A new Liverpool to Manchester Timetable

[Dspatula]

A new Liverpool to Manchester Timetable or: how I made a timetable guarantied to upset almost everyone.

Potential fix for Ordsall Chord?

What would be the effect of closing one or both of Oxford road and Deansgate? Three heavy rail stations including Piccadilly seems a tad generous in such a short distance. More like tram network.

www.railforums.co.uk

Inspired by this thread I got to thinking about about changes to services if you just stopped using the Ordall chord for regular services.
So here's post Stalybridge electrification base hourly timetable for the Chat Moss, where I've rerouted two of the worse offenders for importing and exporting delays from the Castlefield corridor.
The Saltburn to Manchester Airport is rerouted to form a Saltburn to Liverpool Lime Street. Requires at least one extra unit to run.
The Liverpool to Manchester Airport stopped is now a Liverpool to Stalybridge stopper. 4 units for one train an hour 7 for two. I had to sacrifice the peak time Wigan via Chat Moss trains at both ends for the half-hourly service, but there would probably be some routed there at the start and end of the day for stock movement purposes.

Yeah so I've cut direct service to Manchester Airport for a "few" people...
Corresponding CLC Warrington timetable to come at some point.

Services from Liverpool stops marked in blue, from Chester in green and junctions with potential conflicts in red.
Anyway probably missed some obvious conflicting movement somewhere and I've not factored in freight runs currently, oh well enjoy;



Generalised timings for services at Ordsall Lane junction

 

[Tayway]

Honestly, this makes perfect sense from a simplification point of view. The current direct link from Liverpool to Manchester Airport is pretty useless given it stops everywhere, and I think it would likely be too tight to fit in an extra semi-fast (like the one that operated before 2018).

Having both TPE North East services start from Liverpool also makes sense – these could operate fast Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds with 802s, leaving Hull and Scarborough services to operate semi-fast Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds with 185s. You could even have a half-hourly Hull service from Manchester, with York and Scarborough served by a half-hourly Calder Valley service from Preston and Blackpool.

Given the Glasgow path is hourly, it would probably make sense to have an infill service at least as far as Lancaster in the hours the TPE doesn't run.

 

[SuperNova]

Honestly, this makes perfect sense from a simplification point of view. The current direct link from Liverpool to Manchester Airport is pretty useless given it stops everywhere, and I think it would likely be too tight to fit in an extra semi-fast (like the one that operated before 2018).

Having both TPE North East services start from Liverpool also makes sense – these could operate fast Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds with 802s, leaving Hull and Scarborough services to operate semi-fast Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds with 185s. You could even have a half-hourly Hull service from Manchester, with York and Scarborough served by a half-hourly Calder Valley service from Preston and Blackpool.

Given the Glasgow path is hourly, it would probably make sense to have an infill service at least as far as Lancaster in the hours the TPE doesn't run.

Pathing on the ECML makes that a non starter. Amongst other things

 

[8A Rail]

At least you done the sensible option of two stopper trains per hour on the L&M line as well as routing them via Manchester Victoria as they use to be. Yes the NE TPEx's should be routed that way too, just like it was in the past, many many years ago.

 

[Dspatula]

Honestly, this makes perfect sense from a simplification point of view. The current direct link from Liverpool to Manchester Airport is pretty useless given it stops everywhere, and I think it would likely be too tight to fit in an extra semi-fast (like the one that operated before 2018).

Having both TPE North East services start from Liverpool also makes sense – these could operate fast Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds with 802s, leaving Hull and Scarborough services to operate semi-fast Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds with 185s. You could even have a half-hourly Hull service from Manchester, with York and Scarborough served by a half-hourly Calder Valley service from Preston and Blackpool.

Given the Glasgow path is hourly, it would probably make sense to have an infill service at least as far as Lancaster in the hours the TPE doesn't run.

Don't read too much into the Glasgow it's more just to illustrate the path of the one service that currently runs.
For the reason SuperNova states the Newcastle and Saltburn are on their current timings from Stalybridge onwards.
Same reason I couldn't have a nice 15 minute timings for the stoppers toward Lime Street, the timing for the Blackpool North from Wigan means it doesn't work anything that needs a change to the west coast mainline timetable is a non-starter.

At least you done the sensible option of two stopper trains per hour on the L&M line as well as routing them via Manchester Victoria as they use to be. Yes the NE TPEx's should be routed that way too, just like it was in the past, many many years ago.

I do like nice half hour service pairs. I'm not confident they'd be train crew or stock to do full half hour all day, but it is at least going to the right Manchester station for route knowledge.

I did a more standard timetable to go with the other one.

 

[Bevan Price]

I like most of the suggestion, but thinking of where people live, and accessibility by public transport , I would alter the TP stopping pattern. I would reduce the stops at Lea Green & Newton Le Willows to 1 tph, and replace these by 1 tph stops at St. Helens Junction and Earlestown.

For St. Helens Junction, that would restore the fast service to Manchester, lost when the "Airport Expresses" were withdrawn several years ago, whilst Earlestown is much more convenient than Newton Le Willows for many residents of that area. It might also help St. Helens Junction to recover some of the passenger numbers lost in the last few years (excluding Covid-affected years) - just look at the station usage history figures...

 

[8A Rail]

I like most of the suggestion, but thinking of where people live, and accessibility by public transport , I would alter the TP stopping pattern. I would reduce the stops at Lea Green & Newton Le Willows to 1 tph, and replace these by 1 tph stops at St. Helens Junction and Earlestown.

For St. Helens Junction, that would restore the fast service to Manchester, lost when the "Airport Expresses" were withdrawn several years ago, whilst Earlestown is much more convenient than Newton Le Willows for many residents of that area. It might also help St. Helens Junction to recover some of the passenger numbers lost in the last few years (excluding Covid-affected years) - just look at the station usage history figures...

Even the overall suggestion was ever considered, with the amount of money spent along with improving the facilities at both Lea Green and Newton le Willows in recent times, I doubt it would be entertained with reducing the TPEx trains to one per hour at both those stations even if a 30 minute TPEx frequency became 'regular'. I think you maybe know that yourself.

 

[Bevan Price]

Even the overall suggestion was ever considered, with the amount of money spent along with improving the facilities at both Lea Green and Newton le Willows in recent times, I doubt it would be entertained with reducing the TPEx trains to one per hour at both those stations even if a 30 minute TPEx frequency became 'regular'. I think you maybe know that yourself.

I agree it is unlikely, but I still think it is regrettable that a daft idea from St. Helens Council to make Lea Green more important than St. Helens Junction was adopted, particularly after money had just been spent enlarging the car park at St. Helens Junction.
Even the name was "political", as the station is actually in Marshalls Cross, not Lea Green.

Yes, there has been development around Lea Green station, but only a small proportion has been housing - much has been "distribution centres", which contribute little to passenger traffic (and nil to local rail freight.). And I think that a good proportion of the former car park was often used by staff at the nearby school, rather than exclusively by rail passengers.

Also, for part of the past few years, TPE services were calling at either Newton Le Willows or Lea Green, giving them 1 tph each, except in early morning or evening. And even before COVID, TPE were unreliable - if a train due to stop at Lea Green was cancelled, they never considered adding an additional stop to their next westbound train (with a Newton Le Willows stop); as I found out all too often.

 

[8A Rail]

I agree it is unlikely, but I still think it is regrettable that a daft idea from St. Helens Council to make Lea Green more important than St. Helens Junction was adopted, particularly after money had just been spent enlarging the car park at St. Helens Junction.
Even the name was "political", as the station is actually in Marshalls Cross, not Lea Green.

Yes, there has been development around Lea Green station, but only a small proportion has been housing - much has been "distribution centres", which contribute little to passenger traffic (and nil to local rail freight.). And I think that a good proportion of the former car park was often used by staff at the nearby school, rather than exclusively by rail passengers.

Also, for part of the past few years, TPE services were calling at either Newton Le Willows or Lea Green, giving them 1 tph each, except in early morning or evening. And even before COVID, TPE were unreliable - if a train due to stop at Lea Green was cancelled, they never considered adding an additional stop to their next westbound train (with a Newton Le Willows stop); as I found out all too often.

I don't disagree with your thoughts in your sentence. I must admit enlarging St Helens Junction car park was a bit of a strange one!

I think the Lea Green car park which was expanded was mostly used by commuters along with some long distance travellers too. During the week it was always full. The school across the road has its own car park which the teachers use, so no reason to park there. As you may realise and noted recently, considerable money has been spent on Lea Green Station, including a large two storey car park. new station building and facilities, along with extending the platforms too.

Not sure why TPEx would arrange an additional stop westbound because of a cancelation or otherwise, as you have the hourly Northern stopper to take up the slack! You should know TPEx by now, very much like other TOC's - only interested in making up time rather than assisting passengers! Remember it is what is best for them in operating trains rather than transporting passengers! Welcome to today's railway!

 

[RHolmes]

I still think it is regrettable that a daft idea from St. Helens Council to make Lea Green more important than St. Helens Junction was adopted, particularly after money had just been spent enlarging the car park at St. Helens Junction.
Even the name was "political", as the station is actually in Marshalls Cross, not Lea Green.

Yes, there has been development around Lea Green station, but only a small proportion has been housing - much has been "distribution centres", which contribute little to passenger traffic (and nil to local rail freight.). And I think that a good proportion of the former car park was often used by staff at the nearby school, rather than exclusively by rail passengers.

Lea Green was chosen as it’s the station with greater importance. It has (and had) a more frequent bus service than Junction, is closer to the St Helens Linkway (for the park and ride) as well as Sherdley Park which is often used for lessors attractions such as circuses and festivals.

Thanks to the Linkway, It’s easier to drive to from Widnes, the town of St Helens, Prescot, Rainhill etc for passengers travelling long distance, where as Junction is out of the way surrounded by housing to the west but farmland and country roads of Bold to the south and east.

Lea Green was also fully accessible unlike Junction which has an incredibly steep access ramp on the Liverpool bound platform and no tactile paving.

I don’t know if you’re local or have travelled to the area lately but there’s a huge estate that has just been build down the road at Sherdley Rd not far from the recent developments on the actual ‘Lea Green’

 

[8A Rail]

Lea Green was chosen as it’s the station with greater importance. It has (and had) a more frequent bus service than Junction, is closer to the St Helens Linkway (for the park and ride) as well as Sherdley Park which is often used for lessors attractions such as circuses and festivals.

Thanks to the Linkway, It’s easier to drive to from Widnes, the town of St Helens, Prescot, Rainhill etc for passengers travelling long distance, where as Junction is out of the way surrounded by housing to the west but farmland and country roads of Bold to the south and east.

Lea Green was also fully accessible unlike Junction which has an incredibly steep access ramp on the Liverpool bound platform and no tactile paving.

I don’t know if you’re local or have travelled to the area lately but there’s a huge estate that has just been build down the road at Sherdley Rd not far from the recent developments on the actual ‘Lea Green’

I would say it is easier to driving to Lea Green then St Helens Junction that is for sure. However, people in Widnes would use their own station first with suitable onward connection further down the line. People living in Rainhill, Prescot etc would only use Lea Green if travelling eastwards and further than Manchester as otherwise, would use their own local stations.

As for the steep ramp for St Helens Junction, their are two entrances to the Liverpool bound station and as far as access is concerned certainly no worst (if not better) than Lea Green as there are 3/4 zig zag ramps to and from each platform, as well as the 'step' access too as the platforms are in a small cutting. Yes, to the west of the station, there are a number of housing developments including some on the other side of the St Helens Linkway which is why I think Lea Green has been further developed.

 

[RHolmes]

As for the steep ramp for St Helens Junction, their are two entrances to the Liverpool bound station and as far as access is concerned certainly no worst (if not better) than Lea Green as there are 3/4 zig zag ramps to and from each platform, as well as the 'step' access too as the platforms are in a small cutting.

The gradient is the issue, Junction isn’t suitable for most wheelchair users where as Lea green has a much milder gradient that complies with accessibility requirements (Hence the long zig-zag back and forth)

 

[8A Rail]

The gradient is the issue, Junction isn’t suitable for most wheelchair users where as Lea green has a much milder gradient that complies with accessibility requirements (Hence the long zig-zag back and forth)

The west (car park) side of the station at the Junction is the easier access of the two which is no different to the gradients on the zig zag ones at Lea Green Station along with the length of each 'zig zag path too. I would say of the two stations, St Helens Junction is easier BUT I am NOT a wheel chair user so it is really hard to make a fair judgement.