A little bit of ticketing

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evil_hippo

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Me and my friends are popping of to Manchester this half term. I did some research and foudn the following fares:

Penrith-Lancaster SDR £13.30
Lancaster-Preston SDR £6.15
Preston-Manchester CDR £7.90

=£27.35

Penrith-Manchester SVR

=£33

But we're used to this sort of madness.

My question is, why are there seemingly no CDRs down the west coast main line to Lancaster and to Preston?
 
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87015

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evil_hippo said:
My question is, why are there seemingly no CDRs down the west coast main line to Lancaster and to Preston?
Virgin fares...
There is (or at least used to be) a Lancaster-Manchester CDR, being a North West Trains (or whatever they are called this week) fare.
Not sure where its valid or its ching but there is some kind of lakes day ranger valid around there as well.
 

Met Driver

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87015 said:
Not sure where its valid or its ching but there is some kind of lakes day ranger valid around there as well.
IIRC it only covers Windermere-Lancaster, Lancaster-Heysham and Lancaster-Sellafield, so not much use South of Lancaster.
 

metrocammel

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Seth said:
IIRC it only covers Windermere-Lancaster, Lancaster-Heysham and Lancaster-Sellafield, so not much use South of Lancaster.
that wouldn't put some people off!!!

Ticketing can be crazy..... that why I prefer rovers / rangers... one could say i swear by them..... If your people were travelling a lot during the week I would suggest a 3 in 7 NW Rover... though I daresay they are not cranks... and wont be doing that much travelling....?
 

yorkie

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evil_hippo said:
My question is, why are there seemingly no CDRs down the west coast main line to Lancaster and to Preston?
CDRs don't exist for journeys that are considered too long for day returns. Given that many people make such journeys at weekends, when the entire WCML is either a very slow branch line or is simply replaced by buses, and given the uncomfortable nature of the Pongos, Virgin have decided no-one wants to make such day trips so have withdrawn the tickets. ;)

No, not really... the actual reason is that CDRs are not protected so mean TOCs can abolish them to force us to get more expensive SVRs, and then they insult our intelligence by pretending it's not a price increase. Central Trains are probably the worst at this.

Many years ago (I'm told) CDRs were very widespread and you could get a CDR covering the entire WCML! Apparently longer distance CDRs were replaced with SSRs (SuperSavers), but the SuperSavers were later abolished at the insistence of the Government at the time of privatisation, as part of the deals for many of the new franchises. SSRs only exist on very few routes these days, and are increased in price and have ridiculous restrictions :(

In contrast to CT, Virgin, etc, GNER have never (to my knowledge) removed any CDRs and have gone further by actually introducing new CDRs! Just 3 CDRs get you from London to Newcastle.
 

TicketMan

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yorkie said:
SSRs only exist on very few routes these days, and are increased in price and have ridiculous restrictions :(
.
Like what? Restrictions are almost the same as a saver - only differnce is that you can't travel on a friday and certain public holidays. No need to book in advance, no quota controlled compulsary reservation - buy on the day. On routes that have them (ATW is probably the biggest provider) they are extremely popular tickets, and suit the majority of leisure travellers 6 days a week.
 

Table 52

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Supersaver, a ticket with awful restrictions. Like GNER's saver restriction of not valid into London before 1115?

Saver, a more expensive off peak ticket valid typically getting into London after 10. Like GNER's Business Saver (1020).


Is it me or have GNER brought back the Supersaver system, just with different names and therefore higher prices?
 

evil_hippo

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87015 said:
There is (or at least used to be) a Lancaster-Manchester CDR
Thank you very much for your advice. I've saved a further £2.35, to be £25 exactly, by only splitting at Lancaster. I just assumed there was no CDR for Lancaster to Manchester.

Table 52 said:
Is it me or have GNER brought back the Supersaver system, just with different names and therefore higher prices?
yes. they have.
 

yorkie

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Table 52 said:
Is it me or have GNER brought back the Supersaver system, just with different names and therefore higher prices?
Sort of, Yes!

The Government instructed them to abolish SSRs to ensure passengers paid more money for their journeys.

The Saver got even more restrictive, and has ended up being about as restrictive as the SuperSaver (except valid on Fridays etc), so this caused them to introduce the Business Saver, which is about as restrictive as the Saver used to be.

But this gets around price increases because they can say the Saver has not increased much! So that's okay then..
[EDIT]
evil_hippo said:
I just assumed there was no CDR for Lancaster to Manchester.
There can be a lack of CDRs for short journeys, yet a nearby longer journey (that may even be valid for the shorter journey you actually want to take) might have a CDR! You really do have to do a lot of research to get the best price, and an understanding of the RG (Routeing Guide) helps a lot.

I can think of many journeys where it is cheaper to get a ticket beyond your destination.
 

Guinness

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yorkie said:
I can think of many journeys where it is cheaper to get a ticket beyond your destination.
I can think of something similar on MML on Peak Trains. For example, if you wanted to travel from Nottingham to St. Pancras return with a walk on fare you would have to buy a Standard Open. With me so far? If you wanted to travel on the 0826 HST from Nottingham you can buy a Saver from Alfreton or Langley Mill and travel half the price which is £2.50 more than a Saver from Nottingham. MML allow this (It's in the timetable) because MML only serve them twice a day. :)
 

yorkie

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Nick W said:
What for? to push people onto roads so they can justify widening?
Quite possibly, the A1 has had been widened recently (and the M1 was extended into ECML territory. :(
 

Table 52

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And the M1 is now being widened (much to my disgust, damn 40mph speed limit)

I think we all know the government makes more money from roads than it does from public transport.

Sod issues like the environment. Ah well, when we're all flooded, we can look back and say, nuts. We should have kept the SuperSaver.
 

Table 52

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I seem to hear of a report of this nature every 3 months or so Always the same points

- Too many 'confusing' ticket types
- Price of walk up fares too high
- Too expensive to travel in the peak

When are they going to do something about it? Or are we to get another report in 3 month time again?

Problem is that the current thought is

'Peak times are busy, people need to be charged more to discourage them'

What we need is

'Off peak times aren't busy, lets encourage it with lower walk up fares'
'Peak trains are busy, lets run more services with more seats'
 

Tom B

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Price elasticity of demand - peak time rail travel is highly inelastic, i.e. if the price goes up than people will still use it and pay that higher price, as it is often the only realistic option availible. Given that people will still stuff themselves into packed trains, there's no motivation for the companies to put longer trains on.
 

Table 52

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Cockfosters said:
Price elasticity of demand - peak time rail travel is highly inelastic, i.e. if the price goes up than people will still use it and pay that higher price, as it is often the only realistic option availible. Given that people will still stuff themselves into packed trains, there's no motivation for the companies to put longer trains on.
If we're talking economics:

This country while fairly free market, does have a government who should be using it's powers to force train operators to run additional longer and cheaper trains at times of significent demand. The purpose of a government is to correct instances where supply and demand are socially wrong and this is one of those cases.
 
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