80x seating - Fainsa vs. what Lumo/Avanti are using

[61248]

I’ve also been on 3 long to short journeys on a gwr 800 and only my elbow was a tad sore thanks o the armrest being too narrow.

Agree with you, don’t know where these torture comments are coming fRom

After some use the seats have become a bit more comfortable,my 1st journeys on GWR & LNER class 800 series trains left me in pain,now the same length journeys (just short of 2 hours) are no problem

 

[Jim the Jim]

My only experience of the GWR IET seats is when commuting from Cambridge to Oxford a couple of years ago. After having suffered the truly awful seats on the Cambridge-KX leg I can't say I noticed any issues with the GWR ones at all!

 

[supervc-10]

Been on AT300s with Hull Trains, TPE, and LNER.

All fine for me, personally, but I also find the fairly firm seats in my car very comfortable for long journeys. Also been on TPE's 397 recently, which has the same seats but with a leatherette headrest. I think it lifts the cabin ambience nicely but I don't think it changes seat comfort at all!
The only exception was that on the LNER train our reservations were for one of the pairs of seats by the door pocket, which as my fiance and I are both fairly burly guys.... didn't work brilliantly given that we're already a squeeze width wise!

They're not good seats though, and a better seat base would likely go a long way to improving things.

 

[Goldfish62]

Lumo seat is called 'Transcal Aerolite'.

I really think the unacceptable Fainsa seats should all be ripped out and replaced with Transcal at this point.

The two aren't even comparable, with the Fainsa resulting in immediate discomfort, whereas the Transcal is easily tolerable for many hours.

Ah, that's interesting. Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways is a big Transcal fan. It was they who recushioned the 1st Class seats on GWR's HSTs.

 

[tornado]

What is the model of seat on TPE 397 first class? I think it's also Fainsa.

 

[superalbs]

What is the model of seat on TPE 397 first class? I think it's also Fainsa.

Yes, slightly different variant of the Fainsa MD.

 

[Mikey C]

Lumo seat is called 'Transcal Aerolite'.

I really think the unacceptable Fainsa seats should all be ripped out and replaced with Transcal at this point.

The two aren't even comparable, with the Fainsa resulting in immediate discomfort, whereas the Transcal is easily tolerable for many hours.

Maybe as part of the Integrated Rail Plan announcement last week, the government could have avoided some of the flak from cancelling HS2 East to Leeds by announcing that all the Azuma seats will be replaced

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe as part of the Integrated Rail Plan announcement last week, the government could have avoided some of the flak from cancelling HS2 East to Leeds by announcing that all the Azuma seats will be replaced

I thought they suggested that a while ago. It wouldn't be a stupid investment, as the Sophias could be put into local trains for which they are designed (they're fine for a half hour journey), replacing older, falling-to-bits seating like Richmonds as well as uncomfortable "flat" ironing boards in the likes of 700s. Coupled with reduced commuting, it only takes a ride in a full-and-standing 2-car 195 (and finding one of those isn't hard) to work out that the narrower seats* in 700s aren't what makes most of the difference in speed of loading/unloading (rather it's the standbacks and wide doorways) and so wider seats with armrests would be a good improvement for longer distance passengers in those units.

* The issue being is that the busy times are commuter times on those units, and most commuters are men, and two average men won't fit side by side on those very narrow seats without armrests without one of them sticking out into the aisle - so taking up the same amount of width as wider seats in which they can properly fit. Sophias would be ideal for this purpose.

 

[Mikey C]

* The issue being is that the busy times are commuter times on those units, and most commuters are men, and two average men won't fit side by side on those very narrow seats without armrests without one of them sticking out into the aisle - so taking up the same amount of width as wider seats in which they can properly fit. Sophias would be ideal for this purpose.

I've had had exact issue, especially in winter with everyone wearing thicker coats. It was a really uncomfortable journey, as a quarter of me wasn't actually on the seat

 

[tornado]

I think Sophias are fine up to about 1.5 hrs with no discomfort.

After sitting on one for 4.5 hrs (Penzance - Reading) it was definitely uncomfortable as time progressed, but once the journey was over I had no back pain, so its not terrible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Sophias are fine up to about 1.5 hrs with no discomfort.

After sitting on one for 4.5 hrs (Penzance - Reading) it was definitely uncomfortable as time progressed, but once the journey was over I had no back pain, so its not terrible.

That's why I think they would be fine fitted to the 700s. Most journeys are well under an hour, and the existing seats in those are not fit for anything. (I don't mind ironing boards, it's just the width issue).

 

[fgwrich]

Ah, that's interesting. Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways is a big Transcal fan. It was they who recushioned the 1st Class seats on GWR's HSTs.

They did indeed. They also supply the Night Riviera seated coach seats and I believe produced the bench type seats in the 222 fleet? I’m not surprised Mr Walmsley is a fan though - Transcal seems to have a good innovative relationship with Porterbrook, having trialed 3 of its new seat designs, including the Aerolite, in one of its 319 / 769s at Long Marston.

Yes, slightly different variant of the Fainsa MD.

Of course, you still have the stupidity of Hitachi’s decision making with the TPE fleet - the CAF and Siemens products using seats with leather headrests (in the CAF fleet case, the same seats) but just cloth / Moquette in the Hitachi products only, unless you paid more for it as Hitachi classes the very same seat as a new product that required their own set of additional testing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, you still have the stupidity of Hitachi’s decision making with the TPE fleet - the CAF and Siemens products using seats with leather headrests (in the CAF fleet case, the same seats) but just cloth / Moquette in the Hitachi products only, unless you paid more for it as Hitachi classes the very same seat as a new product that required their own set of additional testing.

The fake-leather headrest does make a huge difference to the "classiness" of the feel of the TPE fleet compared with the solid blue, certainly. It also means the bit of the seat that gets dirtiest is easiest to clean, meaning replacement of covers will not be needed as soon. It makes a lot of sense even if it costs a little more.

 

[Halish Railway]

The fake-leather headrest does make a huge difference to the "classiness" of the feel of the TPE fleet compared with the solid blue, certainly. It also means the bit of the seat that gets dirtiest is easiest to clean, meaning replacement of covers will not be needed as soon. It makes a lot of sense even if it costs a little more.

Am I the only one that prefers the TPE Fainsa Sophia’s without the leather headrest? I personally think that they’re more comfortable as they’re softer and look better, although I appreciate that I’ll be in the minority with that opinion.

I think that the leather headrests work on the Grammar E3000s that the 185s have and if we’re looking outside of TPE they also work on the Grammar IC3000s that GWR’s HSTs have.

Basically the Nova’s should have had better seats fitted is what I’m trying to say .

 

[greyman42]

* The issue being is that the busy times are commuter times on those units, and most commuters are men, and two average men won't fit side by side on those very narrow seats without armrests without one of them sticking out into the aisle - so taking up the same amount of width as wider seats in which they can properly fit. Sophias would be ideal for this purpose.

This is where IC70 seats were ideal because the fixed armrest stopped people encroaching onto your seat.

 

[Mikey C]

This is where IC70 seats were ideal because the fixed armrest stopped people encroaching onto your seat.

Not really, as the issue with 700s isn't people unnecessarily sprawling into another seat, bur rather that the seat is too narrow in the first place

 

[Goldfish62]

This is where IC70 seats were ideal because the fixed armrest stopped people encroaching onto your seat.

The fixed armrests were a very poor design feature which I think was only recognised when it was too late.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I tried to post in the main Azuma thread but it seems to be closed for further replies. I travelled a short distance between Doncaster and York today on an LNER Azuma and I must say the seating is appalling. It's uncomfortable, pitched wrong and too thin! I can feel the frame of the seat and I can also feel what the person behind me is doing on their flip down tray! I can feel every movement. If I am uncomfortable on such a short journey, it must be awful to travel between London and Inverness. I don't think these seats offer the comfort required of long distance stock.

Has anyone else tried these seats? What do you think of the comfort offered?

 

[JonathanH]

Has anyone else tried these seats? What do you think of the comfort offered?

Yes, plenty of people. They have been in service for some time now.

Some people like them. Some people don't. Some are indifferent. It is unusual to please everyone.

Some previous discussions:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/80x-seating-fainsa-vs-what-lumo-avanti-are-using.223943/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ssb-seat-comfort-targets.186691/#post-4117546
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...p-a-success-or-not.205193/page-8#post-4621407

 

[NoOnesFool]

Yes, plenty of people. They have been in service for some time now.

Some people like them. Some people don't. Some are indifferent. It is unusual to please everyone.

Some previous discussions:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/80x-seating-fainsa-vs-what-lumo-avanti-are-using.223943/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ssb-seat-comfort-targets.186691/#post-4117546
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...p-a-success-or-not.205193/page-8#post-4621407

Thank you for the links. It seems I am alone in my thoughts on this. Just to prove I'm not anti modern seats, I find the Voyager, Meridian and Grammer seating very comfortable.

 

[Mikey C]

Thank you for the links. It seems I am alone in my thoughts on this. Just to prove I'm not anti modern seats, I find the Voyager, Meridian and Grammer seating very comfortable.

You're not, there have been vast numbers of complaints on this site about the 80* seats...

 

[Starmill]

It is unusual to please everyone.

I've never come across anyone who didn't like the fabric moquette covered First Class GNER mark 4 seats from new, and the seats in the as delivered class 350/4 and similarly in the as refurbished class 444 are rarely complained about. Keep in mind too that the layout is as important as the seat specification. There are a few other examples. I don't think it's sensible to suggest that this is a zero sum game. Equally I wouldn't go so far as suggesting that it could go all the way to 100%.

 

[TPO]

Yeah they are bad IMO. In the Western, we had the Azumas (in class 800 guise) earlier than the ECML.

I mourn the days when I could catch a (GWR) HST to London, sometimes on the train with a restaurant car, the proper breakfast was a real treat, that's what train travel should be, comfortable and civilised.

The cl800 on GWR are basically a commuter train to serve the Thames Valley from Didcot to London, the rest of us living further out don't count so we get stuck with the horrid ironing board seats and paltry catering offer.

These days if I need to go to London, I am better off driving to Reading and picking up a train there, that yields more comfort and a wider range of options for getting into London. Or driving to one of the Metropolitan Line stations just off the M40 and riding into central London on an s-class train.

TPO

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I travelled the same section on a Grimsby to York journey, on the Azuma that terminates in York, after a Class 185 to Doncaster.
I like the Azuma trains, never noticed the seats as any more comfy or uncomfy than the 185, but I do remember the old Intercity 91s (or was it 92s?) and they had seats that felt luxurious after a trip on a 153 to Newark Northgate.

 

[Huntergreed]

I don’t think anyone would argue that the Azuma seats are particularly comfortable. The standard ones have a real lack of padding and, for any journey of a reasonable length, I find them extremely uncomfortable.

First class isn’t much better. The padding isn’t great, and I often struggle to get the leather headrest to feel comfortable, an very disappointing downgrade on the extremely comfortable first class seating on the MK III’s and IV’s

 

[NoMorePacers]

I've done Doncaster - Kings Cross on them a few times. The seats are firmly "meh" - not massively comfortable but not the worst seats ever either.

For what it's worth I prefer the Mk4s comfort-wise however I don't go out of my way to book myself onto them (I just take whatever service is cheaper/more convenient for my desires).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This has been done to death. The Fainsa Sophia seating is somewhat unpopular, though I quite like it, and LNER’s padded version feels considerably softer to me than other 80x fitted with it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This has been done to death. The Fainsa Sophia seating is somewhat unpopular, though I quite like it, and LNER’s padded version feels considerably softer to me than other 80x fitted with it.

It's exactly the same bar the covers, though it does seem moquette vs flat cloth does make a difference.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's exactly the same bar the covers, though it does seem moquette vs flat cloth does make a difference.

Definitely does. The difference is accentuated by GWR's flat cloth being particularly rough in feel. Compare it, for example, with Chiltern flat cloth.