A line "inked-in" by very few, one would reckon - Limpley Stoke - Camerton - Hallatrow

[Calthrop]

An item which I recently came upon by chance -- pretty trivial, maybe; but to me, intriguing. It involves the Great Western's "Titfield Thunderbolt" line: Limpley Stoke -- Camerton -- Hallatrow, in Somerset. Although I had been aware that the route's longer segment, east of Camerton, had come on the scene late in the day; and that the entire line had lost its passenger service early: I had not realised until recent chance discovery, quite how late -- and as well as early, passenger-served for how very little time -- these respective things had been.

The route's full history, as recently discovered by me -- as follows. The section from Hallatrow on the Bristol -- Frome line, to Camerton -- some 4 to 5 miles -- was opened for all traffic in 1882 (I had known that it had come into being first). The 7 or 8 miles eastward from Camerton, to Limpley Stoke on the Bath -- Westbury route, following the defunct Somerset Coal Canal, were opened in 1908 (Camerton -- Dunkerton Pit, for freight only); and on eastward to Limpley Stoke, including opening for passenger throughout, in 1910. I had known that this part of the route had opened late in the railway age, but had failed hitherto to realise that it was this late. New to me also, was -- largely blameable, it appears, on World War I -- just for how very little time in all, a passenger service had run over the late-opened section (it would appear that from the outset, the passenger trains were disappointingly lightly used). Passenger service -- Limpley Stoke to Hallatrow throughout -- was discontinued with effect from 22 / 3 / 1915: one figures, a wartime economy measure, very early in the war. Freight continued throughout. Passenger was experimentally resumed in 1923 -- way after the return of peace -- but withdrawn again w.e.f. 21 / 9 / 1925. At that time, Camerton -- Hallatrow was closed for all traffic; freight (largely, coal mined at Dunkerton) thenceforth went in and out via Limpley Stoke. These freight workings carried on for another generation, ceasing in 1951. Filming for The Titfield Thunderbolt was carried out at the eastern end of the line -- Monkton Combe station being "Titfield" -- in 1952, while track was still down.

It can be reckoned that if the film-makers had not happened to choose this line for a film which became -- especially for railfans -- a classic; the line would have been one of the most obscure and overlooked -- and when notice taken of it, regarded as a failure and a farce (even if also hankered after by enthusiasts) -- of any branch lines belonging from way back, to Britain's big railway companies. With the ephemerally little time in which it was passenger-served east of Camerton (a bit over half a dozen years, including a long "intermission"); one would take it that it would have been a very few and lucky railway enthusiasts -- if any at all -- who experienced those regular passenger workings.

 

[Gloster]

I think it was also used for one of the versions of Arnold Ridley’s The Ghost Train.

 

[Calthrop]

Ah ! interesting -- a parallel maybe, with the LSW / Southern's Basingstoke to Alton branch -- fairly useless and not very long-lived as a public railway; but attaining in death, as it were: a degree of not just one-off, film-stardom.

 

[Gloster]

Apparently they also filmed parts of Kate Plus Ten on the line, as well as on the Bath-Westbury line. In it there is a rare image of a GWR ROD.

 

[Calthrop]

I'm the reverse of a film buff; had encountered somewhere and at some time, the title Kate Plus Ten -- beyond that, a total mental blank: needed to Google. I see that it's a -- seemingly more "cosy" than "dark" -- crime drama made in 1938; from a thriller by Edgar Wallace. So, the branch out of Limpley Stoke used here for filming, well before its abandonment; not that presumably one daily return goods, at the very most, would present any kind of troublesome obstacle !

 

[yorksrob]

An item which I recently came upon by chance -- pretty trivial, maybe; but to me, intriguing. It involves the Great Western's "Titfield Thunderbolt" line: Limpley Stoke -- Camerton -- Hallatrow, in Somerset. Although I had been aware that the route's longer segment, east of Camerton, had come on the scene late in the day; and that the entire line had lost its passenger service early: I had not realised until recent chance discovery, quite how late -- and as well as early, passenger-served for how very little time -- these respective things had been.

The route's full history, as recently discovered by me -- as follows. The section from Hallatrow on the Bristol -- Frome line, to Camerton -- some 4 to 5 miles -- was opened for all traffic in 1882 (I had known that it had come into being first). The 7 or 8 miles eastward from Camerton, to Limpley Stoke on the Bath -- Westbury route, following the defunct Somerset Coal Canal, were opened in 1908 (Camerton -- Dunkerton Pit, for freight only); and on eastward to Limpley Stoke, including opening for passenger throughout, in 1910. I had known that this part of the route had opened late in the railway age, but had failed hitherto to realise that it was this late. New to me also, was -- largely blameable, it appears, on World War I -- just for how very little time in all, a passenger service had run over the late-opened section (it would appear that from the outset, the passenger trains were disappointingly lightly used). Passenger service -- Limpley Stoke to Hallatrow throughout -- was discontinued with effect from 22 / 3 / 1915: one figures, a wartime economy measure, very early in the war. Freight continued throughout. Passenger was experimentally resumed in 1923 -- way after the return of peace -- but withdrawn again w.e.f. 21 / 9 / 1925. At that time, Camerton -- Hallatrow was closed for all traffic; freight (largely, coal mined at Dunkerton) thenceforth went in and out via Limpley Stoke. These freight workings carried on for another generation, ceasing in 1951. Filming for The Titfield Thunderbolt was carried out at the eastern end of the line -- Monkton Combe station being "Titfield" -- in 1952, while track was still down.

It can be reckoned that if the film-makers had not happened to choose this line for a film which became -- especially for railfans -- a classic; the line would have been one of the most obscure and overlooked -- and when notice taken of it, regarded as a failure and a farce (even if also hankered after by enthusiasts) -- of any branch lines belonging from way back, to Britain's big railway companies. With the ephemerally little time in which it was passenger-served east of Camerton (a bit over half a dozen years, including a long "intermission"); one would take it that it would have been a very few and lucky railway enthusiasts -- if any at all -- who experienced those regular passenger workings.

Literally and metaphorically overshadowed by the great Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway !

 

[Calthrop]

The relevant Wiki entry indeed includes a photograph showing the S & D Midford viaduct; and framed by an arch thereof, the L.S. -- Hallatrow branch's in comparison, unimpressive not-very-high-looking viaduct (former viaduct crosses over latter, at another point): as the caption says, the branch-line structure is "dwarfed" by the S & D one.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The route's full history, as recently discovered by me -- as follows. The section from Hallatrow on the Bristol -- Frome line, to Camerton -- some 4 to 5 miles -- was opened for all traffic in 1882 (I had known that it had come into being first). The 7 or 8 miles eastward from Camerton, to Limpley Stoke on the Bath -- Westbury route, following the defunct Somerset Coal Canal, were opened in 1908 (Camerton -- Dunkerton Pit, for freight only); and on eastward to Limpley Stoke, including opening for passenger throughout, in 1910. I had known that this part of the route had opened late in the railway age, but had failed hitherto to realise that it was this late. New to me also, was -- largely blameable, it appears, on World War I -- just for how very little time in all, a passenger service had run over the late-opened section (it would appear that from the outset, the passenger trains were disappointingly lightly used). Passenger service -- Limpley Stoke to Hallatrow throughout -- was discontinued with effect from 22 / 3 / 1915: one figures, a wartime economy measure, very early in the war. Freight continued throughout. Passenger was experimentally resumed in 1923 -- way after the return of peace -- but withdrawn again w.e.f. 21 / 9 / 1925. At that time, Camerton -- Hallatrow was closed for all traffic; freight (largely, coal mined at Dunkerton) thenceforth went in and out via Limpley Stoke. These freight workings carried on for another generation, ceasing in 1951. Filming for The Titfield Thunderbolt was carried out at the eastern end of the line -- Monkton Combe station being "Titfield" -- in 1952, while track was still down.

The dates you mention are in Passengers No More (Daniels & Dench), which says the temporary reopening was on 8.7.23.
The Atlas of the GWR 1947 I've got has the legend "closed 1932" for the Hallatrow-Camerton section.

 

[Taunton]

The relevant Wiki entry indeed includes a photograph showing the S & D Midford viaduct; and framed by an arch thereof, the L.S. -- Hallatrow branch's in comparison, unimpressive not-very-high-looking viaduct (former viaduct crosses over latter, at another point): as the caption says, the branch-line structure is "dwarfed" by the S & D one.

Opening shot of the Titfield Thunderbolt is right here. Down Pines Express, West Country-hauled, crossing at speed the featured 14xx centrepiece of the film passing beneath. Must have taken a bit of co-ordination.

I'm familiar with the country. Although notably close to both Bristol and Bath (in fact, from the east end of the line you could probably walk into Bath in an hour or so), the two cities very rapidly run out into the countryside of the north side of the Mendips. The alignment of the line didn't help, it faced the wrong way at both Limpley Stoke and Hallatrow for any service into either city. The line is broadly parallel to the S&D Midford to Radstock section, just a mile or two north of it, and served some rather ramshackle old collieries which were already on their last legs when the line was built, and closed soon after.

Although the west end of the line is nearer to Bristol, for various reasons the dominant traditional bus operator was the Bath company, who, although owned by the Bristol company so you wouldn't think it would make a difference, focused their routes on Bath, straight over the hill. The other local centre is Radstock. All of these were completely unserved by the line. It was even a nuisance to operate, not only nowhere near any loco shed (strangely the GWR never had a shed at Bath), it was actually operated from Westbury shed, which is why Westbury men were the crew in the film, and on the day were given speaking parts by the director, because they seemed just naturally good at it, and thus appear in the credits.

 

[Gloster]

By chance I came across a marvellous photo of the Camerton-Westbury goods coming into Limpley Stoke in 1937. Pannier tank, LMS van, LNE van, seven-plank open from a Bristol company (possibly the Wagon & Carriage), four loaded five-planks (probably Camerton Collieries), GWR van and brake van.

The original line from Hallatrow to Camerton had a steep climb from Camerton to Hallatrow. Once the line closed to passengers it was logical to work traffic out via Limpley Stoke and avoid having to haul the loaded wagons up the bank.

 

[Calthrop]

The dates you mention are in Passengers No More (Daniels & Dench), which says the temporary reopening was on 8.7.23.
The Atlas of the GWR 1947 I've got has the legend "closed 1932" for the Hallatrow -- Camerton section.

My bolding above: in the past I'd read somewhere -- don't recall where -- that Hallatrow -- Camerton was closed completely at the 21 / 9 / 1925 time of passenger withdrawal; the relevant Wiki entry confirms this, and adds that the track was lifted in 1930. !932 perhaps the official / notional abandonment date?

I'm familiar with the country. Although notably close to both Bristol and Bath (in fact, from the east end of the line you could probably walk into Bath in an hour or so), the two cities very rapidly run out into the countryside of the north side of the Mendips. The alignment of the line didn't help, it faced the wrong way at both Limpley Stoke and Hallatrow for any service into either city.

Point raised here re Hallatrow, of a certain interest to me. Tony Dewick's Complete Atlas of Railway Station Names -- which also attempts to show all lines in meticulous detail -- features at our branch's western end: as well as the line's turning southward to join the relatively "greater" line at Hallatrow station; a corresponding "east-to-north" curve creating a triangular junction and allowing non-stop running from the branch, to Clutton and ultimately Bristol. I've seen no indication of this curve, in any other source available to me. I've often found Dewick's atlas invaluable; but would concede that it has "pro's" and "cons": respectively, he tries very hard to include "all the railways there have ever been in Britain"; but his definitely active imagination, does tend to come up with material unknown to anyone else ! Any possibility seen, of this east-to-north curve actually having existed? -- or would it seem very much, a thing belonging in "Dewick World" only?

The line is broadly parallel to the S&D Midford to Radstock section, just a mile or two north of it, and served some rather ramshackle old collieries which were already on their last legs when the line was built, and closed soon after.

Although the west end of the line is nearer to Bristol, for various reasons the dominant traditional bus operator was the Bath company, who, although owned by the Bristol company so you wouldn't think it would make a difference, focused their routes on Bath, straight over the hill. The other local centre is Radstock. All of these were completely unserved by the line. It was even a nuisance to operate, not only nowhere near any loco shed (strangely the GWR never had a shed at Bath), it was actually operated from Westbury shed, which is why Westbury men were the crew in the film, and on the day were given speaking parts by the director, because they seemed just naturally good at it, and thus appear in the credits.

One has to feel overall, that this was a line born under an unlucky star (and sadly late, when road motor transport was shortly to take off in a big way).

 

[181]

Any possibility seen, of this east-to-north curve actually having existed? -- or would it seem very much, a thing belonging in "Dewick World" only?

There's no sign of it in any of the various old maps that you can see here (at least not in any of those that I've looked at), or in the modern aerial view that you can see if you move the blue dot under 'Change transparency of overlay' to the left. (If you can't see that, or the choice of maps, you may need to close a box saying 'Explore Georeferenced Maps -- Help' and/or click 'Choose map layers').

I walked almost past there back in 1996, but not quite, and in any case I wasn't aware of the possibly non-existent section of railway.

As some may know, that valley is also famous for an earlier episode of transport history (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combe_Hay_Locks and in particular the 'caisson locks' section), and for its role in the develoment of the science of geology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_(geologist)#Life's_work).

Back closer to the title of the thread, it's interesting to wonder which railway lines have now passed out of living memory in the sense of having no-one left alive who remembers travelling on them. In this case there will presumably be a fair number of people left who remember seeing the line in operation, but few if any who got to travel on it.

Including deceased enthusiasts as well as still-living ones, a Google search for 'T.R. Perkins' brings up this thread from a few years ago where @Calthrop speculates in post #3 about whether the intrepid Mr. Perkins ever covered the line currently under discussion.

 

[Taunton]

A north curve at Hallatrow would have been quite a dig through the hillside near Marsh Lane, which would have left some evidence.

Notably, at that point, the substantial south curve bridge across Marsh Lane, nicely done in local stone, is still there, well maintained. It must be quite a nuisance for the ramshackle industrial units and rural scrapyard just to the north. It appears not to have had a train over it for nearly 100 years now :

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[Calthrop]

Post deleted

 

[Gloster]

I can find absolutely no evidence of there ever having been a east to north curve at Hallatrow, not even during construction. The line was a real twig that only really existed to carry the modest output of a couple of collieries and neither that nor the modest passenger traffic would justify direct trains towards Bristol.

The first edition of Passengers No More (Daniels and Dench, Ian Allan, 1964) lists the line as closed to passengers 22-03-1915 to 09-07-1923 and finally closed 21-09-1925. Goods traffic was withdrawn Hallatrow-Camerton at the same time as the passenger traffic in 1925, but remained between Camerton and Limpley Stoke until 15-02-1951.

 

[Calthrop]

There's no sign of it in any of the various old maps that you can see here (at least not in any of those that I've looked at), or in the modern aerial view that you can see if you move the blue dot under 'Change transparency of overlay' to the left. (If you can't see that, or the choice of maps, you may need to close a box saying 'Explore Georeferenced Maps -- Help' and/or click 'Choose map layers').

I walked almost past there back in 1996, but not quite, and in any case I wasn't aware of the possibly non-existent section of railway.

As some may know, that valley is also famous for an earlier episode of transport history (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combe_Hay_Locks and in particular the 'caisson locks' section), and for its role in the develoment of the science of geology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_(geologist)#Life's_work).

Back closer to the title of the thread, it's interesting to wonder which railway lines have now passed out of living memory in the sense of having no-one left alive who remembers travelling on them. In this case there will presumably be a fair number of people left who remember seeing the line in operation, but few if any who got to travel on it.

It's to be reckoned that with our line's last regular passenger services having run in September 1925: anyone with a chance of having any coherent memory of travelling by them would need to have done so in early childhood, and to be now a centenarian at least ! "Lines now passed out of living memory" as you say: a thing on which I sometimes muse -- re greatly-loved lines which ceased to be early-ish in the twentieth century; it's getting so that people who knew those lines first-hand, will now be in extreme old age, and be few in number and getting ever fewer. Anyone old enough for coherent memories from childhood, of the Lynton & Barnstaple or Leek & Manifold Valley at the very end of those lines' careers, would need to be in their early nineties at "youngest".

Including deceased enthusiasts as well as still-living ones, a Google search for 'T.R. Perkins' brings up this thread from a few years ago where @Calthrop speculates in post #3 about whether the intrepid Mr. Perkins ever covered the line currently under discussion.

I had fun with that thread which I started about "T.R.P." -- a figure who fascinates me. Perhaps a strong indication of the desirability of getting out more; but I do find it interesting to speculate on various lines, with short lives which fell within the period of his "mission": whether he managed to get to them, or whether they "were closed from out under him"; and whether he had the idea / possibility of engaging in brake-van trips on lines (Limpley Stoke -- Camerton being a possible case in point) which lost passenger service when yet un-bagged by him, but remained open for freight. On reflection: he would have had a good chance of covering by passenger train, Hallatrow -- Camerton, opened 1882. As for L.S. -- Camerton, though: chances for covering by regular passenger service, only spring 1910 -- early 1915, and summer 1923 -- autumn 1925. A pretty narrow "window" for him...

A north curve at Hallatrow would have been quite a dig through the hillside near Marsh Lane, which would have left some evidence.

Notably, at that point, the substantial south curve bridge across Marsh Lane, nicely done in local stone, is still there, well maintained. It must be quite a nuisance for the ramshackle industrial units and rural scrapyard just to the north. It appears not to have had a train over it for nearly 100 years now

Re the above, and @181's (@Gloster likewise) thoughts on the matter in their posts: it looks extremely probable that this putative curve is a figment of Mr. Dewick's imagination. As noted in my post upthread: his atlas is a most industrious work, but he does have a tendency to include in it now and again, lines and stations for whose having existed, there seems to be no evidence elsewhere -- he also sometimes mis-locates stations which did exist.

 

[Gloster]

The Railway Comes to Hallatrow, 1873 in highlittletonhistory.org.uk gives 08-02-1932 as the closure of Hallatrow-Camerton and the rails being lifted to 500 yards from Camerton by 1933.

 

[181]

It's to be reckoned that with our line's last regular passenger services having run in September 1925: anyone with a chance of having any coherent memory of travelling by them would need to have done so in early childhood, and to be now a centenarian at least !

Passenger-train travel on this line, and any travel on the western section, are very likely now beyond living memory, but with regard to the longer-lasting eastern section it's not impossible that among the employees of the railway (or indeed the film company) who travelled on it in the course of their duties, or any people who might have got to travel (with or without official approval) in brake vans or on footplates, there could be some who were young enough to still be around now.

(If the line had lasted a few years longer it might have been visited by enthusiasts' specials, but I don't know whether these were common in the immediate post-war years).

 

[Gloster]

The most likely members of the public to have travelled on it would have been pupils of Monkton Combe School. Most schools had a railway club and I can see an enthusiastic master arranging such a trip just before the line closed.

 

[Taunton]

There were actually a good few enthusiasts' specials in those post-war years. It was of course the Ian Allan trainspotting heyday, who along with the "established" traditional societies, RCTS, LCGB and SLS, did a good number of these, often all together jointly, with their own headboards on the loco. Very commonly they departed major cities at about 1.30pm on Saturday afternoons, as these were times when office staff (including railway office staff) still worked on Saturday mornings. So it wouldn't have suited a special from London, but it would one from Bristol. They were commonly advertised in the societies' newsletters, and the Ian Allan magazine. In the 1950s the Branch Line Society came along, who, as the name implies, specialised in this sort of trip.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes 1970s, 1980s, 1990s it was mainly all about the loco haulages not particularly the track. RCTS though did still do a lot of rare track bashing.

 

[Bevan Price]

By repute, the first trip regarded as an enthusiasts railtour took place in 1938, and was a RCTS tour from London Kings Cross to Peterborough (North) & return, using GNR 4-2-2 No.1

 

[geoffk]

Although the west end of the line is nearer to Bristol, for various reasons the dominant traditional bus operator was the Bath company, who, although owned by the Bristol company so you wouldn't think it would make a difference, focused their routes on Bath, straight over the hill. The other local centre is Radstock. All of these were completely unserved by the line.

Remember that Bath Tramways Motor Company was independent of Bristol Tramways until 1936, when it was taken over but run as a subsidiary company.

I used to visit the S&D Midford station from time to time and wondered if there was ever a photograph of a train on both lines at the same time, even if a posed one.

 

[Taunton]

I used to visit the S&D Midford station from time to time and wondered if there was ever a photograph of a train on both lines at the same time, even if a posed one.

If you are very quick with screen freeze you can just get that moment, here, where the S&D train is passing over as the Titfield 14xx emerges underneath

... and while you are in Youtube, this re-enactment of the film done very well by the North Norfolk Railway in 2012

 

[geoffk]

If you are very quick with screen freeze you can just get that moment, here, where the S&D train is passing over as the Titfield 14xx emerges underneath

... and while you are in Youtube, this re-enactment of the film done very well by the North Norfolk Railway in 2012

Oh yes, I've seen the film and remember it now. Thanks.

 

[Gloster]

A small point: Bath did have a GWR loco shed out at the goods yard, which opened around 1880 and closed in February 1961. In December 1947 it was a sub shed of Bath Road and had a single Pannier Tank. It was under a water tank, which was supported on separate iron columns.

 

[Graham H]

Films on BBC2 later today if anyones interested

 

[The exile]

By chance I came across a marvellous photo of the Camerton-Westbury goods coming into Limpley Stoke in 1937. Pannier tank, LMS van, LNE van, seven-plank open from a Bristol company (possibly the Wagon & Carriage), four loaded five-planks (probably Camerton Collieries), GWR van and brake van.

The original line from Hallatrow to Camerton had a steep climb from Camerton to Hallatrow. Once the line closed to passengers it was logical to work traffic out via Limpley Stoke and avoid having to haul the loaded wagons up the bank.

That steep incline was, I believe, one of the reasons for building the line in the first place.

 

[Calthrop]

The most likely members of the public to have travelled on it would have been pupils of Monkton Combe School. Most schools had a railway club and I can see an enthusiastic master arranging such a trip just before the line closed.

(My bolding): not my school -- miserable place; wretched extremely-minor public school: there, being a railway enthusiast or "train-spotter" was the uttermost depth of un-cool.

It certainly appears, from material in this thread, that there are two different narratives concerning total closure of Hallatrow -- Camerton: 1925 together with passenger withdrawal; and 1932 -- approximately same amount of data pro / con, re each.

My first learning of the existence of this line was in the mid / late 1950s: via an article in the monthly magazine Boys' Own Paper (ceased publication 1967). Article's title, Exploring a Ghost Railway: few details now remembered, but it told of the author's walking the line (as at the time, abandoned but track still down) from Limpley Stoke to Camerton -- illustrated by one photo (black-and-white) of Camerton station with its abandoned goods sidings. Article mentioned use of line for filming The Titfield Thunderbolt -- I think this was my first learning of the film's existence: our family were very infrequent filmgoers, and for a long time anti-television stalwarts.

By chance I came across a marvellous photo of the Camerton-Westbury goods coming into Limpley Stoke in 1937. Pannier tank, LMS van, LNE van, seven-plank open from a Bristol company (possibly the Wagon & Carriage), four loaded five-planks (probably Camerton Collieries), GWR van and brake van.

Belated response: not a bad payload "in a small way of business" ! Assuming it typical for most days: not surprising that this operation lasted for another fourteen years -- with help, probably, from World War II circumstances.