A Streamlined duchess at Manchester London road?

Sherlock

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Dose anyone have an image or know where there is an image of a streamlined duchess at Manchester London road(Piccadilly) or at Manchester exchange
thanks
 
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70014IronDuke

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Were Stanier pacifics cleared in terms of RA to use London Rd, especially back in those days? IIRC, London Rd was quite limited platform lengths too - maybe 10 carriages? Another reason why a Duchess would not normally be diagrammed to run there, as they were normally reserved for heavier trains to Liverpool/Preston/Glasgow.
 

Sherlock

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I read somewhere they couldn’t be turned and had to run reverse back to stoke,(there is an image of it running back to stoke in reverse)apparently they were cleared through stoke.
 
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I have never read a report or seen a picture of a streamlined "Duchess" at London Road.

I think Stanier pacifics only got there on running in turns after overhaul at Crewe Works, usually on locals from and to Crewe! As far as I have read, they were too big for the Stoke route, but Britannias were allowed that way. At some point in the last two years, I read a report of a Princess Royal being seen at Macclesfield, perhaps because (if that was the case) someone forgot that they should not have used that route.

Pacifics were too big for the London Road turntable, so they were turned via the junctions south of Stockport, Cheadle Village Junction (Liverpool line) and Davenport Junction, (Buxton line). The line between those two junctions, known as "the Khyber" had two lines of rails, but only the southern one was signalled (bi-directionally); the northern one was of siding status, and had connections serving local industry, but I think if it was clear, through movements could be made along it.

Someone did suggest that it would have been quicker to have turned big LMR engines by crossing them to the Eastern side and using the Gorton / Hyde Road / Fairfield triangle. That never happened because the bureaucracies of taking them into the Eastern Region (on the original 1948 boundaries) would have been too great.

I have never seen a report of a Stanier pacific at Manchester Exchange. Are the preserved ones allowed through Victoria now?
 

Gloster

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Pacifics were too big for the London Road turntable, so they were turned via the junctions south of Stockport, Cheadle Village Junction (Liverpool line) and Davenport Junction, (Buxton line). The line between those two junctions, known as "the Khyber" had two lines of rails, but only the southern one was signalled (bi-directionally); the northern one was of siding status, and had connections serving local industry, but I think if it was clear, through movements could be made along it.
I don’t know the area well, but there is nothing in Liverpool & Manchester Railway Atlas (Brown, Crecy, 2021) to indicate that only one line was used. In the article Davenport Junction and ‘the Khyber Pass’ on the davenportstation.org.uk site, there is a mention of only one line being in use, but it suggests that this was only in the line’s very last years. January 1965 is given as the closure date in the Atlas.
 

Sherlock

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I have never read a report or seen a picture of a streamlined "Duchess" at London Road.

I think Stanier pacifics only got there on running in turns after overhaul at Crewe Works, usually on locals from and to Crewe! As far as I have read, they were too big for the Stoke route, but Britannias were allowed that way. At some point in the last two years, I read a report of a Princess Royal being seen at Macclesfield, perhaps because (if that was the case) someone forgot that they should not have used that route.

Pacifics were too big for the London Road turntable, so they were turned via the junctions south of Stockport, Cheadle Village Junction (Liverpool line) and Davenport Junction, (Buxton line). The line between those two junctions, known as "the Khyber" had two lines of rails, but only the southern one was signalled (bi-directionally); the northern one was of siding status, and had connections serving local industry, but I think if it was clear, through movements could be made along it.

Someone did suggest that it would have been quicker to have turned big LMR engines by crossing them to the Eastern side and using the Gorton / Hyde Road / Fairfield triangle. That never happened because the bureaucracies of taking them into the Eastern Region (on the original 1948 boundaries) would have been too great.

I have never seen a report of a Stanier pacific at Manchester Exchange. Are the preserved ones allowed through Victoria now?
Thank you for your reply. When the duchess’s were named I understood… they were named at the city and city of Salford was named at exchange station(as the end of the station was in Salford), I’m not sure where city of Manchester was named?
 

Gloster

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Thank you for your reply. When the duchess’s were named I understood… they were named at the city and city of Salford was named at exchange station(as the end of the station was in Salford), I’m not sure where city of Manchester was named?
As City of Manchester entered traffic in 1943, it may have had a low-key naming service. They had other things to worry about at the time.
 
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Duchess
Thank you for your reply. When the duchess’s were named I understood… they were named at the city and city of Salford was named at exchange station(as the end of the station was in Salford), I’m not sure where city of Manchester was named?
Duchess's in M/c Exchange.
46257 City of Salford ran Leng from Springs brch to Newton Heath via Parkside passing thro M/c ex and Vic 9tht Sept 1964 the following day conveyed the Railway Queen to M/c Vic and left Leng for Springs brch via parkside (not allowed via tyldesley although diversion of west coast train with Duchess pacifics used this route).
46235 City of Birmingham Departed from M/c Ex with the 12.50 Wigan local via Tyldesley 1963,
46235 worked 03 23 m/c ex Lpool Newspaper train. mid1964
46240 worked into and out M/c Ex 14/5/64 08.10 Hhead-m/c Ex ret 16.30 M/c Ex LLandudno.
46229 worked into M/c Ex Dec 1963 Pcls train Wigan M/c ex via Tyldesley and returned Leng to Patricroft to turn and left Leng via Tyldesley to Springs brch .
46256 arrived into M/c ex 14/04/64 Leng to Patricroft for servicing.
46206 arrived on Patricroft shed having arrived at M/c vic c1962 and in the early hours of the following day worked 01.18 Chester newspaper train from M/c Ex.
 

70014IronDuke

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Duchess

Duchess's in M/c Exchange.
46257 City of Salford ran Leng from Springs brch to Newton Heath via Parkside passing thro M/c ex and Vic 9tht Sept 1964 the following day conveyed the Railway Queen to M/c Vic and left Leng for Springs brch via parkside (not allowed via tyldesley although diversion of west coast train with Duchess pacifics used this route).
46235 City of Birmingham Departed from M/c Ex with the 12.50 Wigan local via Tyldesley 1963,
46235 worked 03 23 m/c ex Lpool Newspaper train. mid1964
46240 worked into and out M/c Ex 14/5/64 08.10 Hhead-m/c Ex ret 16.30 M/c Ex LLandudno.
46229 worked into M/c Ex Dec 1963 Pcls train Wigan M/c ex via Tyldesley and returned Leng to Patricroft to turn and left Leng via Tyldesley to Springs brch .
46256 arrived into M/c ex 14/04/64 Leng to Patricroft for servicing.
46206 arrived on Patricroft shed having arrived at M/c vic c1962 and in the early hours of the following day worked 01.18 Chester newspaper train from M/c Ex.
Interestingly, all the above workings, except perhaps the last one, were after Class 8s were effectively off front-line duties, which, if I had to put a date on it, would have been end of Summer 62 TT around Sept 8.

Yes, I'm sure there were some on Class 1 trains well after that, but that was the date (or v soon afterwards) when, IIRC, all the Princess Royals were put into store and then withdrawn without seeing further use. And there were enough Cl 40s (and 44s) to handle most Class 1 diagrams.
 

billh

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When London Road was being rebuilt , 1959/60, many class 1 trains were diverted to Victoria via Denton and Droylsden. We never saw class8 pacifics on that route. The only pacifics were locally based Brittanias. Most trains had Scots, Patriots and 5XPs, but later,Peaks like D1 and a few EE type 4s. Much more recently Stanier 8s of both types have worked the route, but via Ashton Moss North as the direct line , Denton to Droylsden was closed in 1968.
 

6Gman

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My understanding was that 8Ps were permitted Crewe - London Road, but NOT via Stoke. 7Ps (generally Scots and Britannias in the 1950s) were ok both ways. However 8Ps were never, as far as I am aware, diagrammed into Manchester for fear someone might send one via Stoke.
 

Bevan Price

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Both Duchesses & Princess Royals worked regularly into Manchester London Road in the late 1950s until 1960 on a Euston via Crewe service. I had several rides from Stockport to Manchester on a mid-afternoon service (about 15:30 from Stockport):
46235 (twice), 46225 (2), 46234 (1), 46248 (2), 46205 (3), 46247, and 46220 (my last run before electrification, 30 April 1960). The load was usually 11 coaches.
(And 46220 actually went into Manchester Mayfield, not London Road, with only 9 coaches.)

They were all based at Crewe North (5A) at the time of my runs. Occasionally a Royal Scot deputised, and I had :
46138 (5A), 46122, 46140, 46166 (all Longsight, 9A)
 
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47296lastduff

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I remember seeing the Duchesses from "cross bridges", a field South of Adswood where the LNW line crossed the MR Derby to Manchester Central line, a popular place to spot locos on both routes. I agree with Bevan Price that this would be about 1530.
I also remember the Duchesses heading South, tender first, within the hour. Our vantage point was South of the Khyber Pass triangle, so the move must have been direct to Crewe.
 

Beebman

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I've a copy of a 1973 book 'The LMS Duchesses' by Douglas Doherty and that has a photo (dated 17/4/59) of 46233 at Stockport running light engine in reverse. The caption says it had earlier worked a Euston-Manchester express and it was now heading for Crewe.
 

Taunton

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Interestingly, all the above workings, except perhaps the last one, were after Class 8s were effectively off front-line duties, which, if I had to put a date on it, would have been end of Summer 62 TT around Sept 8.

Yes, I'm sure there were some on Class 1 trains well after that, but that was the date (or v soon afterwards) when, IIRC, all the Princess Royals were put into store and then withdrawn without seeing further use. And there were enough Cl 40s (and 44s) to handle most Class 1 diagrams.
O S Nock wrote in the June 1964 Railway Magazine that a month or two beforehand he had a Duchess from Crewe on a Glasgow train. It was a sudden Class 40 substitute, but the Duchess was fully prepared to take, as scheduled, the following Perth train onward, an even longer assignment than Glasgow. There was indeed some disbelief on here that they were working Class 1 trains so late, until the magazine article was looked up.
 

Beebman

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O S Nock wrote in the June 1964 Railway Magazine that a month or two beforehand he had a Duchess from Crewe on a Glasgow train. It was a sudden Class 40 substitute, but the Duchess was fully prepared to take, as scheduled, the following Perth train onward, an even longer assignment than Glasgow. There was indeed some disbelief on here that they were working Class 1 trains so late, until the magazine article was looked up.

i've dug out another book in my collection, 'LM Pacifics: A Pictorial Tribute' published by Roundhouse Books in 1967 (no named author) and that has a photo of 46250 at Wreay on 22/12/63 substituting for a diesel on the up Royal Scot. There's also a photo dated Aug 1964 taken at Penrith of 46225 departing on a through express from Keswick to Crewe and Manchester with a headcode on the smokebox door of 1K76.
 

Taunton

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Nock's article describes how the Duchess was fully prepared for its Crewe-Perth assignment, properly cleaned, supplied with first class coal, and in perfect mechanical condition. Which was not seemingly what even an expert like him by this time expected. The one not prepared was himself, who had thought (clothing and otherwise) he was going to relax in the seat of a diesel cab. One gets the impression he thoroughly enjoyed it all.
 

Bevan Price

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Class 40 reliability was less than perfect in their early years, and steam substitutions were not uncommon until the end of steam. Given good coal and a willing crew, a Duchess would have little difficulty in out-performing a Class 40.
 
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Kaydee

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In the late 50s an 8P Pacific was rostered for the Friday evening up "Comet" 5 45pm Manchester London Road to Euston, returning on the Saturday 11 20am (or thereabouts) ex-Euston, arriving about 3 30pm. Both ran via Crewe and were heavy trains - the Comet would be extended from the usual 11 coaches to 14 or 15 at Stockport and the 11 20 down included a portion for Workington as far as Crewe. I recollect once seeing this arrive at Crewe with 16 or 17 on! This definitely finished by September 1960 when electrics took over from Crewe to Manchester - the Friday evening Comet may have been steam for a short time after this but the English Electrics Type 4 diesels soon took over. So yes, 8Ps were rare into London Road, and only on the Crewe route. After arrival the 8P ran light engine to Stockport to Davenport, reversed over the "Khyber Pass" to Cheadle Village Junction then back to Longsight. Usually a Crewe North engine or Camden Engine, could be either a Princess Royal or Coronation. However after April 1960 when London Road was mostly closed for rebuilding, the up Comet was diverted to start from Victoria and the down Saturday train ran into Mayfield but both were Type 4 hauled on the occasions I saw them (although the WTT still included a path for the Stockport turning run)
 

Harvester

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On Sunday 9 June 1963 46245 City of London worked a railtour from Kings Cross to Doncaster and back. There have been claims of a very high speed down Stoke Bank when returning, but I have never come across a published log of the run. Can anyone supply more information.
 

47296lastduff

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Ever since the late 1950s, when the weekly 8P was a spotting highlight, I wondered why this one train had the big loco, especially with the inconvenience of turning it.
Now I have the answer at last, thanks to Kaydee.
 

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