A Cambridge tube coach, is there a case for it?

[NorthKent1989]

We have the Oxford tube, which even after though you have fast Paddington-Oxford GWR trains exists alongside it and passenger loadings are always busy, it’s like a ordinary trunk bus route/suburban semi fast rail line

Is there a case for a similar type of coach service for Cambridge? I know Cambridge has better train links to London than Oxford does and is much faster, but would a Cambridge tube coach work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While they're in many ways similar places, Cambridge is a fair bit less touristy so there may be less of a market?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a case for a similar type of coach service for Cambridge?

National Express has run services from Cambridge to London in the past, but unlike Oxford, the coaches don't have the same geographical advantages relative to the railway from Cambridge as they have from Oxford.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

@JonathanH has nailed it.

Historically, the rail line has been less competitive in terms of time/cost than coach to Oxford. Rail improvements have closed that gap somewhat and, in part, that prompted Oxford Bus pull out of a reduced coach market. The coach does have significant advantage in serving parts of Oxford to the SE and also places along the M40. Basically, you can have a coach and it's an hour longer or so (off peak) vs the train but you get the saving.

For Cambridge, the differential on time is two hours. The train is under an hour for the direct ones. For the stoppers, the rail line tends to follow the M11 too. I remember in the mid 1990s that National Express introduced their Shuttle concept to the 011 London to Cambridge service. It ran hourly through the day and was operated by Cambus with Mk2 Expressliners.

 

[JonathanH]

One thing which might also be noted about Cambridge is that it sustains coaches to Heathrow, even if not London, and is relatively competitive.

Getting west of Stratford into London from the M11 just puts pay to any practicality of running a competitive coach service to central London.

On the Oxford side, the A40 is a good enough access to get to places people are happy to consider 'London'. Stratford isn't really one of those places

 

[MikeWM]

I'm surprised, on looking at NatEx's site, that there don't appear to be *any* coaches direct between Cambridge and London anymore, all requiring a change at Stansted or Luton. At least it appears that way, but the timetable 'functionality' isn't exactly easy to use so I may be wrong. Certainly there used to be a fairly frequent (hourly?) daytime service, maybe 8-10 years ago I occasionally used it when there was engineering work blocking Cambridge-London.

So I do find it interesting that the Oxford Tube chooses to run all-night, with a service every hour. Conversely the NatEx service from Cambridge (taking ages and involving changing at Stansted or Luton...) stops at 1935, with just two overnight coaches (at 0135 (changing at Stansted) and 0230 (changing at Luton)) which are clearly catering for the airport market rather than explicitly the London market.

Why is there more overnight demand from/to Oxford than Cambridge? Or is there also demand from Cambridge that is no longer filled?

(Admittedly I've largely lost interest in following what services NatEx run since I moved to Ely, as they don't bother to serve here at all, at least not anymore).

 

[ac6000cw]

One thing which might also be noted about Cambridge is that it sustains coaches to Heathrow, even if not London, and is relatively competitive.

I think that's partly because it's a 'no change' journey if you have luggage (which rail isn't, although Thameslink plus Elizabeth line now makes it a single-change journey), they go via either Stansted or Luton hence serving multiple airports and picking up some inter-airport traffic, and depart Cambridge regularly from 01:45 to 19:50 so cater for very early morning to late evening flights. It's a different market and economics to simple London-Cambridge coach trips.

 

[Parebunks]

I'm surprised, on looking at NatEx's site, that there don't appear to be *any* coaches direct between Cambridge and London anymore, all requiring a change at Stansted or Luton. At least it appears that way, but the timetable 'functionality' isn't exactly easy to use so I may be wrong. Certainly there used to be a fairly frequent (hourly?) daytime service, maybe 8-10 years ago I occasionally used it when there was engineering work blocking Cambridge-London.

So I do find it interesting that the Oxford Tube chooses to run all-night, with a service every hour. Conversely the NatEx service from Cambridge (taking ages and involving changing at Stansted or Luton...) stops at 1935, with just two overnight coaches (at 0135 (changing at Stansted) and 0230 (changing at Luton)) which are clearly catering for the airport market rather than explicitly the London market.

Why is there more overnight demand from/to Oxford than Cambridge? Or is there also demand from Cambridge that is no longer filled?

(Admittedly I've largely lost interest in following what services NatEx run since I moved to Ely, as they don't bother to serve here at all, at least not anymore).

The only direct Cambridge-London coach is Flixbus with 3-4 a day on the 006, which never seem all that busy - NatEx do indeed only run to the airports, which adds about £10 onto what the London price would be without a change (NX to airports is always more expensive), so makes this route even less attractive.
Regarding the overnight Oxford Tube, it is normally very quiet, and my personal suspicion is that it isn't there so much as to actually provide a service as for Stagecoach to be able to say that the service exists - i.e. it is a selling point for the Tube if people think they can get back any time, even if they don't actually do it normally. Certainly I've been on very late night journeys with only 1 or 2 other people, the 2-5 am journeys can't be turning any kind of profit.

 

[goldisgood]

Regarding the overnight Oxford Tube, it is normally very quiet, and my personal suspicion is that it isn't there so much as to actually provide a service as for Stagecoach to be able to say that the service exists - i.e. it is a selling point for the Tube if people think they can get back any time, even if they don't actually do it normally. Certainly I've been on very late night journeys with only 1 or 2 other people, the 2-5 am journeys can't be turning any kind of profit.

It was a bit surprising when they upped it to hourly recently - but I've used the journey around 3am before the increases at various times and it was always relatively well used. Not enough to warrant a doubled overnight service mind, but the weekends might justify it either way?

As others have briefly mentioned, Oxford's geography and demographics are a lot of why the coach works: having the rail station in the west with the bulk of the population and both universities towards the east gives a pretty large market for the coach which would otherwise be doubling back on itself. Especially taking congestion into account, by the time you get to Headington the time difference between coach and train is minimal, and frequency of the coach always wins (especially in the evenings - even from West Oxford we'll often take the train down and coach back). The London end of the route is far more useful too, getting into Marble Arch and the tourist areas relatively quickly - I doubt a route from Cambridge would be able to tap into the leisure markets as effectively.

 

[Magdalia]

The London end of the route is far more useful too, getting into Marble Arch and the tourist areas relatively quickly - I doubt a route from Cambridge would be able to tap into the leisure markets as effectively.

This is one of the key factors. The Oxford Tube coaches have the Western Avenue and the Westway all the way in to Marylebone, there is no equivalent coming in from Cambridge. The M11 route gets to Bow then has to fight its way up the Mile End Road, the A1(M) route similarly has to fight its way up the Finchley Road from near to Golders Green.

Another important factor is the history of the rail service from Cambridge, especially the switch from Liverpool Street to Kings Cross as the premier route in the early 1990s. The 2 trains per hour non-stop service to/from Kings Cross dates from 1994. Furthermore it had some Oxford Tube style branding: the service is still often referred to as the Cambridge Cruiser even though that name has not been used officially for a long time now. The railway has never done anything similar for Oxford.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

This is one of the key factors. The Oxford Tube coaches have the Western Avenue and the Westway all the way in to Marylebone, there is no equivalent coming in from Cambridge. The M11 route gets to Bow then has to fight its way up the Mile End Road, the A1(M) route similarly has to fight its way up the Finchley Road from near to Golders Green.

Another important factor is the history of the rail service from Cambridge, especially the switch from Liverpool Street to Kings Cross as the premier route in the early 1990s. The 2 trains per hour non-stop service to/from Kings Cross dates from 1994. Furthermore it had some Oxford Tube style branding: the service is still often referred to as the Cambridge Cruiser even though that name has not been used officially for a long time now. The railway has never done anything similar for Oxford.

I saw an old Eastern Region timetable on Railway World recently which showed non-stop services from Cambridge to Kings Cross even in the 50s

 

[telstarbox]

Does Cambridge also have more inbound commuting from places like Royston and Ely which help to sustain the high level of service?

 

[MikeWM]

The only direct Cambridge-London coach is Flixbus with 3-4 a day on the 006

I didn't even know that existed... Of course if it had paper timetables available in libraries etc. I may well have come across it, but as it is, I hadn't.

Regarding the overnight Oxford Tube, it is normally very quiet, and my personal suspicion is that it isn't there so much as to actually provide a service as for Stagecoach to be able to say that the service exists - i.e. it is a selling point for the Tube if people think they can get back any time, even if they don't actually do it normally. Certainly I've been on very late night journeys with only 1 or 2 other people, the 2-5 am journeys can't be turning any kind of profit.

That makes sense, yes.

--

This is one of the key factors. The Oxford Tube coaches have the Western Avenue and the Westway all the way in to Marylebone, there is no equivalent coming in from Cambridge. The M11 route gets to Bow then has to fight its way up the Mile End Road, the A1(M) route similarly has to fight its way up the Finchley Road from near to Golders Green.

Having done those once or twice, I then tended to go for the Stratford option, avoiding the Mile End Road etc. Which worked fine, but I can see why ppl may be less keen to do that.

--

Does Cambridge also have more inbound commuting from places like Royston and Ely which help to sustain the high level of service?

Certainly from Ely, yes. There's very little employment in Ely, and there's a *lot* in Cambridge. (Which is why there ought to be a market for a decent bus service, given the location of the railway stations at both ends being considerably away from much of the population and employment areas).

 

[bspahh]

I didn't even know that existed... Of course if it had paper timetables available in libraries etc. I may well have come across it, but as it is, I hadn't.

There have been a couple of stories in the Cambridge News on the Flixbus routes from Cambridge:

"I took the £28 bus from Cambridge to Amsterdam and it was like getting a taxi"

In summer Flixbus launched a new service connecting Cambridge to the Dutch capital - CambridgeshireLive Content Editor Tom Burnett decided to check it out

www.cambridge-news.co.uk

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/i-took-35-coach-cambridge-28880327

If you are looking for how to get somewhere, www.rome2rio.com is good for finding odd routes like this.

 

[30907]

I saw an old Eastern Region timetable on Railway World recently which showed non-stop services from Cambridge to Kings Cross even in the 50s

I think you've misread it. The only non-stop was The Fenman to and from Liverpool St (Up just before 9am, Down at 4.30ish). 1958 times - Table 6 for LST, 12 for KGX:
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=c37af6ca-47cd-49b3-8db0-b08756a86bef

 

[higthomas]

I've often thought about this as an idea.
Cambridge doesn't have quite the same advantages as Oxford in that the station isn't as far from most of the city, and the M11 doesn't get so central.

But, a route like parkers piece-mitchams corner-grange road-madingly road park and ride-m11(-stanstead some of all of the time)-stratford would I think be fairly popular.

There's massive Cambridge-London market, the M11 is fairly fast, with a potential massively popular stop at Stansted half way, and Stratford is an easy to reach and very attractive/convenient terminus.

Added to that, the west side of the city is hard to reach from the station, and even the city centre is hard with luggage and they include a lot of the colleges. Also the park and ride would add custom.

(And especially a late night service calling at Stansted would have some attraction. If places like Chelmsford can have virtually all night buses to Stansted, I'm sure Cambridge can!)


But maybe I'm biased because I live on that side of the city and get annoyed with schlepping over to the station, and not being able to get home after 00:33, and having used to live in Oxford miss the tube...

 

[Busaholic]

Hasn't it got much to do with the notion that a coach to London from virtually anywhere has to terminate in the Victoria/Belgravia area? Victoria Coach Station's presence obviously has much to with this, but also the extensive Green Line network from the Home Counties that started in the 1930s and finally fizzled out about forty years ago, and Eccleston Bridge opposite the coach station was the centre for this, with stops on public roads. Even BOAC coaches to Heathrow started from there, and the BEA ones operated from Gloucester Road terminal opposite the District Line station of the same name.

Green Line made more than one attempt to operate some routes out to the North from a Kings Cross Coach Station, which had at least three iterations, one of which was much closer to Euston! This was before the idea of linking routes to avoid needing a physical terminus in Central London had gained traction. Some routes from the southern counties terminated at Baker Street, and ones from the E and NE at Aldgate Bus and Coach Station, still in use to an extent today.

As others have said, there have been attempts to make Stratford acceptable as a terminal point for coaches but the idea doesn't appear to have caught on. I wonder if the Silvertown Tunnel might make Stratford more attractive in the future from the SE?

 

[Magdalia]

I saw an old Eastern Region timetable on Railway World recently which showed non-stop services from Cambridge to Kings Cross even in the 50s

In the 1950s the fastest Kings Cross-Cambridge trains were the Cambridge Buffet Expresses. All of these called at Welwyn Garden City, Hitchin and Letchworth Garden City, with some also calling at Royston.

Does Cambridge also have more inbound commuting from places like Royston and Ely which help to sustain the high level of service?

The following now call at Royston for commuter traffic, in addition to the Thameslink and stopping trains:

0639/0739 Kings Cross-Kings Lynn
0712/0812 Kings Cross-Ely

1648 Ely-Kings Cross
1710/1810 Kings Lynn-Kings Cross

But, a route like parkers piece-mitchams corner-grange road-madingly road park and ride-m11(-stanstead some of all of the time)-stratford would I think be fairly popular.

The usual calling point other than Parkside is Trumpington Park and Ride. My neighbours who use the airport coaches go there.

the west side of the city is hard to reach from the station

The Whippet Universal services look after this.

If places like Chelmsford can have virtually all night buses to Stansted, I'm sure Cambridge can

Maybe the Chelmsford night buses are for airport workers not travellers?

the BEA ones operated from Gloucester Road terminal opposite the District Line station of the same name.

The official BEA name was West London Air Terminal. BEA passengers could check in there. The West London Air Terminal was on Cromwell Road which went directly onto Hammersmith Flyover and the Great West Road to Heathrow.

 

[padbus]

It may be worth noting that the Oxford Tube calls in at Hillingdon Tube station on its way into and out of London thus allowing connections to the Tube network without having to travel into central London. I have used the Oxford Tube and the former Oxford Bus Company equivalent to travel between London and Hillingdon to experience riding on an Astromega and an Elite-i and noticed that normal people were also using them within London.

 

[RELL6L]

The Oxford Tube is blessed with natural geographical advantages. The city centre of Oxford is a hike to the station and the populous areas of East Oxford and Headington are a real slog to the station and this is where loads of students live. The M40 - A40 route into London is better than most and it goes to where people want to go. Hillingdon is a good connection point with the tube. Lewknor has developed from rather ad-hoc to a well-used Park and Ride location both for Oxford and London. The train, although improved, only goes to Paddington, you can change there for the city or the West End but again this can be slow.

I'm less familiar with Cambridge, again the station isn't that central but the road into London isn't as good and its a long way over to the West End - although by train you have to change too. I don't see that Cambridge would have the same advantages for a coach.

 

[700720]

While there may not be a huge case for a 'Cambridge Tube', I think there is a case for a more frequent, 24/7 service from Cambridge to the London Airports (especially Heathrow and Stansted). The current service provided by National Express has an uneven, infrequent timetable and does not run 24/7.

I am proposing something like the Oxford Bus Company's 'the airline' service which runs up to every 20 mins 24/7/365 from Oxford City Centre to Heathrow & Gatwick, also picking up inter-airport customers. The service also makes a stop at Oxford's Thornhill Park & Ride and other stops within the city, similar to how a Cambridge service could stop at Trumpington Park & Ride.

 

[JonathanH]

I am proposing something like the Oxford Bus Company's 'the airline' service which runs up to every 20 mins 24/7/365 from Oxford City Centre to Heathrow & Gatwick, also picking up inter-airport customers.

Again, Cambridge isn't in the best location for one coach serving Heathrow and Gatwick, given Cambridge to Gatwick via Heathrow is a long way round. Oxford has an advantage that Heathrow is on the way to Gatwick.

Some years ago, the 727 ran from Norwich to Brighton via Cambridge, Stansted, Heathrow and Gatwick but it was deemed not worthwhile for the Southern bit to continue, and it now ends at Heathrow.

 

[ac6000cw]

Again, Cambridge isn't in the best location for one coach serving Heathrow and Gatwick, given Cambridge to Gatwick via Heathrow is a long way round. Oxford has an advantage that Heathrow is on the way to Gatwick.

Some years ago, the 727 ran from Norwich to Brighton via Cambridge, Stansted, Heathrow and Gatwick but it was deemed not worthwhile for the Southern bit to continue, and it now ends at Heathrow.

Also of course Thameslink running Cambridge - Brighton every 30 minutes (hourly late evening), with easy interchange at Farringdon to Heathrow, from around 0500 to 2200, plus the GA Norwich - Stansted services has rather changed the competitive landscape in terms of airport services from Cambridge...

For people living in Cambridge and the surrounding area, the airport of choice is usually Stansted if there are suitable flights. Certainly for leisure trips by air, we often start by looking at where we can fly to from Stansted rather than choosing a specific destination first. Why traipse all the way to Heathrow or Gatwick if you don't need to?

 

[BVW]

Cambridge Coach Services ran a successful service to Heathrow and Gatwick during the 1990s, with departures on the hour between 0200 and 2000 alternately calling at Luton or Stansted airports.

 

[MikeWM]

Cambridge Coach Services ran a successful service to Heathrow and Gatwick during the 1990s, with departures on the hour between 0200 and 2000 alternately calling at Luton or Stansted airports.

Plus an Oxford service, can't remember how frequent but I seem to recall a reasonable number of coaches a day. I remember getting one at around 0300 one rather mad night back when I was a student, getting to Oxford around 0600 and then wondering what there actually was to do in Oxford at that time in the morning!

Unfortunately the X5 won that battle, and then while the world was preoccupied with covid Stagecoach kindly decided to quietly bring an end to the X5 too, leaving Oxford and Cambridge with no direct link at all.

 

[Teds]

I used the National Express service between Cambridge and London pre-Covid when it was about 2 hourly - although it had been better. All the services that I used were fairly quiet. For an early morning arrival in London when the train fare would be very expensive, it was a really good option. Drive to Trumpington, park for free, and pick up the coach to Stratford. It helped that I had a NX staff pass at the time as well.

Arrivals and departures from the airport incur a charge which is presumeably why Flixbus and Megabus don't go there. There used to be a London-Norwich Megabus service which has now ceased, I think. It never offered a stop at the airport. Completely off-topic, that Megabus service was cut back to terminate at Stratford before its final demise but it did not save it.

It looks as if the current Flixbus service from Cambridge to London is provided by run-on run-off journeys for Whippet coaches to/from their depot. The route does not have to pay its way. That accounts for odd service which varies each day of the week. It used be (and may still be) that there was one day of the week with services only in one direction. Once they arrive in London, the Whippet vehicles travel to other destinations before working their way back to Cambridge a day or two later.

The link to Gatwick was almost certainly affected by Thameslink. Compared with a half-hourly rail service, a 2 hourly coach service was not going to compete. Added to which, it was expensive to operate because the traffic congestion on the M25 made it very unreliable.

 

[markymark2000]

I think that the route which could work best is just simply having National Express or Airport Bus Express extend their Stratford - Stansted service into Cambridge. This would make a service which is more similar to Greenline 757. While not 'Oxford Tube' every 10 minutes, I think that by having the mix of passenger journeys, that being Cambridge to Stansted, Stansted to Stratford and Cambridge to Stratford, this may be viable. Terminating in Stratford, Stratford is a destination in it's own right but you do also have tube connections into Central London, I think that running into Central London direct could ruin the reliability and make the journey time too long to be competitive.

It looks as if the current Flixbus service from Cambridge to London is provided by run-on run-off journeys for Whippet coaches to/from their depot. The route does not have to pay its way. That accounts for odd service which varies each day of the week. It used be (and may still be) that there was one day of the week with services only in one direction. Once they arrive in London, the Whippet vehicles travel to other destinations before working their way back to Cambridge a day or two later.

There are now services in both directions every day. From 29th April, it will be 3 trips per day from Cambridge to London (5 on Thursdays) and returning London - Cambridge it will be 3 trips on Mon, 5 Tues, 4 Wed, 3 Thurs, 2 Fri, 3 Sat, 3 Sun.

Arrivals and departures from the airport incur a charge which is presumeably why Flixbus and Megabus don't go there.

Does the airport do concessions for coaches or a standard departure fee? I only ask because Luton does concessions and this stops most coach operators from serving the airport, they have to bid and provide a minimum level of service and stuff so for Luton, the awards only went to Arriva (for Greenline) and NatEx. If Megabus or Flixbus wanted to serve Luton, they wouldn't be able to get access. If Stansted is the same, perhaps Flix/Mega can't serve the Airport because of the concession/agreements in place.

 

[RT4038]

I think that the route which could work best is just simply having National Express or Airport Bus Express extend their Stratford - Stansted service into Cambridge. This would make a service which is more similar to Greenline 757. While not 'Oxford Tube' every 10 minutes, I think that by having the mix of passenger journeys, that being Cambridge to Stansted, Stansted to Stratford and Cambridge to Stratford, this may be viable. Terminating in Stratford, Stratford is a destination in it's own right but you do also have tube connections into Central London, I think that running into Central London direct could ruin the reliability and make the journey time too long to be competitive.


There are now services in both directions every day. From 29th April, it will be 3 trips per day from Cambridge to London (5 on Thursdays) and returning London - Cambridge it will be 3 trips on Mon, 5 Tues, 4 Wed, 3 Thurs, 2 Fri, 3 Sat, 3 Sun.


Does the airport do concessions for coaches or a standard departure fee? I only ask because Luton does concessions and this stops most coach operators from serving the airport, they have to bid and provide a minimum level of service and stuff so for Luton, the awards only went to Arriva (for Greenline) and NatEx. If Megabus or Flixbus wanted to serve Luton, they wouldn't be able to get access. If Stansted is the same, perhaps Flix/Mega can't serve the Airport because of the concession/agreements in place.

Stansted is concession.

 

[markymark2000]

Stansted is concession.

Which explains why Flixbus and Megabus don't/didn't serve the Airport.