4 day closure of ECML south of Peterborough

[Somewhere]

I thought the plan was to stagger holiday times so parents (and teachers) wouldn't always get ripped off on holidays etc.

Indeed, I even thought there was a plan to shorten the summer holiday to four weeks and extend other terms or half-terms?

Staggering won't work, as teachers will have school holidays one week, their kids the following week.
And the kid at secondary school will have a different holiday to the kid at primary school.

 

[185143]

The problem is that the cost of running those services is so large that it's always going to be cheaper to turn that money away. Or are you suggesting subsidising GC to run that? If so I'd say it's probably not the worst use of money you could think of.

True, I suppose.

Not running them will probably see TPE services being overwhelmed over the weekends. I've seen plenty of full and standing adelantes on Saturday mid mornings, albeit admittedly not quite that full at this time of year. And from having been on one of those evening GC services up to the North East, the contribution to the hospitality industry in York by Teessiders is not Insignificant by any means.

 

[800001]

Why aren't Grand Central running, surely they could run Sunderland to York and Bradford to Doncaster

Platform capacity at York or Doncaster with services terminating

 

[TreacleMiller]

Lack of effort?

They (in my experience) carry plenty of passengers from the North East to York and back of a weekend, so to imply passenger numbers won't warrant it isn't true.

But wether they want those passengers is another matter!

Definitely lack of demand. Our trains were empty when terminating at Grantham, including the ones coming down to York.

 

[Starmill]

Definitely lack of demand. Our trains were empty when terminating at Grantham, including the ones coming down to York.

There's very little demand for Doncaster - Bradford and intermediate stations that's not already met by LNER's short services and connections with Northern and TransPennine Express, albeit that on the Sunday the connection times can be very poor.

There's a bit more for York - Sunderland and intermediates because York is so much more of an attractor.

True, I suppose.

Not running them will probably see TPE services being overwhelmed over the weekends. I've seen plenty of full and standing adelantes on Saturday mid mornings, albeit admittedly not quite that full at this time of year. And from having been on one of those evening GC services up to the North East, the contribution to the hospitality industry in York by Teessiders is not Insignificant by any means.

I think it's a shame GC can't be offered a small sum in respect of their costs to run two round trips between Sunderland and York. However even for just two services it would be quite awkward to get them in and out at York or at Doncaster. Also that's generally not the done thing. They would be asked to accept all TPE and Northern only tickets in return.

 

[185143]

There's very little demand for Doncaster - Bradford and intermediate stations that's not already met by LNER's short services and connections with Northern and TransPennine Express, albeit that on the Sunday the connection times can be very poor.

There's a bit more for York - Sunderland and intermediates because York is so much more of an attractor.


I think it's a shame GC can't be offered a small sum in respect of their costs to run two round trips between Sunderland and York. However even for just two services it would be quite awkward to get them in and out at York or at Doncaster. Also that's generally not the done thing. They would be asked to accept all TPE and Northern only tickets in return.

Even with a reduced LNER service?

Or even Lumo style, run as far south as they can and bus to KGX seeing as it'd only be a handful of trains?

 

[MotCO]

Maybe they could replace all the OHLE from London to Grantham while the lines are closed to overcome the recent problems .

 

[43055]

What are they doing that needs a four day closure? ETCS is supposed be simpler than conventional signalling but at this rate the ECML is in for a lot of disruption for what real benefit.

Last weekend the commissioning of the resignalling 'lite' for the Welwyn to Hitchin project (Network Rail article below).

Digital future of signalling on the East Coast Main Line takes major step forward after section commissioning

The East Coast Digital Programme has taken a big step forward with the renewal of infrastructure successfully commissioned that now enables the Welwyn to Hitchin (W2H) ETCS overlay to be tested and proven, with engineers having worked around the clock between 17-20 February. W2H is Britain’s...

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Digital future of signalling on the East Coast Main Line takes major step forward after section commissioning​

Region & Route: Eastern | Eastern: East Coast
The East Coast Digital Programme has taken a big step forward with the renewal of infrastructure successfully commissioned that now enables the Welwyn to Hitchin (W2H) ETCS overlay to be tested and proven, with engineers having worked around the clock between 17-20 February. W2H is Britain’s first instance of infrastructure commissioning towards a ‘no signals’ intercity mainline.

The overlay is a critical part of ECDP’s delivery plan. To achieve the end goal of a ‘no signals’ railway on the southern part of the East Coast Main Line, it is necessary to create a section of the route that can be operated with both conventional and digital signalling. Drivers from all ECML operators will progressively be trained to drive in ETCS through the W2H overlay.

Once all fleets are upgraded and all drivers trained, the progressive roll out of digital signalling throughout ECML (South) can rapidly follow. The W2H overlay will be a key enabler not just for ECDP but for the wider roll out of ETCS across the GB network.
W2H commissioning has involved a ‘lite’ resignalling in preparation for system proving of the ETCS system. A new proving desk and Radio Block Centre will be put in place in York ROC, to enable the first overnight proving trains to operate from spring 2024. It is expected that migration to ETCS operations on passenger and freight services through the overlay section will begin in 2025.

The W2H resignalling lite has included existing assets moving to Westrace Trackside System equipment, introducing three new Trackguard Westlock interlockings and associated infrastructure, trackside fringe alterations at Hatfield, Biggleswade, Hertford and Letchworth, and renewing the existing train detection with axle counters. Power works took place in the form of introduction of three new principal supply point feeders and replacing seven existing 650v feeders.

Ed Akers, Principal Programme Sponsor for the East Coast Digital Programme, said: “This is a major milestone for the project and I’m incredibly proud of everyone involved in reaching this point. The East Coast Digital Programme will deliver major upgrades for passengers as they travel by train in the future.

“To reach this point and to implement digital signalling on the East Coast Main Line has meant a huge amount of collaboration between Network Rail, train operators, and other rail industry stakeholders through our unique industry partnership.

“While commissioning Welwyn to Hitchin is a key enabler for the East Coast Digital Programme, it is also a significant step towards the rollout of digital signalling across the network.”

Ben Lane, Project Director for Siemens Mobility & Infrastructure Sector Lead ECDP, said: "This delivery is a great testament of the 500+ tenacious people we had on various sites that ensured the safe completion of this programme of works. We can now start a period of system proving, getting us closer to a 'no signals' digital railway that will reduce future renewals and maintenances costs, improve reliability for passenger and freight services on the route and provide better return on investment of taxpayers’ money."

A spokesperson on behalf of passenger train operators said: “Our teams have been working hard over the last four days to keep passengers on the move and to get them to their destination as quickly as possible.

“We know that changes to services are never ideal and we want to thank our passengers for their patience while Network Rail carried out this vital work.”

Maggie Simpson OBE, Director General, Rail Freight Group, said: "It is great to see real progress being made in ETCS development on the East Coast Main Line, with collaboration between freight operating companies, Network Rail and other partners ensuring that the solutions work for rail freight customers. This is a key step towards full deployment and we look forward to seeing further progress in coming months."

The first stage of ECDP is the Northern City Line (NCL) pathfinder project. This also involves an overlay between Finsbury Park and Moorgate on which Great Northern drivers are progressively being trained to drive in ETCS.

After a series of proving runs and regulatory approvals, the first digitally signalled passenger train operated in November 2023. Currently around a quarter of NCL trains are being operated in ETCS and it is expected that the NCL will be a ‘no signals’ railway from early 2025.

The NCL pathfinder is enabling the ECDP to ‘learn by doing’ and the experience being gained by the cross-industry collaboration will be invaluable to the effective delivery of digital signalling on the mainline, starting with W2H.

Notes to Editors​

Digital signalling
Digital signalling, using ETCS is a proven technology already in use in many countries in Europe and elsewhere. The ECDP will see the first introduction of ETCS to an intercity mainline in Great Britain, and will provide the foundation for the future expansion of digital signalling across the network. ETCS is currently in use in the central London section of Thameslink and on the Cambrian Line in Wales, and now on the Northern City Line (Finsbury Park to Moorgate), in the first stage of ECDP.
More reliability: With signalling information being provided directly to the driver, via a screen in their cab, there will no longer be a need to maintain a large amount of lineside equipment involved with traditional ‘traffic light’ signals. As a result, the amount of signalling-related engineering work will reduce in the future by around almost half. Additionally, trains are sometimes affected by signal failures; moving to a modern, digitally based system makes this less likely, potentially reducing thousands of hours of delays, and making train services more reliable.
More punctual services: Digital signalling gives train drivers continual information about the safe maximum speed for their train. It provides drivers with additional information about the route ahead, that today’s fixed ‘traffic light’ signals do not. This enables more ‘efficient’ operations, helping trains stay on time. The new technology allows continuous communication between the trackside and onboard equipment. Signallers can continuously communicate with every train on the network and respond in real time using digital tools to help smooth the flow of trains and recover services more quickly after disruption.
Greener journeys: Digital signalling contributes to a greener railway. The East Coast Main Line is already electrified, and these upgrades will deliver a further 55,000 tonne reduction in carbon emissions over 60 years – the equivalent to over 65,000 one-way flights from London to New York, or over 2 million passenger train journeys from London to Edinburgh. This is because there is much less physical equipment to produce and maintain compared with what’s needed for ‘traffic light’ signals. The estimated whole life carbon saving over a 60-year period (the expected life span of a ‘traditional’ signalling system) is around 39%. The technology also allows gentler braking, meaning journeys are smoother and use less energy. Finally, a more reliable and punctual railway will encourage more people to choose rail over road and air, ultimately reducing transport emissions for the long-term.
For further information about the ECDP please visit www.eastcoastdigitalprogramme.co.uk

Contact information​

Passengers / community members
Network Rail national helpline
03457 11 41 41
Latest travel advice
Please visit National Rail Enquiries
Journalists
Joshua Chapman
Media Relations Manager
Network Rail
[email protected]

 

[vuzzeho]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but it's just kinda wild to me that the connection to London, the capital, from an entire major mainline could be closed for 4 entire days. Was there no chance for any of these operators to divert into different termini or stations in London?

 

[Bald Rick]

Was there no chance for any of these operators to divert into different termini or stations in London?

Aside from a couple of trains, no.

 

[Watershed]

Aside from a couple of trains, no.

Without major alterations to existing services, undoubtedly. But the question has to be asked whether it wouldn't have been a better use of the scarce capacity at St Pancras and Liverpool Street to run some diverted LNER services in lieu of EMR and Greater Anglia services.

The industry needs to adopt a more holistic attitude in order to do what's in the interest of passengers as a whole. Whilst no doubt EMR passengers would have been inconvenienced if Sheffield and Nottingham had gone down to 1tph for example, they were already inconvenienced by the horrendous overcrowding seen at St Pancras and on the MML.

Sadly, the prospect of any such sort of joined up thinking seems incredibly remote; this is exacerbated by an industry attitude that deems it acceptable to advise people not to travel - for a closure that the railway has inflicted upon itself and has had over a year to plan for.

This very much ties in with LNER's continuing attempts to become an airline on rails, by moving to only offering Advance or "Flex" tickets that are released at their sole discretion (i.e. not at all during this blockade), or ridiculously expensive Anytime tickets.

That might be acceptable for an actual airline, but for an industry in receipt of billions of public subsidy for providing what is ostensibly a vital public service (that can somehow still be ceased if it's inconvenient), it's difficult to see how that could be regarded as remotely acceptable.

 

[The Planner]

Without major alterations to existing services, undoubtedly. But the question has to be asked whether it wouldn't have been a better use of the scarce capacity at St Pancras and Liverpool Street to run some diverted LNER services in lieu of EMR and Greater Anglia services.

The industry needs to adopt a more holistic attitude in order to do what's in the interest of passengers as a whole. Whilst no doubt EMR passengers would have been inconvenienced if Sheffield and Nottingham had gone down to 1tph for example, they were already inconvenienced by the horrendous overcrowding seen at St Pancras and on the MML.

Sadly, the prospect of any such sort of joined up thinking seems incredibly remote; this is exacerbated by an industry attitude that deems it acceptable to advise people not to travel - for a closure that the railway has inflicted upon itself and has had over a year to plan for.

This very much ties in with LNER's continuing attempts to become an airline on rails, by moving to only offering Advance or "Flex" tickets that are released at their sole discretion (i.e. not at all during this blockade), or ridiculously expensive Anytime tickets.

That might be acceptable for an actual airline, but for an industry in receipt of billions of public subsidy for providing what is ostensibly a vital public service (that can somehow still be ceased if it's inconvenient), it's difficult to see how that could be regarded as remotely acceptable.

It is happening though, GWR will run to Euston when Old Oak Common works are being undertaken. Avanti will be removing services to allow it. Its likely needed the DfT to say "sort it", but its 99% certain.

 

[Bald Rick]

Without major alterations to existing services, undoubtedly. But the question has to be asked whether it wouldn't have been a better use of the scarce capacity at St Pancras and Liverpool Street to run some diverted LNER services in lieu of EMR and Greater Anglia services.

Well that boils down to whether it is better to:

1) spend a lot of taxpayers money training drivers and (potentially) gauge clearing routes, in order to then reduce services on these alternstive routes (at inconvenience to those passengers) to then divert trains and passengers to enable some passengers to have direct services,

or

2) not do that, and instead divert the passengers on to the unaffected route, or divert to a different day (given that post covid a higher proportion of passengers are leisure, more likely to be flexible with their timings), thereby limiting the inconvenience to those directly affected by the closure.

 

[MotCO]

It is happening though, GWR will run to Euston when Old Oak Common works are being undertaken. Avanti will be removing services to allow it. Its likely needed the DfT to say "sort it", but its 99% certain.

Did they see it and say it as well?

 

[Failed Unit]

That is why it may be better to send LNER passengers to Cambridge (where they can get on a nice 10 car train to Liverpool Street). Of course that gives the challenge of space at Cambridge, Perhaps when MML has its new fleet things will be better as well.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well that boils down to whether it is better to:

1) spend a lot of taxpayers money training drivers and (potentially) gauge clearing routes, in order to then reduce services on these alternstive routes (at inconvenience to those passengers) to then divert trains and passengers to enable some passengers to have direct services,

or

2) not do that, and instead divert the passengers on to the unaffected route, or divert to a different day (given that post covid a higher proportion of passengers are leisure, more likely to be flexible with their timings), thereby limiting the inconvenience to those directly affected by the closure.

Or

3) get back to the sensible timescales that these jobs used to take in the past and avoid 1) & 2)

 

[Bald Rick]

3) get back to the sensible timescales that these jobs used to take in the past and avoid 1) & 2)

Theres never been a job like this one before…

 

[Failed Unit]

Or

3) get back to the sensible timescales that these jobs used to take in the past and avoid 1) & 2)

To be fair living on the route, I don’t mind the extended and the fact the trains were not running for an extended period. However I know T-12 is dead but it is annoying that Great Northern didn’t start letting passengers know until January, This must have got planned for months (many months) so why they didn’t let us know earlier is beyond me.

 

[jon0844]

The NR branded posters about the project were around before January, but didn't mention the dates implicitly - you needed to go to the website to learn more what the whole project is about and see the road map for times and dates.

The next poster did have the dates but even though it was four consecutive days (so had to include weekdays) I don't think it was very clear to people in a rush.

Nearer the time, business cards were handed out in the peak with warnings and a barcode for more info.

 

[LowLevel]

Well that boils down to whether it is better to:

1) spend a lot of taxpayers money training drivers and (potentially) gauge clearing routes, in order to then reduce services on these alternstive routes (at inconvenience to those passengers) to then divert trains and passengers to enable some passengers to have direct services,

or

2) not do that, and instead divert the passengers on to the unaffected route, or divert to a different day (given that post covid a higher proportion of passengers are leisure, more likely to be flexible with their timings), thereby limiting the inconvenience to those directly affected by the closure.

Given the chaos it's caused, my "off the wall" solution would have been to run an hourly 9 car 800 from Doncaster to Kettering direct avoiding Sheffield and via the Erewash for as competitive a journey time as possible to connect with trains at both ends - 802s are route cleared so 800s should only be a paper work exercise and there's been plenty of time to sort out the crewing in whatever form that would take.

That would have been a huge uplift in capacity vs what has often been a 5 car 222 per hour.

EMR have sustained considerable reputational damage as a consequence of these works.

 

[Bayum]

Staggering won't work, as teachers will have school holidays one week, their kids the following week.
And the kid at secondary school will have a different holiday to the kid at primary school.

Already exists and happens. LeedsLEA has Easter at the same time each year yet North Yorkshire still have their Easter holidays with the Easter weekend and bank holiday in the middle of the two weeks.

 

[Failed Unit]

The NR branded posters about the project were around before January, but didn't mention the dates implicitly - you needed to go to the website to learn more what the whole project is about and see the road map for times and dates.

The next poster did have the dates but even though it was four consecutive days (so had to include weekdays) I don't think it was very clear to people in a rush.

Nearer the time, business cards were handed out in the peak with warnings and a barcode for more info.

That was my problem, as the previous blockages had caught me by surprise. I don’t check the website frequently. But if you go on it today, there are no further dates listed. However, I would be very surprised if they don’t have any further works planned because of this project. To me, they should put everything they know about on the website now. I would actually put it in my phone calendar.

The last set of works for this was before Christmas (can’t remember the specific dates, so having these dates included at that possession would be a great help as it is fresh in the mind)

I do try to make a point at stopping at the engineering works posters as I travel through stations, knowing in January wasn’t the worse in the world for us locals who could drive to the MML.

This has being a moan for me for A long time, Major engineering work with total line closures should be on the national rail website as soon as it is known about (which must be months) - in its own section. It is possible I don’t know where to look of course but if it isn’t why keep it secret?

Given the chaos it's caused, my "off the wall" solution would have been to run an hourly 9 car 800 from Doncaster to Kettering direct avoiding Sheffield and via the Erewash for as competitive a journey time as possible to connect with trains at both ends - 802s are route cleared so 800s should only be a paper work exercise and there's been plenty of time to sort out the crewing in whatever form that would take.

That would have been a huge uplift in capacity vs what has often been a 5 car 222 per hour.

EMR have sustained considerable reputational damage as a consequence of these works.

I do feel for EMR here, just for interest were any of their trains strengthen from 5-10 or do they not have any spare stock to do this. Appreciate as well that at times they split trains so may not have platform capacity or crews to do this. But there own loyal customers have suffered, the ECML refuges probably wouldn’t use them again, but it is possible that passengers from Sheffield will say ”never again, and ironically travel to Doncaster to use a quieter LNER instead)

I know the other way I have seen them suffer when the MML is closed and everyone at Grantham tries to get onto a 2 car DMU to get to Nottingham,

 

[The Planner]

To be fair living on the route, I don’t mind the extended and the fact the trains were not running for an extended period. However I know T-12 is dead but it is annoying that Great Northern didn’t start letting passengers know until January, This must have got planned for months (many months) so why they didn’t let us know earlier is beyond me.

T12 will be back later this year.

 

[Nottingham59]

EMR have sustained considerable reputational damage as a consequence of these works.

I think that some of that is EMR's own fault:

1. I travel to London occasionally on the MML, but I'd not seen any mention of these works. I had a meeting planned in London on the Tuesday, planned two months ago. If I had known in time, we could easily have chosen another day.

2. A week beforehand, EMR were still offering Advance tickets for travel LON-NOT on Tuesday 20 Feb. Why? That just made their problems worse.

3. The journey planner a week before was not flagging up any issues with the EMR services. Though it should have been obvious that there would be over-crowding at St Pancras and on-board. Any warning at all would have prompted me to investigate and I would have rescheduled.

4. And on the day itself, their website was showing "Good Service" on both the Nottingham and Sheffield routes. Which might have been true for services running, but not from the customer viewpoint. (Though they did have a notice that services were overcrowded.)

In the end I decided not to travel. Not a great customer experience.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Only aware of Martin Lewis's experience of EMR on Monday (in the internet age, the unhappy customer tells 1000s of his/her mates about how bad things were, the happy customer tells only a few others....?), but what actually happened on Mon/Tue on EMR. How many trains were overcrowded? Were they all at full strength (his account implies not....)?

 

[Nottingham59]

Only aware of Martin Lewis's experience of EMR on Monday (in the internet age, the unhappy customer tells 1000s of his/her mates about how bad things were, the happy customer tells only a few others....?), but what actually happened on Mon/Tue on EMR. How many trains were overcrowded? Were they all at full strength (his account implies not....)?

This thread has some details. But I don't know how it turned out in the end.

How busy is the MML today (Tuesday 20/2/24)?

With the ECML closed between London and Peterborough, just how busy is the MML likely to be today, please? I was planning to travel to London returning around 2000h. Will MML trains to Nottingham be standing?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Failed Unit]

I think that some of that is EMR's own fault:

1. I travel to London occasionally on the MML, but I'd not seen any mention of these works. I had a meeting planned in London on the Tuesday, planned two months ago. If I had known in time, we could easily have chosen another day.

2. A week beforehand, EMR were still offering Advance tickets for travel LON-NOT on Tuesday 20 Feb. Why? That just made their problems worse.

3. The journey planner a week before was not flagging up any issues with the EMR services. Though it should have been obvious that there would be over-crowding at St Pancras and on-board. Any warning at all would have prompted me to investigate and I would have rescheduled.

4. And on the day itself, their website was showing "Good Service" on both the Nottingham and Sheffield routes. Which might have been true for services running, but not from the customer viewpoint. (Though they did have a notice that services were overcrowded.)

In the end I decided not to travel. Not a great customer experience.

I guess commercailly EMR were in a no-win situation. The could have taken all APs off sale and made the trains compulsory reservation. This would have then filled them up with LNER passengers on the inter-available tickets where they get virtually no revenue. Keeping the APs on sale would at least get them full revenue with people using split tickets. I suspect EMR get more money off a customer doing Leeds - London and splitting on route then they do with a Super-off peak where the majority of the revenue will go to LNER.

Still a very bad situation, where a passenger such as yourself has had a bad experience any my not chose rail next time for engineering work that is away from your route. There were warning on thier website in Monday, but I can see passengers from Leicester (and other places) saying it is unacceptable that they can't travel because of work on the ECML.

 

[Nottingham59]

I guess commercailly EMR were in a no-win situation. The could have taken all APs off sale and made the trains compulsory reservation. This would have then filled them up with LNER passengers on the inter-available tickets where they get virtually no revenue. Keeping the APs on sale would at least get them full revenue with people using split tickets. I suspect EMR get more money off a customer doing Leeds - London and splitting on route then they do with a Super-off peak where the majority of the revenue will go to LNER.

Still a very bad situation, where a passenger such as yourself has had a bad experience any my not chose rail next time for engineering work that is away from your route. There were warning on thier website in Monday, but I can see passengers from Leicester (and other places) saying it is unacceptable that they can't travel because of work on the ECML.

Thinking about, all it needed were flags on the route planners for MML services that day.

"This train is expected to be extremely busy, due to the closure of another line. If you try to travel on this train, seat reservations are likely not to be honoured, many passengers will have to stand, and you might not be able to board at all."

 

[norbitonflyer]

(given that post covid a higher proportion of passengers are leisure, more likely to be flexible with their timings), thereby limiting the inconvenience to those directly affected by the closure.

Not this nonsense again. Business meetings can be rescheduled.
But concerts, sporting events, gala days at preserved railways etc can't be: at least not by the audience/ spectators.
Many people have to take the annual leave the company roster gives them.
Family events like weddings are often planned months, if not years, in advance. (Significant birthdays are fixed decades in advance!).
And much so-called "leisure" travel is urgent personal business - emergency childcare, visiting a dying relative, attending a funeral, hospital appointment, job interview, or court (as litigant, witness, whatever). None of that can be rescheduled - and it is insulting to call such journeys "leisure"

 

[357]

I suspect EMR get more money off a customer doing Leeds - London and splitting on route then they do with a Super-off peak where the majority of the revenue will go to LNER.

Does the revenue sharing not take engineering works into account?