60 minutes, sometimes 45, help me understand.

[rob788]

With an extreme exception, you always have to live within 45 or 60 minutes before applying for trainee driver jobs.

I don't get it, it reduces the pool okay? But it also by that argument allows people that allow for lower quality candidates to do better since the pool is smaller and thus potentially leading to a worse set of drivers surely?

Some people live in rural places, so to apply they have to move away from home before getting a job to a new place.

I have applied for at least two TOCs that do training at places like York but the job itself is as much as 5 hours away or sometimes even more by car to where you work, Why can't you move after getting the job?

I know people who are the children of drivers who apply for and get jobs with depots they live hours away from on the promise they move closer before starting the training. I know someone who got a job and the TOC moved them to a different depot after they got the job even further away pushing them out of the time barrier.

I have never known any job like this, want to be a pilot move afterwards, do air traffic move afterwards, want to be a lawyer, banker, judge, work in a shop, mechanic, engineer etc, it is honestly one of the only UK based jobs for a UK applicant that I know where I need to live here at the job itself before applying but also live within distance of depots so that I can even apply on the off chance they recruit there.

Why is this even a thing? Do they not want only the best rather than the best of an area? I am honestly surprised, and I hate myself for even suggesting this, that no one has ever claimed geographical discrimination or something.

This isn't a rant, I just want to understand why living near GTR means I cannot work for South West or ScotRail or LNER in most cases etc unless I uproot my live just in case or live in a camper moving depot to depot as jobs open.

 

[Ses16]

I understand it can be frustrating for applicants in your situation but I highly doubt candidates (of lower quality) get it any easier if they make it to the assessment stage. I mean that’s what the assessments are for. There’s no special treatment for local applicants.

 

[SouthernStar]

I highly doubt it reduces the quality of candidates when there’s hundreds of applicants per vacancy!
It’s obvious to me why TOCs put the travelling to work time as a pre-requisite, it’s advised by the RSSB simply to ensure drivers are rested, and to reduce the fatigue risk for a job that requires you to be a 100% focused every minute of your shift.

The reality is that many prospective candidates say they’ll relocate closer to their depot, but in reality they don’t, instead continuing to commute 2+ hours to their workplace. Clearly TOCs have seen through this. However if the candidate is honest and willing to give that cast iron commitment to relocate, closer to the job if successful, then I agree. It shouldn’t prevent people for applying for a job hundreds of miles away.

 

[Horizon22]

Why is this even a thing? Do they not want only the best rather than the best of an area? I am honestly surprised, and I hate myself for even suggesting this, that no one has ever claimed geographical discrimination or something.

Fatigue management. The intention is that if you’re working what could be an intensive 9-10 hr shift to not then have a 2+hr commute daily which could impact your ability to do the role and you may not have suitable rest.

This is universal across the industry for train drivers and I’d be surprised if there wasn’t some similar prescription for jobs like pilots.

“Geographical discrimination” is a nonsense statement because it’s not a protected characteristic and it’s hardly unique to the railway; if you wanted a financial job, you’d be much better positioned in London for example.

 

[Samzino]

The Quality as per say would minimally be to met the RSSB's current Psychometric standard in addition to whatever additional test said TOC may use. Whole point of those are to weed out candidates based on criteria relevant to a Driver.

Of course passing those doesn't always mean you'll pass the actual hard work of rules and regs, traction etc, but most of that is usually down to an Attitude or in rare case a realisation of sorts specific to the individual.

 

[Snow1964]

I guess if the question is why are you not allowed to apply because of where currently live, then there is a case for that, especially if single, no children and living with parents etc. and keen to move.

Probably ought to be that you show you have a rental agreement or property in your name within week of being offered a role or offer is withdrawn. Rather than at initial application stage.

Presumably those that have lied in the past and not moved to within distance after getting a job, have ruined it for future applicants. Really needs to be better sanctions against bad employees rather than tarring all applicants with same bad brush. Unions have probably gone along with this by looking after lying members rather than prioritising future employees

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Definitely seems like a rant to me. Best of an area is sufficient and there’ll usually be more than enough to meet the criteria.

 

[SouthernStar]

“geographical discrimination” tell that to a migrant worker! Your best bet would be to relocate to London, surely that would be the most logical option in terms of train driving opportunities.

 

[The exile]

Given the fact that the process is designed to get enough people who are capable of driving trains, not to satisfy an individual’s desire to drive trains- if the first is being achieved then things are unlikely to change. However - I would agree that being required to move to an area just to be considered for a job you’re probably not going to get does put some people at a disadvantage - just not one that comes under discrimination laws.

 

[tiptoptaff]

TOCs will take Qualified drivers who want to relocate (well, some...) because its less of a risk.

TOCs assume, rightly or wrongly, but guided by experience, that a trainee who moves 5hrs from home for a trainee job will move back home as soon as they are able. Hence they don't always allow relocation as a trainee

 

[WF4HA5HE]

TOCs will take Qualified drivers who want to relocate (well, some...) because its less of a risk.

TOCs assume, rightly or wrongly, but guided by experience, that a trainee who moves 5hrs from home for a trainee job will move back home as soon as they are able. Hence they don't always allow relocation as a trainee

Is the fact a candidate would need to relocate for a position a deciding factor in the shortlisting process?

 

[Ducatist4]

Too many people in the past have promised to move if they get the job and then haven't bothered to do so. Fatigue management is a big thing on the railway these days (in all roles).

Is the fact a candidate would need to relocate for a position a deciding factor in the shortlisting process?

If you live outside the specified time/distance requirements you'd be unlikely to pass the initial sift.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Is the fact a candidate would need to relocate for a position a deciding factor in the shortlisting process?

It can be - even if not specifically state, if the TOC has a no relocation policy, then they'll just filter out any postcodes that are over the 45/60min distance

 

[westcoaster]

We had drivers at our depot (used to be a high trainee depot) lived hours away.
They would qualify do a few years and go back to the local TOC when jobs appeared.

We even had a couple of newly qualified drivers leave for closer TOC's after a few months of qualification, the other TOC maybe happy to take them on as there is literally no cost to them.

You can see why they no longer want to accept applicants from a greater distance.

 

[43066]

Unions have probably gone along with this by looking after lying members rather than prioritising future employees

That sounds like something you’ve just made up.

Too many people in the past have promised to move if they get the job and then haven't bothered to do so. Fatigue management is a big thing on the railway these days (in all roles).

This is true. Although it can also go the other way - there’s nothing to stop people moving a ridiculous distance away once they’ve got the job. In reality there’s little that can be done to prevent it.

 

[66701GBRF]

Unions have probably gone along with this by looking after lying members rather than prioritising future employees

Their job is to support paying members where they can, not prioritise people who are not even employed yet.

 

[rob788]

This is universal across the industry for train drivers and I’d be surprised if there wasn’t some similar prescription for jobs like pilots.

“Geographical discrimination” is a nonsense statement because it’s not a protected characteristic and it’s hardly unique to the railway; if you wanted a financial job, you’d be much better positioned in London for example.

Universal in the UK yes. For the record though with pilots... no. You apply and go to a school then after you finish training you are given a port you fly from. Though it is a job you technically buy into for the most part due to its cost of training being on you until you get a few years in and they pay the loan, you pay the interest.

I can't think of a single job that has an example of specifically asking you to be in location before applying though. Yes for finance you are better positioned in London but no job has a commute restriction for example HSBC right now doesn't say you must be within xx time of London before application. I mean most CV advice these days is not to put your address but rather a general location so you don't get sifted out for being in a bad area.

 

[12LDA28C]

With an extreme exception, you always have to live within 45 or 60 minutes before applying for trainee driver jobs.

I don't get it, it reduces the pool okay? But it also by that argument allows people that allow for lower quality candidates to do better since the pool is smaller and thus potentially leading to a worse set of drivers surely?

Some people live in rural places, so to apply they have to move away from home before getting a job to a new place.

I have applied for at least two TOCs that do training at places like York but the job itself is as much as 5 hours away or sometimes even more by car to where you work, Why can't you move after getting the job?

I know people who are the children of drivers who apply for and get jobs with depots they live hours away from on the promise they move closer before starting the training. I know someone who got a job and the TOC moved them to a different depot after they got the job even further away pushing them out of the time barrier.

I have never known any job like this, want to be a pilot move afterwards, do air traffic move afterwards, want to be a lawyer, banker, judge, work in a shop, mechanic, engineer etc, it is honestly one of the only UK based jobs for a UK applicant that I know where I need to live here at the job itself before applying but also live within distance of depots so that I can even apply on the off chance they recruit there.

Why is this even a thing? Do they not want only the best rather than the best of an area? I am honestly surprised, and I hate myself for even suggesting this, that no one has ever claimed geographical discrimination or something.

This isn't a rant, I just want to understand why living near GTR means I cannot work for South West or ScotRail or LNER in most cases etc unless I uproot my live just in case or live in a camper moving depot to depot as jobs open.

Very simply, because it makes sense to live near to where you work and various TOCs have been shafted before by people promising to move nearer to their home Depot and then have failed to do so. Be under no illusion either that the 'pool' is greatly reduced - hundreds of people apply for every one driver vacancy. That's the reality of it.

Is the fact a candidate would need to relocate for a position a deciding factor in the shortlisting process?

Yes, absolutely. They wouldn't get through the initial sift, simple as that.

 

[rob788]

Definitely seems like a rant to me. Best of an area is sufficient and there’ll usually be more than enough to meet the criteria.

I don't disagree with your point but that's not how statistics work. A smaller group of people restricted by location logically will sift out higher scorers. It isn't about the people getting the job being inadequate, it's about those with better more suitable scores getting the role based on their skill and attitude, rather than well this is the best we can find in this time zone. Unless anyone anywhere in the UK could apply for roles like most jobs then statistically you will never have the absolute best, only the best of a small area.

 

[AverageJoe]

From a different perspective, I’m a driver and live 20 mins from my depot.

when I have a long day towards then end of my shift I’m really feeling it and having to apply all the techniques to keep properly focused. If that day id had over an hours drive in to work and an hours drive home id say at some point I’d possibly be dangerously tired.

Some work days are easier than other but on those long days with multiple routes and different stopping patterns, maybe driving in the dark too it can be very draining once you are towards the end of your shift.

If anything I’m considering moving a little closer to my depot to avoid the sometimes rush hour and football traffic.

 

[66701GBRF]

It’s not about scores it’s about criteria. If you meet the criteria then you will go into the pool (or get offered the job). It‘s that simple.

 

[AverageJoe]

I don't disagree with your point but that's not how statistics work. A smaller group of people restricted by location logically will sift out higher scorers. It isn't about the people getting the job being inadequate, it's about those with better more suitable scores getting the role based on their skill and attitude, rather than well this is the best we can find in this time zone. Unless anyone anywhere in the UK could apply for roles like most jobs then statistically you will never have the absolute best, only the best of a small area.

How do you determine the best?
A pass is a pass on the psychometrics.

On the interview you can promise the world but then not deliver.

Once you pass those tests you are deemed worth training.

Some still fail the training.

There is without doubt enough quality applicants within the area threshold.

 

[WF4HA5HE]

Th

Yes, absolutely. They wouldn't get through the initial sift, simple as that.

Thank you, I take it that still applies even if your willing to relocate and the application has an option to select saying you'll relocate. I'm only asking as I've applied for a few drivers positions were I would be happy to relocate as there isn't any big depots where I live and seem to get the rejection email sooner then others. To be honest I guess they must of had it multiple times before where people have said they'll relocate 50-100-200 miles away and change there mind last minute.

 

[rob788]

From a different perspective, I’m a driver and live 20 mins from my depot.

when I have a long day towards then end of my shift I’m really feeling it and having to apply all the techniques to keep properly focused. If that day id had over an hours drive in to work and an hours drive home id say at some point I’d possibly be dangerously tired.

Some work days are easier than other but on those long days with multiple routes and different stopping patterns, maybe driving in the dark too it can be very draining once you are towards the end of your shift.

If anything I’m considering moving a little closer to my depot to avoid the sometimes rush hour and football traffic.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating getting people jobs that live 2 hours away, I just think like most other jobs where you have to relocate before starting rather than applying. I am not actually in the game to be a driver anymore, found a fulfilling safety-critical job that didn't require me to move before applying but I'd move to any depot had I still been looking. I know a job in Clacton came up recently, I'd of moved to Clacton. I know people lie about moving closer but then that's something for a tribunal to sort.

My current role affects lives dramatically if done wrong. Just amazing how a pilot can apply for a job in Scotland from England and then move after training let alone getting the job.

How do you determine the best?
A pass is a pass on the psychometrics.

On the interview you can promise the world but then not deliver.

Once you pass those tests you are deemed worth training.

Some still fail the training.

There is without doubt enough quality applicants within the area threshold.

The process has marks or criteria surely? 10 people apply 9 live outside 60 minutes and get 95% overall, someone else lives within 60 minutes and gets 87% they get the job based on their location. By that definition, the worst person in the group got the job.

There is without doubt enough quality applicants within the area threshold.

Perhaps? but that is also impossible to say on a wider scale. Its an opinion.

It’s not about scores it’s about criteria. If you meet the criteria then you will go into the pool (or get offered the job). It‘s that simple.

Criteria is score based. You meet this? yes that's one more than someone else.

Th

Thank you, I take it that still applies even if your willing to relocate and the application has an option to select saying you'll relocate. I'm only asking as I've applied for a few drivers positions were I would be happy to relocate as there isn't any big depots where I live and seem to get the rejection email sooner then others. To be honest I guess they must of had it multiple times before where people have said they'll relocate 50-100-200 miles away and change there mind last minute.

I personally have only ever seen one job that allowed relocation and I am sure that was Wales.

 

[AverageJoe]

@Rob778

Firstly, I’m glad you got a job you are happy with.

Now suppose me and you are neighbours and we both apply for the same trainee driver job.

We both then take and pass the psychometrics and interview.

We are then both offered a job as trainee driver.

Later we find out our results and it turns out you scored 100% on all tests and I only scored 80% on all tests.

Does this mean you will find the training easier or be a better driver? No it doesn’t work that way.

The tests can only show if someone has the qualities that give them a higher chance of being able to complete the training and do the job properly and consistently.

There will be some that fail the tests that are possibly quite capable too but all these psychometrics do is work the odds that if the candidate can pass these then he will likely be able to do the job well.

All drivers have to be good drivers once out there, there isn’t any bad drivers because they will quickly mess up and be off driving if they are.


But it’s already proven that these tocs do get enough pass rates in the area they accept from.

If 4000 are applying for 50 jobs there will be enough.

Also I know your not meaning this but you are also kind of implying that some of us shouldn’t be in this job, maybe we got let in because they couldn’t find the ‘best’ ones.

It also could be said that even if you could apply maybe you wouldn’t make the cut


Edit:

On the pilot travelling also.
I love aviation so follow a few on YouTube.

They do have a safety critical job but the work they do is only intense for short periods that require a lot of concentration, there is also 2 of them and often they can nap on the less intensive periods. But they do have rules to abide by and if they make a mistake because of their travel time it’s on them.

Also they arrive with a pilots licence.

Don’t forget Tocs spend a lot of money training these drivers. It’s an investment to them so they want the ones that will likely stay but also who can definitely handle the job, and I’ve seen it before when a guy outside that hour mark starts pulling sickies or late too often.

 

[rob788]

Also I know your not meaning this but you are also kind of implying that some of us shouldn’t be in this job, maybe we got let in because they couldn’t find the ‘best’ ones.

It also could be said that even if you could apply maybe you wouldn’t make the cut


Edit:

On the pilot travelling also.
I love aviation so follow a few on YouTube.

They do have a safety critical job but the work they do is only intense for short periods that require a lot of concentration, there is also 2 of them and often they can nap on the less intensive periods. But they do have rules to abide by and if they make a mistake because of their travel time it’s on them.

Also they arrive with a pilots licence.

Don’t forget Tocs spend a lot of money training these drivers. It’s an investment to them so they want the ones that will likely stay but also who can definitely handle the job, and I’ve seen it before when a guy outside that hour mark starts pulling sickies or late too often.

Oh honestly please don't get me wrong, I am not saying anyone who has their job shouldn't have it. If people are bad in their job that's for the TOC to sort out, it happens in every job worldwide we all know that. I got the job once as a trainee but I chose my current role because well it has its perks more than I expected. This post was never about me moaning just understanding since TOCs never come out and say it themselves.

I just think objectively like a university, a 1st is better than a 2:1 and always will be to an employer, at the point of entry. I know it doesn't make the person better, but jobs are pre-requisite not by what ifs.

Have to remember, they arrive with that pilot license because they have to pay for it, which is starting to change. Take Air Traffic Control if not, Apply for N.A.T.S, they don't care where you come from as long as you are in position for day 1 of the role.

Thank you for replying sensibly though, it is appreciated.

 

[12LDA28C]

Th

Thank you, I take it that still applies even if your willing to relocate and the application has an option to select saying you'll relocate. I'm only asking as I've applied for a few drivers positions were I would be happy to relocate as there isn't any big depots where I live and seem to get the rejection email sooner then others. To be honest I guess they must of had it multiple times before where people have said they'll relocate 50-100-200 miles away and change there mind last minute.

I can't speak for all TOCs or FOCs but certainly at some companies if you live outside the specified catchment area but do pledge to relocate you will still get sifted out at the first stage. Many TOCs' recruitment departments are short staffed as it is and any reason to whittle down the initial thousands of applications to a manageable number is used.

And people don't generally 'change their mind last minute' about relocating. Often they had no intention of moving in the first place but said whatever they thought would get them through the selection process and then complain that they can't find anywhere close to their home Depot to live and put in for a transfer straight away once qualified.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I don't disagree with your point but that's not how statistics work. A smaller group of people restricted by location logically will sift out higher scorers. It isn't about the people getting the job being inadequate, it's about those with better more suitable scores getting the role based on their skill and attitude, rather than well this is the best we can find in this time zone. Unless anyone anywhere in the UK could apply for roles like most jobs then statistically you will never have the absolute best, only the best of a small area.

It’s a train driver’s job. As long as you have a decent aptitude, you can (in most cases) do the job. You’re not going to change or revolutionise the job just because you got a slightly higher score in the testing. It’s come up before and not everyone will agree but I think it’s good that locals, particularly in remote areas like Fort William or Isle of Wight, get a chance and don’t lose out on an opportunity when a vacancy very rarely comes up to someone not from the area.

 

[Horizon22]

Universal in the UK yes. For the record though with pilots... no. You apply and go to a school then after you finish training you are given a port you fly from. Though it is a job you technically buy into for the most part due to its cost of training being on you until you get a few years in and they pay the loan, you pay the interest.

Okay but living 2 hours away from the airport isn't going to be ideal either.

I can't think of a single job that has an example of specifically asking you to be in location before applying though. Yes for finance you are better positioned in London but no job has a commute restriction for example HSBC right now doesn't say you must be within xx time of London before application. I mean most CV advice these days is not to put your address but rather a general location so you don't get sifted out for being in a bad area.

Not that many jobs have such strict fatigue guidelines and a high safety record. In this regard, the railway is in some ways ahead of other industries to ensure individuals with an intensive knowledge in a procedural, safety-critical role, responsible for up to 1000 passengers moving people across all hours of the day are in a position to be (there is still personal responsibility of course) well rested before and after 9-10 hour shifts without adding over 2 hours on top trying to concentrate driving (likely driving due to the shifts). Whilst not related necessarily to distance from work - as just one example - look at how the Croydon Tram crash in 2016 was impacted by fatigue.

With regards to London, I more meant that you are unlikely to have as many opportunities in Carlisle as you are for London for the career you have selected (finance). If someone was expecting you to be in the office 5 days a week, I'm pretty sure the CV from Carlisle would be sifted out...

If you really wanted to become a train driver, you could move to an area with lots of depots nearby. But even then, you'd still have to pass through the pyschometrics and hundreds of applicants will have met the locational time limit.

Have to remember, they arrive with that pilot license because they have to pay for it, which is starting to change. Take Air Traffic Control if not, Apply for N.A.T.S, they don't care where you come from as long as you are in position for day 1 of the role.

The railway has been burned by "promises" like this before. As I said, it's not like they are desperate for trainees; each position gets plenty of applicants, people are kept in talent pools for years in some cases and recruitment teams are small. It's very much an 'employer's market'.

 

[AverageJoe]

Oh honestly please don't get me wrong, I am not saying anyone who has their job shouldn't have it. If people are bad in their job that's for the TOC to sort out, it happens in every job worldwide we all know that. I got the job once as a trainee but I chose my current role because well it has its perks more than I expected. This post was never about me moaning just understanding since TOCs never come out and say it themselves.

I just think objectively like a university, a 1st is better than a 2:1 and always will be to an employer, at the point of entry. I know it doesn't make the person better, but jobs are pre-requisite not by what ifs.

Have to remember, they arrive with that pilot license because they have to pay for it, which is starting to change. Take Air Traffic Control if not, Apply for N.A.T.S, they don't care where you come from as long as you are in position for day 1 of the role.

Thank you for replying sensibly though, it is appreciated.

Well let’s compare it to university then.

So yes a 1st is better than a 2.1.
However that is the final qualification, not the entry requirements.

Someone could take the same university course as another and let’s for arguments sake say the entry requirement for that course was all B’s.

Now one person may have all B’s and be accepted on the course and another may have all A’s and be accepted on the course.

Does that mean the person with all A’s will finish with a higher score? Nope.

It may well be that the person with the B’s is the one that leaves with a 1st and the person with A’s finishes with a 2.1.

So even if they did open up the recruitment for train drivers to the whole of the country choosing the highest pass rate on the psychometrics wouldn’t mean you have some type of bionic man train driver.

It’s a bit of a pointless discussion at this point though because as we know how it’s done now works perfectly fine for the recruiting tocs.