart the Fast right time.

Isn't the proposed off-peak pattern simply to run another train on the opposite side of the hour with the same stops - eg xx00 and xx30 from Gatwick, xx02 and xx32 from Reading with the stopper running xx20 from Reading / xx00ish from Redhill and being overtaken at Guildford?

 

[infobleep]

I’ve been off for 10 days but apparently there’s some unrest amongst GWR senior management at N Downs train service performance of late (largely due to a number of ESRs between Aldershot Jcns and Guildford), which is leading to new policies being drafted.

The big problem with Gatwick is it’s too congested; and the timetable at Redhill just isn’t conducive to any kind of service recovery. There’s not enough time at Gatwick to recover any late running, and the trains through Redhill are pathed so tightly that if the GW misses its path it is regulated for everything under the sun and gets later. The only option nowadays is to bury the train in the bay road at Redhill and bring it back out right time.

3tph may actually bring some respite as the option will hopefully exist to run the fast late to Gatwick to form the semi-fast; and terminate the semi at Redhill to restart the Fast right time.

There is time to recover on a Sunday though at Gatwick. I've not studied the timetable to see why that cannot be the case during the week but I'm there is a reason for this. It would be ideal.

It's interesting that you say trains are pathed tightly at Redhill. I don't doubt that's the case, yet if a train is cancelled, passengers can end up being almost an hour late. So although pathed tightly somewhere, it's still not enabling passengers to get to Gatwick Airport quickly when it is canned early.

Will be interesting to see what the new policies do. Most of the time when I see delays I don't see a reason given, at least not on National Rail Enquiries App individual train running page.

 

[JonathanH]

The Sunday timetable has long allocated four rather than three units to the Gatwick service.

If 3tph could justify allocating 7 units rather than 6 to provide a half hourly service you could potentially have a longer layover at each end.

However, Thameslink block platform 2 at Gatwick for most of the day and platforms 1 and 3 are needed for through trains so it isn't clear that a longer turn round at Gatwick could be accommodated without a trip to the holding sidings at Gatwick.

Moving the Reading to Gatwick service to xx20 looks like it might be possible if you could use an extra unit depending on SWR services - it would be tightly timed against the Bedford to Gatwick service at Redhill which stops all stations to Gatwick from Redhill.

This would solve the problem of two trains leaving Reigate for Redhill within four minutes and help with connections from Reigate to London Bridge. However, it would also lead to an uneven service pattern between Redhill and Gatwick.