70/80s layout - advice needed

[blackettstreet]

I'm building a layout set in the 1970s/80s in the North East. I only have 8'x4' so it's not very big at all, just a two-track branch with a station and small yard.
I have a couple of questions - I know many members will actually remember what the railways were like then - so:

For passenger services - I'm going to run sort of 3-coach trains hauled by 31s and 47s, plus Class 108/similar DMUs. But I don't want the layout to seem too old, so I want to mix some newer stock in. On branch/ secondary lines, particularly in the North, what were the first things to replace 108s and the like?

For freight - there's a small yard served by trips/ pick-up-ish/ local services - not entirely prototypical but more fun to operate! How can I actually unload freight from any kind of wagon without shelling out £400 for a Heljan crane? Or will I just have to run vans and imagine the loading/ unloading? Also, what sort of wagons ran with Speedlink? I'm going to put some older mineral wagons and stuff on the layout, but also some newer stuff like Railfreight vans. Did older freight stock ever run in Speedlink services?

Help much appreciated

 

[EM2]

This book is excellent for modelling that era:
http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/modelling-the-british-rail-era.html

 

[theblackwatch]

From what I remember, it was mainly 101s in the North East rather than 108s in the late 1970s and early 1980s. They were replaced by 143s - there is no ready to run model of these, but they were soon joined by some Class 142s (in chocolate/cream 'Skipper' livery). Hope this helps a bit.

 

[blackettstreet]

From what I remember, it was mainly 101s in the North East rather than 108s in the late 1970s and early 1980s. They were replaced by 143s - there is no ready to run model of these, but they were soon joined by some Class 142s (in chocolate/cream 'Skipper' livery). Hope this helps a bit.

I see....I don't suppose it was a sudden change? Was it possible for a time to see 101s and 143s in the area?

 

[142094]

I see....I don't suppose it was a sudden change? Was it possible for a time to see 101s and 143s in the area?

Yes, sure I've seen some pictures of Central where both of them were. Unfortunately they were on Fotopic which has bitten the dust.

143s went down south and we got the 142s in. Been the same ever since, apart from the 156s and a few 158s now and then.

 

[blackettstreet]

Yes, sure I've seen some pictures of Central where both of them were. Unfortunately they were on Fotopic which has bitten the dust.

143s went down south and we got the 142s in. Been the same ever since, apart from the 156s and a few 158s now and then.

thanks for the info. just seems wierd to me, i cant actually picture 101s and 142s together!:-? i will probably use this though

anyone know about freight? (or pics of 101s with 142s/3s?)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't help with pictures but I can say that if you are going to model in OO gauge, RealTrack are going to release a model of a 143 at some point next year, although you may have to respray it for the earlier liveries.

http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/dc_kits/realtrack_models_ready_to_run_/class_143_144_dmu.php

 

[sprinterguy]

thanks for the info. just seems wierd to me, i cant actually picture 101s and 142s together!:-? i will probably use this though

Well, 142s and 101s side by side was a regular occurence in Manchester right up until 2001. But as for the North East, there was certainly a period in the mid to late eighties where 101s worked alongside the new Pacers (I don't know of any pics, sorry).

Additionally, on some routes like the Durham Coast there were loco hauled "Pacer Replacer" trains in the eighties which were drafted in to deputise for the initially unreliable Pacer units. These would take the form of a class 47 or perhaps a 31 with a rake of 3/4 mark 1s.

 

[blackettstreet]

Additionally, on some routes like the Durham Coast there were loco hauled "Pacer Replacer" trains in the eighties which were drafted in to deputise for the initially unreliable Pacer units. These would take the form of a class 47 or perhaps a 31 with a rake of 3/4 mark 1s.

that is exactly what i was hoping to do, due to lack of space! good to hear that this actually happened!

 

[sprinterguy]

that is exactly what i was hoping to do, due to lack of space! good to hear that this actually happened!

Yeah I noticed that you wished to run such formations in your opening post, so now you have the perfect reason to!

I wonder if PinzaC55 will be around at some point to see this thread? I hope that he will be, as he has en extensive knowledge of North East rail operations in the seventies and eighties.

 

[DarloRich]

Additionally, on some routes like the Durham Coast there were loco hauled "Pacer Replacer" trains in the eighties which were drafted in to deputise for the initially unreliable Pacer units. These would take the form of a class 47 or perhaps a 31 with a rake of 3/4 mark 1s.

PLUS you always had the MGR trains from the Durham Coalfield. (:cry::cry Now clearly that cant be modeled to scale on a small layout BUT there must be something to do? What about a fueling point so some filthy 56's can come and go every so often.


You can always take a look at Pinzas flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/

 

[sprinterguy]

PLUS you always had the MGR trains from the Durham Coalfield. (:cry::cry Now clearly that cant be modeled to scale on a small layout BUT there must be something to do? What about a fueling point so some filthy 56's can come and go every so often.

I was thinking of mentioning that: I don't know first hand what the North East freight scene was like in the seventies and eighties, I'm too young for that, but I clearly recall dirty grey 56s hauling dark strings of rattling HAA coal hoppers all around the place as a kid in the early nineties. Them were the days...

What I do know for a fact is that coal traffic had been a dominant part of the North East freight scene for decades before that: I mean, the whole reason that railways originally came about in the first place was to shift North East coal!

In the seventies, there were still a lot of rakes of HTV vacuum braked 21 tonne hoppers about, utilised in their thousands on coal and iron ore traffic. These wagons were similar to the twenty tonne hopper modelled by Hornby for many years, as they were based on a 1930s LNER design. As far as I can tell, these were generally hauled by 37s. They started to be withdrawn in great swathes when the class 56s appeared on the scene (late seventies) for working with the familiar air-braked HAA coal hoppers that worked on into this century.

Class 37s were also used on the heavy Tees-side steel traffic from South Wales, often in pairs. From 1985/6 (IIRC) Thornaby gained a dedicated fleet of the first of the newly converted class 37/5s for this traffic.

The Speedlink traffic ensured that the freight scene at the time was pretty varied. If you're going to be modelling a small freight yard to allow for some interesting shunting movements, blackettstreet, then I would suggest you get your hands on a class 03 shunter (Bachmann do a very good model): They were ubiquitous around the north east in the seventies and eighties on shunting, trip and transfer work. Newcastle Central had a couple that were used on station pilot duties, though they were gone by the time I was born: Newcastle station still had a resident 08 shunter apparently when I was very young, but even that was gone before I could form any clear memories.

 

[142094]

There is a good video somewhere called Railfreight in the North East or similar. Got a DVD copy off eBay for a few quid, shows quite a lot of the stuff in the late 80s and early 90s. Worth a look if you can get a copy.

 

[4SRKT]

Brand new 143s at Newcastle taken by me in March 1986. Old station layout with lots of bays at the East end still in place.

 

[4SRKT]

I was thinking of mentioning that: I don't know first hand what the North East freight scene was like in the seventies and eighties, I'm too young for that, but I clearly recall dirty grey 56s hauling dark strings of rattling HAA coal hoppers all around the place as a kid in the early nineties. Them were the days...

What I do know for a fact is that coal traffic had been a dominant part of the North East freight scene for decades before that: I mean, the whole reason that railways originally came about in the first place was to shift North East coal!

In the seventies, there were still a lot of rakes of HTV vacuum braked 21 tonne hoppers about, utilised in their thousands on coal and iron ore traffic. These wagons were similar to the twenty tonne hopper modelled by Hornby for many years, as they were based on a 1930s LNER design. As far as I can tell, these were generally hauled by 37s. They started to be withdrawn in great swathes when the class 56s appeared on the scene (late seventies) for working with the familiar air-braked HAA coal hoppers that worked on into this century.

Class 37s were also used on the heavy Tees-side steel traffic from South Wales, often in pairs. From 1985/6 (IIRC) Thornaby gained a dedicated fleet of the first of the newly converted class 37/5s for this traffic.

The Speedlink traffic ensured that the freight scene at the time was pretty varied. If you're going to be modelling a small freight yard to allow for some interesting shunting movements, blackettstreet, then I would suggest you get your hands on a class 03 shunter (Bachmann do a very good model): They were ubiquitous around the north east in the seventies and eighties on shunting, trip and transfer work. Newcastle Central had a couple that were used on station pilot duties, though they were gone by the time I was born: Newcastle station still had a resident 08 shunter apparently when I was very young, but even that was gone before I could form any clear memories.

Gateshead 31s, 37s and 56s were among the filthiest locos operating on the railway in the mid-80s. In fact the only depot regularly turning out dirtier machines was Thornaby, so maybe it was a North East thing! GD kept its duffs in a better state of cleanliness though TBF, but the state of the 46s in the last couple of years was often pretty disreputable as well.

When were you born? Newcastle's station pilot was an 03 for many, many years; well into my late teens, which would make it late 80s. Tyneside Central Freight Depot was usually an 08 IIRR, as were the Tyne Yard shunters, although I doubt 03s could have done the hump. Class 03 pilot at Berwick shown in attached photo here:

 

[sprinterguy]

Gateshead 31s, 37s and 56s were among the filthiest locos operating on the railway in the mid-80s. In fact the only depot regularly turning out dirtier machines was Thornaby, so maybe it was a North East thing! GD kept its duffs in a better state of cleanliness though TBF, but the state of the 46s in the last couple of years was often pretty disreputable as well.

When were you born? Newcastle's station pilot was an 03 for many, many years; well into my late teens, which would make it late 80s. Tyneside Central Freight Depot was usually an 08 IIRR, as were the Tyne Yard shunters, although I doubt 03s could have done the hump. Class 03 pilot at Berwick shown in attached photo here:

I was born in 1990: I've got some pretty clear memories from a very young age onwards, so I can remember Provincial blue 143s, brand new IC Swallow 91s and coal sector 56s. I've seen some pictures and Youtube videos of Newcastle station with an 08 acting as a station pilot, and quite a few mail vans in evidence, in the south end bay platforms in late 1990, but even my earliest recollections of that side of the station saw it pretty quiet with just the thunderbird 47 stabled in platform 12.

My childhood recollections of Newcastle station mainly involve the best part of the station being wrapped in scaffolding, which seemed to be the case for several years!

 

[4SRKT]

Youngster!

 

[sprinterguy]

Youngster!

Yep, with all the joys of being 21!

 

[4SRKT]

Yep, with all the joys of being 21!

Indeed. I'd somehow got the idea that you were a few years older than that. Still, you never got to see an 03 on pilot duties at Newcastle, so it's not all bad being an old timer!

 

[sprinterguy]

Indeed. I'd somehow got the idea that you were a few years older than that.

It seems to be quite a common phenomenon on this forum; you sometimes don't realise how young some of the most established members and posters are! I can't get my head around the fact that some members, some/most of which make well informed and mature posts, were born within the privatisation era! How time flies...

I've done a lot of reading around over the years on the stuff that I just missed out on, and the things that were going on when I was very young, which has of course helped to fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle around my childhood memories.

 

[4SRKT]

And likewise being 40 I don't really feel old. Certainly not as old as I thought my parents were when they were my age. Things like 03s on pilot duties at Newcastle or hearing hump shunting at Dringhouses Yard late into the evening (a surprisingly soothing sound, followed by the awesome sounds of 37s starting the Speedlinks on their nocturnal journeys, <sigh>) seem not that long ago, but in reality they are ancient history and many people who are adults and [sometimes ] mature people have no more recollection of them than I do of old money or steam locos. Feels a bit weird when you put it like that.

 

[Zamracene749]

Hi Blackettstreet, as has already been mentioned most 1st gen DMU services up here were class 101 worked, replaced initially by 143s.

However, your 108 will not be totally out of place- in the late 80s there were workings into Newcastle from Carlisle that turned out 108s, one in particular returned all the way back to Barrow in Furness!

I'm sure I can remember travelling in a Cravens (105) unit from Sunderland to Newcastle as well, although that was probably late 70s rather than 80s.

Also in can remeber there was an ex Cardiff valleys 104/11x hybrid? that used to work Darlington- Whitby services for a while.

A couple of loco classes not mentioned up to now but in period for your layout are 46 and 25, the 46s often found on cross country services and 25s doing occasional dmu replacements.

HTH

 

[Spaceflower]

There were alot of smaller branch lines with small yards, in quarries and storage areas in and around the collieries in the late 80's. Many operated a wide variety of shunters, not just class 03's and 08's and were privately owned.

There was a branch from ECML at Ferryhill to Raisby quarry nr Coxhoe, for example.

Also, there was a branch from the merrygoround line at South Hetton (Hawthorn shaft colliery) which ran 2 mile or so to a stockpile quarry. regularly worked by a shunter until early 90's with dead old wagons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
these wagons were in use on the latter branch until it closed in the early 90's.

http://www.east-durham.co.uk/seaham/railways/pages/image/imagepage82.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
this was the kind of shunter used

http://www.east-durham.co.uk/seaham/railways/pages/image/imagepage93.html

 

[pinkpanther]

I grew up in Bishop Auckland, and as others have said 101s were the norm (though Darlington had the odd 105 DTC/DMCL knocking around for a bit of variety).

The only time I saw a 108 in the NE it had tripped over to Newcastle from Carlisle (though usually that was a 101 turn as well, but even a 40 or a Peak could appear on occasion!).

Thornaby/Gateshead 31s, 37s or 47s would all be safe bets for freight or occasional passenger services, though at Darlo you'd see just about everything else - 40s, 45s/46s, 20s, 25s, 56s and even the occasional 50 on a test run from Doncaster. For shunters 08s and the occasional 03 will fit right in.

I won't mention Deltics as they didn't usually venture onto the branches (apart from Leamside...).

Have fun - it's an interesting location/period to model!

 

[blackettstreet]

i have done some general research....... i'm going to run quite a lot of trip/ pick up freight from the yard, with 31s, 47s, 40s etc plus maybe a loco point for all these mucky 56s i'm told of!
if i run a longer train than the visible part of the layout (a deltic plus 6 coaches or something like that) then it'll maybe look like an express.... i will experiment.
i'll also run 3/4 coach trains with 47s and 31s plus class 101s.
does anyone know of pics of 101s/ similar and 143s in the same place? would be much appreciated as i can't really visualise it

 

[flymo]

does anyone know of pics of 101s/ similar and 143s in the same place? would be much appreciated as i can't really visualise it

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p344967026/h19a9ad2a#h19a9ad2a is taken at Darlo

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p344967026/h13232f1d#h13232f1d at Newcastle, looks to be in the old P6 & P7 at the east end bays. (I think, the memory is a bit hazy)

 

[blackettstreet]

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p344967026/h19a9ad2a#h19a9ad2a is taken at Darlo

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p344967026/h13232f1d#h13232f1d at Newcastle, looks to be in the old P4 & P5 at the east end bays. (I think, the memory is a bit hazy)

ah, perfect! thanks

 

[Madge Wildfire]

I'm building a layout set in the 1970s/80s in the North East. I only have 8'x4' so it's not very big at all, just a two-track branch with a station and small yard.
I have a couple of questions - I know many members will actually remember what the railways were like then - so:

For passenger services - I'm going to run sort of 3-coach trains hauled by 31s and 47s, plus Class 108/similar DMUs. But I don't want the layout to seem too old, so I want to mix some newer stock in. On branch/ secondary lines, particularly in the North, what were the first things to replace 108s and the like?

For freight - there's a small yard served by trips/ pick-up-ish/ local services - not entirely prototypical but more fun to operate! How can I actually unload freight from any kind of wagon without shelling out £400 for a Heljan crane? Or will I just have to run vans and imagine the loading/ unloading? Also, what sort of wagons ran with Speedlink? I'm going to put some older mineral wagons and stuff on the layout, but also some newer stuff like Railfreight vans. Did older freight stock ever run in Speedlink services?

Help much appreciated

Speedlink services could contain a mixture of almost any air braked wagon, and older wagons could be seen if they had been refurbished.

Type "railway speedlink" into a search engine and look at the uk images for some ideas.

For instance, here is one that I found

http://www.toton-rail.co.uk/fullsize/37260moss.jpg

Also, HBA or HSA wagons appeared very regularly in Speedlink services.

Here is another one with cartics in the consist.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2674/3877564328_5086c6f213.jpg

As I mentioned, if it was air braked then you can be sure it would appear at some time.

 

[blackettstreet]

thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated

 

[Winterbournecm]

With regard to your yard, you could have a wagon repair works which could have any type of wagon in. The other option is a Speedlink yard which, again, could feature HEAs with domestic coal, VGAs with any commodity, OTAs timber etc..