802207 Hitachi testing battery power for Transpennine

[Meerkat]

Can the battery accept regenerative charging from the whole train, or just that coach?

 

[800001]

Can the battery accept regenerative charging from the whole train, or just that coach?

Presume the whole train, as it recharges when train is braking and also when train is on electric power

 

[Meerkat]

Presume the whole train, as it recharges when train is braking and also when train is on electric power

My electrical knowledge is too limited to know whether the power bus automatically means the whole train’s brake regeneration could charge to one coach’s battery. I know the 8** defo have a power bus - chunky wires between the coaches.

 

[InTheEastMids]

My electrical knowledge is too limited to know whether the power bus automatically means the whole train’s brake regeneration could charge to one coach’s battery. I know the 8** defo have a power bus - chunky wires between the coaches.

I'm sure part of the purpose of the trial is to explore different recharging strategies to explore range Vs performance Vs fuel/emissions savings. Plus also considering optimum battery sizes and whether there are 2, 1 or 0 residual gensets.

I expect they want to get a pretty good idea of what "the answer" will be for all 80x fleets/operators

 

[Meerkat]

I'm sure part of the purpose of the trial is to explore different recharging strategies to explore range Vs performance Vs fuel/emissions savings. Plus also considering optimum battery sizes and whether there are 2, 1 or 0 residual gensets.

I expect they want to get a pretty good idea of what "the answer" will be for all 80x fleets/operators

When looking at range how much would they be willing to rely on regeneration - presumably a delayed slow trip would make quite a difference?

 

[800001]

Goo articles on both Rail Express and Modern Railways where Hitachi talk specifically about the battery trial

 

[poffle]

Presume the whole train, as it recharges when train is braking and also when train is on electric power

In normal operation any regenerated power has to be fed back through one pantograph. Presumably the battery is mounted close to the pantograph.

 

[800001]

The unit is due to do its first run across the Pennines ronight (since batteries installed) to Liverpool Lime Street.
Path attached below from RTT:-

Realtime Trains | 5Q55 2125 Merchant Park Sidings to Liverpool Lime Street | 09/09/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q55 2125 departure from Merchant Park Sidings to Liverpool Lime Street on 09/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Nottingham59]

Has anyone heard how this trial is going?

Are Hitachi any closer to achieving their stated goal of providing "real-world evidence to inform the business case for a 100 per cent battery-electric intercity train, capable of running up to 100km in battery mode. This range would allow battery technology to cover the final non-electrified sections of Britain’s intercity routes in the coming years. Battery trains or battery-electric hybrids could also offer reduced infrastructure costs versus full electrification, by reducing the need for overhead wires in tunnel sections and over complex junctions."

 

[Geeves]

As far as observations enroute they seem to be running the tests successfully, running on time on the longest route across country. Certainly when it's passed me it's nice and quiet with just the hum of the motors.

 

[Snow1964]

Although the tests are being done with a Transpennine unit, I wonder if they will trial it over other IET routes towards end of tests to get real world data.

Lots of potential routes, Swindon-Gloucester-Cardiff, Chippenham-Bath-Taunton, Cardiff-Swansea etc.

There are number of IETs running without full complement of diesel-generator sets working, so replacing one with batteries would increase the spares pool and reduce diesel usage hours.

 

[800001]

Although the tests are being done with a Transpennine unit, I wonder if they will trial it over other IET routes towards end of tests to get real world data.

Lots of potential routes, Swindon-Gloucester-Cardiff, Chippenham-Bath-Taunton, Cardiff-Swansea etc.

There are number of IETs running without full complement of diesel-generator sets working, so replacing one with batteries would increase the spares pool and reduce diesel usage hours.

It’s nearing end of trials, unit needs battery removing and engine replaced.

Unit is needed back by TPE for December timetable.

All Hitachi’s publicity states would be tested on the TransPennine route.

 

[3RDGEN]

Although the tests are being done with a Transpennine unit, I wonder if they will trial it over other IET routes towards end of tests to get real world data.

Lots of potential routes, Swindon-Gloucester-Cardiff, Chippenham-Bath-Taunton, Cardiff-Swansea etc.

There are number of IETs running without full complement of diesel-generator sets working, so replacing one with batteries would increase the spares pool and reduce diesel usage hours.

Problem is that it would require driver training/briefing on the unit and the differences, given it's just one unit there's ever chance a driver wouldn't have that unit for months on end leading to possible issues. TPE gave that as a reason for not running the modified unit in passenger service once testing was completed. Hull Trains or Lumo could be possible options given their much smaller operation.

 

[172007]

It would be nice tbh, for Hitachi to allow it to be used as a measurement train with Network Rail and be able to use part of it to trail new techs etc whilst getting real world milleage accumulation around the Network.

 

[D365]

It would be nice tbh, for Hitachi to allow it to be used as a measurement train with Network Rail and be able to use part of it to trail new techs etc whilst getting real world milleage accumulation around the Network.

Hitachi doesn’t own the 802s. Most/all are owned by Angel Trains.

 

[172007]

Hitachi doesn’t own the 802s. Most/all are owned by Angel Trains.

Well yes you are correct but doesn't change my suggestion as to how one or two should be utilised regardless owner.

 

[Snow1964]

Number of news sites are carrying update on results
Saving of fuel nearer 50% vs target of 30%
Successfully achieved of 75mph

Hitachi Rail has said that the results from its intercity battery trial are better than expected. The project, which was led by Hitachi Rail and included partners, Angel Trains and TransPennine Express said the project had demonstrated that battery technology could work across the network and could realise its potential as an alternative traction option.

The trial has been running for several months and has seen a Class 802 TransPennine bi-mode train replacing its diesel engine with a battery power unit. It then had several months of dynamic testing on several routes to understand how effective it could be.

The results showed that significant fuel savings with the train achieving fuel cost savings of up to 50%. Hitachi Rail said that initial projections at the beginning of the trial was 30%. As well as fuel saving benefits, the train also met its journey and performance requirements, as well as exceeding speeds of 75 mph.

Speaking at the event at Hitachi Rail’s Newton Aycliffe factory to signal the end of the trial, Jim Brewin, Chief Director of UK & Ireland at Hitachi Rail said: “Everyone should be immensely proud of creating battery technology that had zero failures during the entire trial. Using our global expertise, Hitachi Rail has created new technology which means the greenest mode of transport, just got greener.”

The project has included battery technology originally designed by Hitachi Rail but further developed by Turntide Technologies, which is based in Sunderland. It has included significant investment by the project partners. However, other manufacturers in the U.K are also pushing ahead with battery bi-mode trains including Siemens, who is currently discussing replacing aging fleets from multiple operators with its fast-charging battery technology.

Hitachi Rail's intercity battery trial shows better than expected results

Hitachi Rail has said that the results from its intercity battery trial are better than expected.

www.railmagazine.com

 

[swt_passenger]

To be more accurate, shouldn’t RAIL have written “replacing one of its three diesel engines with a battery”?

 

[Narrowgauge725]

To be more accurate, shouldn’t RAIL have written “replacing one of its three diesel engines with a battery”?

Yes and a real test would have been for all the engines to be replaced by batteries

 

[Nottingham59]

To be more accurate, shouldn’t RAIL have written “replacing one of its three diesel engines with a battery”?

One should be enough to get the data they need.
The battery pack was as powerful as an engine, and presumably could take charge at at least that rate.

And a DMU typically spends an awful lot of its journey running at low power settings or tickover

 

[swt_passenger]

One should be enough to get the data they need.
The battery pack was as powerful as an engine, and presumably could take charge at at least that rate.

And a DMU typically spends an awful lot of its journey running at low power settings or tickover

I was only trying to point out that I think Rail should have made it clearer that it was only one of three engines. We don’t know yet if they intend to try a full battery EMU with no diesel power, I think a few posts might be getting ahead of the reality.

 

[172007]

One should be enough to get the data they need.
The battery pack was as powerful as an engine, and presumably could take charge at at least that rate.

And a DMU typically spends an awful lot of its journey running at low power settings or tickover

The bottom comment was also a point raised with class 93's. Whilst the battery is limited in size once the train is upto speed can the Diesal Powerpacks charge the battery.

Whilst being able to charge the battery on the move might not be an obvious usefull to have it may be desirable in certain locations to have a fully charged battery so the train can operate on electric due to noise or environmental issues at city centre stations, locations where braking may not fully charge the batteries.

 

[800001]

I was only trying to point out that I think Rail should have made it clearer that it was only one of three engines. We don’t know yet if they intend to try a full battery EMU with no diesel power, I think a few posts might be getting ahead of the reality.

I think the press release or Hitachi stated ‘engines were removed’ as the local Northern Echo Paper also says engines were removed.

 

[Bryson]

I think the press release or Hitachi stated ‘engines were removed’ as the local Northern Echo Paper also says engines were removed.

But the fuel saving was said to be 50%, if all the engines had been removed why wasn't this 100%? The exact configuration of the test unit doesn't seam to be clear from the reports.

I'd guess that there were still diesel engines installed and operating when necessary (using battery power only at low speeds), if this is the case then there must surely be a case to roll this modification out to the 8xx fleets.

 

[Nottingham59]

I think the press release or Hitachi stated ‘engines were removed’ as the local Northern Echo Paper also says engines were removed.

There's an article in Modern Railways which explains what they did.

Hitachi battery trial delivers 50% fuel saving

Development of full battery-electric intercity train next for Hitachi

www.modernrailways.com

No 802207 was fitted with a 700kW battery developed by Turntide Technologies, based in Sunderland. It has proven able to power the train to speeds of more than 75mph while achieving all journey times and performance requirements. The battery weighs the same as the diesel engine and alternator it replaced and was installed in the same underfloor space on the train.
Testing has focused on using battery power as the train arrives and departs from stations in non-electrified areas to reduce emissions in urban areas. It powered the unit for a mile either side of stations, switching to diesel traction.
Evaluation suggested that a single battery on an Intercity Express Train-type unit can deliver the claimed fuel savings, which are dependent on train settings, battery usage and driving style. An ‘Eco mode’ where the battery entirely powers the train on approach to and departure from stations delivered the greatest saving. The train also operated under battery power for a range of 43 miles, which Hitachi says is ‘more than adequate’ to cover non-electrified sections under bridges and tunnels, and final stretches of routes.

Hitachi is now developing a full battery-electric inter-city train which would have a range of between 60 and 90 miles, enabling it to cover long sections of non-electrified routes, and potentially avoiding the need for electrification in areas where engineering or commercial considerations make it too expensive.

 

[Snow1964]

The battery pack is 700kw (938HP) so same output as diesel generator (although probably few percent more output as diesel-generators are not 100% efficient).

I guess on a 5 car set, that does not go too far off the wires probably makes sense to have 3 batteries and no diesel, but on a set going to somewhere like Cornwall where might be doing 200-300 miles off the wires, before getting back to electrified section then opposite might be true.

As far as I'm aware there are (GWR) sets that are one engine down, due to lack of spares and/or insufficient time to repair them before set is needed, so buying a few dozen battery packs, and putting the spare diesel-generators into spares pool might be best solution nationally.

Now the concept is proved, really need someone to order a 5 or 6car regional train (rather than high speed intercity version) for those long 3 or 4 hour secondary routes, eg Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Nottingham, Cardiff-Penzanze etc

 

[Nottingham59]

I guess on a 5 car set, that does not go too far off the wires probably makes sense to have 3 batteries and no diesel, but on a set going to somewhere like Cornwall where might be doing 200-300 miles off the wires, before getting back to electrified section then opposite might be true.

I'd propose that a long-distance 5-car 802 should be two battery packs and one diesel. One diesel would be plenty to meet the average load over the course of a long off-wire regional journey, with the batteries used for regenerative braking and to accelerate back to line speed after station calls.

With 40 miles of range from each battery, two packs would get you half way from Bristol to Penzance.

I'd guess that two diesels might be better for a 9-car 802B, for redundancy, and three battery packs.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Successfully achieved of 75mph

Does anyone know if this was achieved running on just the battery, or the battery+remaining gensets?

I'd propose that a long-distance 5-car 802 should be two battery packs and one diesel

As an interim step, yes the obvious thing is to get 1 genset out of each 80X, on passenger services not just endless testing.
But really should be building charging hubs/short sections of electrified railway to allow destination charging, and completely bin the diesels.

Sitting up here in EMR land, it's ironic that the 810s are going to enter service just after their design has been shown to be obsolete.

I also hope this doesn't mean any more 80X orders. Using GWR's fleet this week, once I'd noticed that the step up between the platform and train is colossal, I really couldn't unsee it,
Having a V12 diesel under the floor is obviously a part of that, and given the flexibility and modularity of battery technology, it would be absolutely criminal if the next generation of rolling stock failed customers in this way.

 

[Noddy]

The battery pack is 700kw (938HP) so same output as diesel generator (although probably few percent more output as diesel-generators are not 100% efficient).

I guess on a 5 car set, that does not go too far off the wires probably makes sense to have 3 batteries and no diesel, but on a set going to somewhere like Cornwall where might be doing 200-300 miles off the wires, before getting back to electrified section then opposite might be true.

As far as I'm aware there are (GWR) sets that are one engine down, due to lack of spares and/or insufficient time to repair them before set is needed, so buying a few dozen battery packs, and putting the spare diesel-generators into spares pool might be best solution nationally.

Now the concept is proved, really need someone to order a 5 or 6car regional train (rather than high speed intercity version) for those long 3 or 4 hour secondary routes, eg Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Nottingham, Cardiff-Penzanze etc

There's an article in Modern Railways which explains what they did.

Hitachi battery trial delivers 50% fuel saving

Development of full battery-electric intercity train next for Hitachi

www.modernrailways.com

Pedant alert but despite what is written in the article, the battery will not have been 700kw. It might have been 700kWh and/or it might be attached to motor that can generate 700kW (probably the existing motor(s) from the sounds of it) but the battery is not 700kw.

 

[hexagon789]

Pedant alert but despite what is written in the article, the battery will not have been 700kw. It might have been 700kWh and/or it might be attached to motor that can generate 700kW (probably the existing motor(s) from the sounds of it) but the battery is not 700kw.

The traction motors on the 800-807s are rated at 226kW each, continuous. (The 810s have a different rating.)