3tph on North Downs Line

[infobleep]

NRE is more powerful than the "open" sites like RTT - operators can weight certain services or flows to encourage passengers to travel certain routes - I don't know what the mechanism for doing so is, but it's normally made mention of in our weekend engineering briefs if it's been done. In this instance while slower than the RRB, there is significantly more capacity via Clapham Junction. By dissuading direct passengers off the buses, it frees up spaces on the bus for those that don't have the option of the higher capacity, more circuitous route. All operators have seen the chaos that ensues on busy routes where it isn't practical - for whatever reason - to provide what would be normally considered "sufficient" capacity - Redhill to Three Bridges RRS a couple of years ago being a prime example.

Hopefully that answers your questions. It's not NDL 3tph related though really so further discussion should probably go in another thread.

Thanks for that. I did think about starting another thread but decided to stick it in here. I will start a separate thread as you've made some intretsing points and I have more generalised questions.

 

[JonathanH]

As noted in the May 2020 timetable changes thread, Great Western are one of the Train Companies who have already loaded some preliminary information on their proposed timetables into the open data feeds used by RTT etc. While it must be taken with a pinch of salt and is subject to change, the information there will give some idea of how 3tph on the North Downs line is meant to work.

The basic structure off peak appears to use 9 units on the following basic pattern

From Reading
xx01 Reading - Wokingham - Blackwater - North Camp - Guildford - Dorking Deepdene - Reigate - Redhill - Gatwick Airport
xx20 Reading - Wokingham - all stations to Ash - Guildford - stations to Redhill (alternating Chilworth / Gomshall with Dorking West / Betchworth)
xx36 Reading - Wokingham - Guildford - Dorking Deepdene - Reigate - Redhill - Gatwick Airport.

The xx36 overtakes the xx20 at Guildford

From Gatwick Airport / Redhill

xx00 Redhill - stations to Guildford - Ash - all stations to Wokingham - Reading (alternating Betchworth / Dorking West and Gomshall / Chilworth)
xx00 Gatwick Airport - Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene - Guildford - Wokingham - Reading
xx30 Gatwick Airport - Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene - Guildford - North Camp - Blackwater - Wokingham - Reading

The xx00 from Gatwick overtakes the xx00 from Redhill at Guildford.

The units working the xx01 from Reading / xx30 from Gatwick Airport are self-contained and effectively what runs now but on the opposite half hour. The units working the other services interwork on what appear to be quite heroic turnarounds at Reading - so stopper one cycle and fast the next - meaning that only six units are needed for the basic pattern.

All well and good.

However, in the peaks the structure gets quite messy with very few opportunities to pass at Guildford, so stoppers go to Gatwick, some fasts terminate at Redhill and possibly a lower frequency in the morning peak than later in the day, although it is possible that some morning trains aren't loaded since a trains don't appear to have balancing workings at present. I guess this is the result of a resource led timetable and the need to serve more stations. One really odd set up is the 0705 from Reading which runs to Guildford in 37 minutes calling at Wokingham, Blackwater and North Camp, then sits for 20 minutes before running to Redhill calling at Dorking Deepdene and Reigate. There are perhaps fewer trains to Gatwick Airport than they might have wished for in the peaks.

If 769s are eventually going to appear in May, perhaps 3tph will be deferred to allow for training on the new trains. Recent experience elsewhere suggests that it might not always be a good idea to introduce a new timetable at the same time as new trains.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The 769 units won’t be introduced in May. Later in the summer, at the earliest.

 

[infobleep]

As noted in the May 2020 timetable changes thread, Great Western are one of the Train Companies who have already loaded some preliminary information on their proposed timetables into the open data feeds used by RTT etc. While it must be taken with a pinch of salt and is subject to change, the information there will give some idea of how 3tph on the North Downs line is meant to work.

The basic structure off peak appears to use 9 units on the following basic pattern

From Reading
xx01 Reading - Wokingham - Blackwater - North Camp - Guildford - Dorking Deepdene - Reigate - Redhill - Gatwick Airport
xx20 Reading - Wokingham - all stations to Ash - Guildford - stations to Redhill (alternating Chilworth / Gomshall with Dorking West / Betchworth)
xx36 Reading - Wokingham - Guildford - Dorking Deepdene - Reigate - Redhill - Gatwick Airport.

The xx36 overtakes the xx20 at Guildford

From Gatwick Airport / Redhill

xx00 Redhill - stations to Guildford - Ash - all stations to Wokingham - Reading (alternating Betchworth / Dorking West and Gomshall / Chilworth)
xx00 Gatwick Airport - Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene - Guildford - Wokingham - Reading
xx30 Gatwick Airport - Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene - Guildford - North Camp - Blackwater - Wokingham - Reading

The xx00 from Gatwick overtakes the xx00 from Redhill at Guildford.

The units working the xx01 from Reading / xx30 from Gatwick Airport are self-contained and effectively what runs now but on the opposite half hour. The units working the other services interwork on what appear to be quite heroic turnarounds at Reading - so stopper one cycle and fast the next - meaning that only six units are needed for the basic pattern.

All well and good.

However, in the peaks the structure gets quite messy with very few opportunities to pass at Guildford, so stoppers go to Gatwick, some fasts terminate at Redhill and possibly a lower frequency in the morning peak than later in the day, although it is possible that some morning trains aren't loaded since a trains don't appear to have balancing workings at present. I guess this is the result of a resource led timetable and the need to serve more stations. One really odd set up is the 0705 from Reading which runs to Guildford in 37 minutes calling at Wokingham, Blackwater and North Camp, then sits for 20 minutes before running to Redhill calling at Dorking Deepdene and Reigate. There are perhaps fewer trains to Gatwick Airport than they might have wished for in the peaks.

If 769s are eventually going to appear in May, perhaps 3tph will be deferred to allow for training on the new trains. Recent experience elsewhere suggests that it might not always be a good idea to introduce a new timetable at the same time as new trains.

Currently it's one train an hour from Guildford in the morbing, save that there isn't one after 8am and that is replaced by runnings 7:53 stopper all the way (so effectively 2 trains between 7-8am).

I guess if they must terminate at Redhill then that will be fine providing there is a decent connectoon to Gatwick Airport and one doesn't have to wait a while because a train just headed south.

Incidentally I just noticed there is a 11:10 Guildford to Gatwick Airport that arrives in at 11:50. I thought the 760s were meant to be slower and the current timetable written for there use. That doesn't seem slow to me.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The 769 units won’t be introduced in May. Later in the summer, at the earliest.

Ive been looking forward to this better service across to Reading ever since P0 opened at Redhill but presumably it needs the 769's to be available as they wont have enough spare Turbos to cover extra diagrams so sounds like Dec 2020!!. Also the locals Reigate community has already aired its concerns over further impact on town traffic (it backs up very quickly in the rush hour now) so i expect they will make representations and give NR a reason to defer it whilst this is better understood.

 

[LUSOwner]

Ive been looking forward to this better service across to Reading ever since P0 opened at Redhill but presumably it needs the 769's to be available as they wont have enough spare Turbos to cover extra diagrams so sounds like Dec 2020!!. Also the locals Reigate community has already aired its concerns over further impact on town traffic (it backs up very quickly in the rush hour now) so i expect they will make representations and give NR a reason to defer it whilst this is better understood.

An hourly SN service also terminates there as well - however it does not affect the level crossing. Having 3tph would of course, practically, mean the SN service is useless, and can run 4-coach to Tonbridge or somewhere else instead... but it would of course cause the barriers to be down more. I've been down there quite a lot and the traffic backs up towards the M25 ridiculously quickly...

As Johnathan H shows, the timetable looks quite messy - but LOOKS feasible. I can only hope it causes as little as possible effect on Reigate's crossing.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

An hourly SN service also terminates there as well - however it does not affect the level crossing. Having 3tph would of course, practically, mean the SN service is useless, and can run 4-coach to Tonbridge or somewhere else instead... but it would of course cause the barriers to be down more. I've been down there quite a lot and the traffic backs up towards the M25 ridiculously quickly...

As Johnathan H shows, the timetable looks quite messy - but LOOKS feasible. I can only hope it causes as little as possible effect on Reigate's crossing.

Why is the Southern service from Reigate useless? The North Downs service isn’t much use for going to London.

 

[Deepgreen]

Why is the Southern service from Reigate useless? The North Downs service isn’t much use for going to London.

I don't think it's "useless", but it is subject to an awful lot of curtailments at Redhill when things go even a little wrong. The NDL GWR service of course terminates or reverses at Redhill, quite often at p0, making for a needlessly long interchange to a London train - the GWR trains use the GTR stopping mark which takes them a long way from the stairs (and beyond the canopy!), making a tedious interchange even slower, especially with the ludicrous arrangement of the information screens en route causing people to stop, turn round and check the screen facing the other way down the platform. Cue congestion, with luggage, etc., fouling the smooth passage of passengers hurrying to cross to other platforms. As an ex-career station planner, I wince every time I have to use this abomination!

 

[JonathanH]

Why is the Southern service from Reigate useless? The North Downs service isn’t much use for going to London.

I don't think it's "useless", but it is subject to an awful lot of curtailments at Redhill when things go even a little wrong.

I'm not sure I agree with either of these statements.

The North Downs servuce at Reigate is useful for connecting into Thameslink services - not everyone wants to go to Victoria and not everyone wants to change at East Croydon rather than Redhill.

Most Victoria to Reigate trains do make it beyond Redhill. In fact, sometimes I am surprised they do given delay. It helps that the evening ones are the front unit as the trains may as well come round to Reigate as reverse in the Tonbridge line loop. Moreover, the dwell is at Redhill on the return rather than Reigate so a late departure from Reigate doesn't necessarily lead to late presentation at East Croydon. It might be a bit different in the morning peak however.

Having 3tph would of course, practically, mean the SN service is useless, and can run 4-coach to Tonbridge or somewhere else instead.

Compare loadings on the Southern services at Reigate with those on most GWR services between Reigate and Redhill. There is a clear preference for the Southern ones both to and from Reigate.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Ive been looking forward to this better service across to Reading ever since P0 opened at Redhill but presumably it needs the 769's to be available as they wont have enough spare Turbos to cover extra diagrams so sounds like Dec 2020!!. Also the locals Reigate community has already aired its concerns over further impact on town traffic (it backs up very quickly in the rush hour now) so i expect they will make representations and give NR a reason to defer it whilst this is better understood.

What makes you think there aren’t enough spare Turbos to operate the service? The 769s will release sets that go to the Bristol area. Without 769s they simply stay at Reading. The new timetable as-of 15th December has rewritten all of the diagrams, and it was written with the 3tph NDL timetable in mind. I think you may find it starts sooner than you think.

 

[JonathanH]

I think you may find it starts sooner than you think.

Surely not before 18 May though. The changes in the peaks are substantial and swapping the stopping services to the opposite half hour at the east end means quite a change to people's travelling habits.

The morning peak service (as currently shown and only a few obvious omissions) is at best a pretty awkward compromise relative to what currently operates.

The rest of the day is a bit more true to the 3tph objective.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Surely not before 18 May though. The changes in the peaks are substantial and swapping the stopping services to the opposite half hour at the east end means quite a change to people's travelling habits.

The morning peak service (as currently shown and only a few obvious omissions) is at best a pretty awkward compromise relative to what currently operates.

The rest of the day is a bit more true to the 3tph objective.

Yes, 2tph until May is a given.

 

[MML]

I don't think it's "useless", but it is subject to an awful lot of curtailments at Redhill when things go even a little wrong. The NDL GWR service of course terminates or reverses at Redhill, quite often at p0, making for a needlessly long interchange to a London train - the GWR trains use the GTR stopping mark which takes them a long way from the stairs (and beyond the canopy!), making a tedious interchange even slower, especially with the ludicrous arrangement of the information screens en route causing people to stop, turn round and check the screen facing the other way down the platform. Cue congestion, with luggage, etc., fouling the smooth passage of passengers hurrying to cross to other platforms. As an ex-career station planner, I wince every time I have to use this abomination!

I notice top priority for station improvement at Redhill was the need to install a bright yellow railing along the face of the old bay platform located opposite platform 3. As if anybody ever fell off the platform without the bright yellow railing.
But I digress. The need to fit the Victoria to Reigate into the existing 2 tph service already delays Thameslink services through platform 3, the Reigate Southern service blocking the platform as it waits for the GWR service to Reading to clear through Reigate.
Reigate lacks a bay platform so the terminating Victoria service cannot leave Redhill or risks blocking the GWR service to Reading.
I do wonder whether the Victoria to Reigate should be rerouted to Tonbridge with the 3 car shuttle operating between Redhill and Reigate instead giving greater flexibility between the 3 tph GWR service.

 

[JonathanH]

I do wonder whether the Victoria to Reigate should be rerouted to Tonbridge with the 3 car shuttle operating between Redhill and Reigate instead giving greater flexibility between the 3 tph GWR service.

The number of people travelling to Reigate on the Victoria service far outweighs any demand for the Tonbridge line.

A shuttle between Redhill and Reigate would be in pretty much the same times as the through service from Victoria currently runs between Redhill and Reigate.

You are right that the Reigate Southern service blocks platform 3 at Redhill when the Reading service has to go first. However, this should not happen when the GWR service is running to time.

 

[Class 170101]

Its a shame the Reigate service is not a bi-mode train (Tri-mode???) then perhaps the Reading to Redhill and Victoria to Reigate could be run as one service, Victoria to Reading.

 

[JonathanH]

Its a shame the Reigate service is not a bi-mode train (Tri-mode???) then perhaps the Reading to Redhill and Victoria to Reigate could be run as one service, Victoria to Reading.

There could be some merit in joining the Guildford to Redhill element of the stopping service with services from Victoria to Reigate, particularly once the GWR stopping service starts to have a long layover at Guildford but that doesn't mean it is going to happen. This would free up the Reading to Guildford section to have a different southern terminus. Perhaps you need to speak to Transport for the South East https://transportforthesoutheast.org.uk/. From what I can see, Surrey's priority for the line is better connectivity between Guildford and stations beyond Reading and little else.

Probably something for a speculative ideas thread though.

 

[FenMan]

Looking at the draft timetable on Realtime Trains I'm nervous that the last Gatwick departure of the day omits the normal Blackwater Valley stops - North Camp and Blackwater. This omission also happened last year, however the stops were retained in the final timetable.

I'm hoping this draft is in error as I use this service regularly to return to Blackwater and also know that it is used by hospitality workers in Guildford to go home after their evening shifts.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the draft timetable on Realtime Trains I'm nervous that the last Gatwick departure of the day omits the normal Blackwater Valley stops - North Camp and Blackwater. This omission also happened last year, however the stops were retained in the final timetable.

I'm hoping this draft is in error as I use this service regularly to return to Blackwater and also know that it is used by hospitality workers in Guildford to go home after their evening shifts.

Probably worth following this up with GWR. Given the earlier departure of the 2200 from Gatwick relative to its historic timing, it would mean a very much earlier departure from Guildford for North Camp and Blackwater (ie 2256 instead of 0003). The service level committment doesn't appear to explicitly refer to a provision for the "Late service" to miss out North Camp and Blackwater.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...tern-service-level-commitment-3a-22032015.pdf

 

[SussexLad]

As noted in the May 2020 timetable changes thread, Great Western are one of the Train Companies who have already loaded some preliminary information on their proposed timetables into the open data feeds used by RTT etc. While it must be taken with a pinch of salt and is subject to change, the information there will give some idea of how 3tph on the North Downs line is meant to work.

The basic structure off peak appears to use 9 units on the following basic pattern

From Reading
xx01 Reading - Wokingham - Blackwater - North Camp - Guildford - Dorking Deepdene - Reigate - Redhill - Gatwick Airport
xx20 Reading - Wokingham - all stations to Ash - Guildford - stations to Redhill (alternating Chilworth / Gomshall with Dorking West / Betchworth)
xx36 Reading - Wokingham - Guildford - Dorking Deepdene - Reigate - Redhill - Gatwick Airport.

The xx36 overtakes the xx20 at Guildford

From Gatwick Airport / Redhill

xx00 Redhill - stations to Guildford - Ash - all stations to Wokingham - Reading (alternating Betchworth / Dorking West and Gomshall / Chilworth)
xx00 Gatwick Airport - Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene - Guildford - Wokingham - Reading
xx30 Gatwick Airport - Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene - Guildford - North Camp - Blackwater - Wokingham - Reading

The xx00 from Gatwick overtakes the xx00 from Redhill at Guildford.

The units working the xx01 from Reading / xx30 from Gatwick Airport are self-contained and effectively what runs now but on the opposite half hour. The units working the other services interwork on what appear to be quite heroic turnarounds at Reading - so stopper one cycle and fast the next - meaning that only six units are needed for the basic pattern.

All well and good.

However, in the peaks the structure gets quite messy with very few opportunities to pass at Guildford, so stoppers go to Gatwick, some fasts terminate at Redhill and possibly a lower frequency in the morning peak than later in the day, although it is possible that some morning trains aren't loaded since a trains don't appear to have balancing workings at present. I guess this is the result of a resource led timetable and the need to serve more stations. One really odd set up is the 0705 from Reading which runs to Guildford in 37 minutes calling at Wokingham, Blackwater and North Camp, then sits for 20 minutes before running to Redhill calling at Dorking Deepdene and Reigate. There are perhaps fewer trains to Gatwick Airport than they might have wished for in the peaks.

If 769s are eventually going to appear in May, perhaps 3tph will be deferred to allow for training on the new trains. Recent experience elsewhere suggests that it might not always be a good idea to introduce a new timetable at the same time as new trains.

Fairwarning: first comment ever but been reading for years.

Sorry I hate this timetable. Why is Blackwater not getting 3 tph when it has a higher passenger usage than Dorking Deepdeen and Dorking West combined? I know the usage was declining but that's probably driven by the fact you can hardly get on the train when its busy so commuters switch to Camberley a few miles away

Also need I mention cross country services and 3tph finally offering XC a sensible route to Gatwick and Brighton. Although I personally believe a curve to bypass Redhill has long been overdue

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry I hate this timetable. Why is Blackwater not getting 3 tph when it has a higher passenger usage than Dorking Deepdeen and Dorking West combined? I know the usage was declining but that's probably driven by the fact you can hardly get on the train when its busy so commuters switch to Camberley a few miles away

The fares from Blackwater to Guildford vs Camberley to Guildford (and journey times) are such that going from Blackwater to Guildford is a much more attractive option. London is obviously easier from Camberley.

In terms of why Blackwater and North Camp only get 2tph, the relevant points are:
* The timetable is resource led to use 9 units. By running fast from Guildford to Wokingham, the unit that does a stopper on one cycle can do a Gatwick on the other and still come within 6 hours for two trips.
* This isn't a reduction in service at Blackwater and North Camp. They just aren't benefitting from a third service.
* The path from Guildford to Gatwick and back is pretty much fixed by the Thameslink timetable so the train may as well stop at Dorking Deepdene else it would arrive early at Reigate / Shalford Junction

On the negative side, it does mean that the trains from Blackwater and North Camp aren't as well spaced as they are at the moment.

The timetable is not at all perfect in my mind and the morning peak towards Reading (even once they put missing trains in) won't be as well balanced as it was up until 2006.

Also need I mention cross country services and 3tph finally offering XC a sensible route to Gatwick and Brighton. Although I personally believe a curve to bypass Redhill has long been overdue

Too slow and a performance risk to the rest of the network.

Yes, it might be great to put Cross Country trains into the timetable but that isn't where anyone's priority lies. There wouldn't now be the room for them south of Gatwick that there was until 2007 (and in particular in summer of 2002 when there was the embryo of a very good service). Having a self-contained reliable connecting service between Reading, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick to allow interchange between long-distance services and the south coast is pretty much the only option that works with the constraints of the line. A curve at Redhill is not on the agenda either.

 

[infobleep]

The fares from Blackwater to Guildford vs Camberley to Guildford (and journey times) are such that going from Blackwater to Guildford is a much more attractive option. London is obviously easier from Camberley.

In terms of why Blackwater and North Camp only get 2tph, the relevant points are:
* The timetable is resource led to use 9 units. By running fast from Guildford to Wokingham, the unit that does a stopper on one cycle can do a Gatwick on the other and still come within 6 hours for two trips.
* This isn't a reduction in service at Blackwater and North Camp. They just aren't benefitting from a third service.
* The path from Guildford to Gatwick and back is pretty much fixed by the Thameslink timetable so the train may as well stop at Dorking Deepdene else it would arrive early at Reigate / Shalford Junction

On the negative side, it does mean that the trains from Blackwater and North Camp aren't as well spaced as they are at the moment.

The timetable is not at all perfect in my mind and the morning peak towards Reading (even once they put missing trains in) won't be as well balanced as it was up until 2006.



Too slow and a performance risk to the rest of the network.

Yes, it might be great to put Cross Country trains into the timetable but that isn't where anyone's priority lies. There wouldn't now be the room for them south of Gatwick that there was until 2007 (and in particular in summer of 2002 when there was the embryo of a very good service). Having a self-contained reliable connecting service between Reading, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick to allow interchange between long-distance services and the south coast is pretty much the only option that works with the constraints of the line. A curve at Redhill is not on the agenda either.

Reliable being the key word her, e with as few short terminations or starts at Redhill instead of Gatwick Airport as possible

 

[SussexLad]

The fares from Blackwater to Guildford vs Camberley to Guildford (and journey times) are such that going from Blackwater to Guildford is a much more attractive option. London is obviously easier from Camberley.

In terms of why Blackwater and North Camp only get 2tph, the relevant points are:
* The timetable is resource led to use 9 units. By running fast from Guildford to Wokingham, the unit that does a stopper on one cycle can do a Gatwick on the other and still come within 6 hours for two trips.
* This isn't a reduction in service at Blackwater and North Camp. They just aren't benefitting from a third service.
* The path from Guildford to Gatwick and back is pretty much fixed by the Thameslink timetable so the train may as well stop at Dorking Deepdene else it would arrive early at Reigate / Shalford Junction

On the negative side, it does mean that the trains from Blackwater and North Camp aren't as well spaced as they are at the moment.

The timetable is not at all perfect in my mind and the morning peak towards Reading (even once they put missing trains in) won't be as well balanced as it was up until 2006.



Too slow and a performance risk to the rest of the network.

Yes, it might be great to put Cross Country trains into the timetable but that isn't where anyone's priority lies. There wouldn't now be the room for them south of Gatwick that there was until 2007 (and in particular in summer of 2002 when there was the embryo of a very good service). Having a self-contained reliable connecting service between Reading, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick to allow interchange between long-distance services and the south coast is pretty much the only option that works with the constraints of the line. A curve at Redhill is not on the agenda either.

I get that it is not a service reduction for Blackwater but a service increase is desperately needed at Blackwater. In terms of too London, via Readibg is just as fast and much nicer due to intercity trains. Many people prefer via reading but give up on that route due to massively overcrowded trains.

I get the performance risk but with a longer dwell time at Reading that would reduce the risk.

An XC service to Gatwick is still great for the rest of the country, doesnt have to go all the way to Brighton.

Reliable being the key word her, e with as few short terminations or starts at Redhill instead of Gatwick Airport as possible

If reliability was so high on GWRs agenda they should have ordered more trains, recognising the 769s are late arriving but that doesn't excuse their failure to plan for adequate stock

There are many services they could operate better or more reliably with more stock

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Tbh, if any station between Guildford and Wokingham deserves extra trains, it’s Farnborough North.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I get that it is not a service reduction for Blackwater but a service increase is desperately needed at Blackwater. In terms of too London, via Readibg is just as fast and much nicer due to intercity trains. Many people prefer via reading but give up on that route due to massively overcrowded trains.

I get the performance risk but with a longer dwell time at Reading that would reduce the risk.

An XC service to Gatwick is still great for the rest of the country, doesnt have to go all the way to Brighton.



If reliability was so high on GWRs agenda they should have ordered more trains, recognising the 769s are late arriving but that doesn't excuse their failure to plan for adequate stock

There are many services they could operate better or more reliably with more stock

The Wokingham to Aldershot South Junction section is desperately in need of resignalling - currently the timetable planning rules require an 11-minute interval behind a train that makes any kind of stop, compared to 6 mins behind a non-stop. This might not seem much, but when you consider the relative spacing between fast and semi-fast Gatwick trains, it would have meant the stopper could not be pathed and thereby breaks the 3tph concept.

 

[pne508]

Tbh, if any station between Guildford and Wokingham deserves extra trains, it’s Farnborough North.

I use Farnborough and I am disappointed that it's not going to benefit from this. Unless I'm reading the passenger stats wrong then it's busier than North Camp and Blackwater, so you'd have thought it would feature on the semi fast service.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I use Farnborough and I am disappointed that it's not going to benefit from this. Unless I'm reading the passenger stats wrong then it's busier than North Camp and Blackwater, so you'd have thought it would feature on the semi fast service.

Statistics only show certain elements - whilst Farnborough North has higher overall passenger numbers then North Camp and Blackwater that is due to educational traffic which means it is very very busy at some times of day but much less busy than the others outside this time. The statistic only shows overall daily usage.

 

[big all]

I use Farnborough and I am disappointed that it's not going to benefit from this. Unless I'm reading the passenger stats wrong then it's busier than North Camp and Blackwater, so you'd have thought it would feature on the semi fast service.

perhaps they are educational based peaks not warranting additional all day trains ??

 

[pne508]

Fair enough, definitely accept that with Blackwater, less so with North Camp which has half Farnborough's numbers. It does lead to another point though. The narrow crossing at Farnborough struggles to handle the student numbers arriving in the morning, it takes several minutes for them to clear the line. Of course, none of them check for trains.

 

[SussexLad]

The Wokingham to Aldershot South Junction section is desperately in need of resignalling - currently the timetable planning rules require an 11-minute interval behind a train that makes any kind of stop, compared to 6 mins behind a non-stop. This might not seem much, but when you consider the relative spacing between fast and semi-fast Gatwick trains, it would have meant the stopper could not be pathed and thereby breaks the 3tph concept.

I was aware there is an 11 minute headway but wasn't sure where. How likely is it that network rail actually resignal it all thou?

I remember reading a proposal from Surrey council to get 3tph and reduce headway on this line but it concluded that it costs loads to do it so I thought it had been shelved.

Fair enough, definitely accept that with Blackwater, less so with North Camp which has half Farnborough's numbers. It does lead to another point though. The narrow crossing at Farnborough struggles to handle the student numbers arriving in the morning, it takes several minutes for them to clear the line. Of course, none of them check for trains.

North camp is not useful for much unless you live there. That said it's a really cute little station!

 

[FenMan]

North camp is not useful for much unless you live there. That said it's a really cute little station!

North Camp and Blackwater are railheads in the sense that many passengers do not live in the immediate vicinity. Both have excellent road links and good parking provision. Blackwater also has decent bus links while North Camp is a popular interchange for passengers going to Aldershot, Farnham and Alton via Ash Vale (from regular experience I think the number of interchanges reported in the station usage stats is a significant underestimate).

Farnborough North however will continue to be a backwater, excepting the student traffic, as road access is poor and parking provision non-existent.