A YouGov poll on fare evasion in London

[43066]

I saw someone being physically ejected by SouthEastern's security/revenue guys at Bromley South a couple of weeks ago. Forcefully (and fairly) too. Bloke spat at them.

That’s Bromley South for you, sadly.

Given how affluent the surrounding areas are that station attracts no end of trouble. There was a member of platform staff stabbed there, not so long ago.

As for spitting, how people remain professional in that situation after they’ve been spat at is honestly beyond me. I’m not sure I could, and I have utmost admiration for colleagues who manage to do so.

 

[Tom B]

It is frustrating, travelling into London as I do 4/5 days per week, that I see this happening a couple of times per week. It does make you wonder what the point in paying is when so many blatantly flaunt the rules.

I seem to recall the polis saying something along the lines of, the type of person who is fare evading probably has other more serious things of interest to them against their name. Similarly to how the car stopped for no MoT/tax etc uncovers far more.

However, this is not the fault of LUL staff; much as they should take a harder line, this should be appropriate staff - not the lone working CSA...

 

[Meerkat]

Staff have been emasculated (sorry don’t know the non gender term???). The scrotes know that even if the staff have the confidence to get hands on their employer will tell them off for it, and the staff know they risk getting accused of assault (and you don’t even need to be charged for it to be disruptive and stressful) or in some areas accused of racism which is probably more career limiting and socially harmful than getting done for assault.
And the same applies to other passengers helping out.
Whether it really is more dangerous or not I bet the fear of knives (and the consequent refusal to front up misbehaviour) is massively higher.
A starting point would be the employers pushing to the legal limit, criminal and civil, in going after anyone who attacks their staff (without the staff contribution if the video supports that and the staff are worried about retribution).

 

[ChrisC]

It is frustrating, travelling into London as I do 4/5 days per week, that I see this happening a couple of times per week. It does make you wonder what the point in paying is when so many blatantly flaunt the rules.

I fully understand why you feel like this. I’ve never travelled without a valid ticket and it’s something that I would never consider doing. It does, however, seem very unfair when some people are travelling without a ticket on a regular basis. I also appreciate why staff, for their own safety, are not able to challenge them.

What annoys me more than the fact that I am paying when they don’t is when I witness people who have made a genuine mistake being treated harshly. I know that there are so many who try it on with not paying, but there are people, often as a result of the complicated fares system, who mistakenly purchase the wrong ticket. It seems unfair that an elderly person who by accident has boarded the wrong train with an advance ticket should have to pay for another new ticket at a high price when at least they have already paid for a ticket. Then these thugs are daily pushing through barriers or being violent and abusive and are getting away without paying anything at all.

 

[jon0844]

Whether it really is more dangerous or not I bet the fear of knives (and the consequent refusal to front up misbehaviour) is massively higher.

I've heard of cases where someone has shown a knife, or done a gesture that implies they have a knife, and demanded to be let through - with a threat along the lines of 'don't say anything as I know where you work' which actually makes me think a lot of staff are not even reporting people pushing through (or being let through by opening the gates).

Would you call BTP if you'd been threatened like this?

As such, only the police being in more places would change the mindset and undo years and years of inaction that has got us to where we are today. It's not a recent thing, or something you can even blame on any specific party as we're talking decades. The kids pushing through today are the children of the adults who were pushing through before them.

 

[Gooner18]

I've heard of cases where someone has shown a knife, or done a gesture that implies they have a knife, and demanded to be let through - with a threat along the lines of 'don't say anything as I know where you work' which actually makes me think a lot of staff are not even reporting people pushing through (or being let through by opening the gates).

Would you call BTP if you'd been threatened like this?

As such, only the police being in more places would change the mindset and undo years and years of inaction that has got us to where we are today. It's not a recent thing, or something you can even blame on any specific party as we're talking decades. The kids pushing through today are the children of the adults who were pushing through before them.

The Met were/are currently looking into whether they are going to get involved with fair evasion after one of its officers was suspended and then convicted of common assault for arresting a female who failed to provide evidence she had paid on the bus to a TfL ticket inspector. Fortunately common sense won the day and the decision was over turned. However the damage is now done

 

[Recessio]

I've heard of cases where someone has shown a knife, or done a gesture that implies they have a knife, and demanded to be let through - with a threat along the lines of 'don't say anything as I know where you work' which actually makes me think a lot of staff are not even reporting people pushing through (or being let through by opening the gates).

Would you call BTP if you'd been threatened like this?

As such, only the police being in more places would change the mindset and undo years and years of inaction that has got us to where we are today. It's not a recent thing, or something you can even blame on any specific party as we're talking decades. The kids pushing through today are the children of the adults who were pushing through before them.

I do remember a documentary on the tube about twenty years ago. An ex-army guy, then working on TfL, said he once asked to see someone's ticket and they flashed a handgun at him. He said "as far as I was concerned, that was authority to travel" which I think as a lone CSA is fair enough! But yes it goes to show it's not a new issue of recent years, even if it does seem to have gotten even worse since the pandemic especially.

 

[Florence Rox]

I actually work on the gate line at one of London's busiest underground stations and see first hand very high numbers of fare evasion, especially in the late evening.

Quite often I am on my own for periods up to an hour, yet passengers still expect me to "tackle" fare evaders.

We are told by senior management to let them go and fill out a form, which takes a couple of minutes. There is not always time to do this if you have a queue of people asking for assistance.

My job as a CSA is to assist customers which includes a variety of things from advising on routes, best ticketing options, helping disabled customers, dealing with customers who get stuck in the barriers, lost money in ticket machines etc.

At a busy station, the job is very interesting and rewarding, as long as you remember that a vast majority of customers are very nice to you, and the deliberate fare evaders are in a very small minority.

I am certainly not going to risk getting assaulted over a £2.80 fare.

 

[LLivery]

Can you provide quotes of people who have said this?

Also, was anyone, who actually travels by train, actually wanting staff removed from trains (which is not the same thing as changing the method of operation of the train)? I don't think I've come across anyone who wants a less visible staff presence on the rail network, other than perhaps people who simply don't use public transport.

I don't get what the operation of the train has to do with anything though; I have been on many trains with Guards where no ticket check has occurred (and indeed on some routes Guards are non-commercial and do not check tickets at all, such as SWR), but on other services with an On Board Manager (OBM), ticket examiner (TE) etc, ticket checks can be very regular.

The operation of the train isn't necessarily an indicator of whether tickets will be checked.

And that's before you get into discussing systems such as London Overground, where on-train checks are rare, but revenue is massively up (by a huge factor) these days, and I would be very surprised if fare evasion isn't lower on LO than it used to be back when the trains did have Guards.

I don't think that the method of operation of trains should be brought into this discussion, as it's a separate factor to whether or not there is a visible staff presence.

I don't have a quote of a specific person, but whenever you see a 'vox pop' in the news media during the strikes, it's not difficult to find people welcoming whatever is called 'modernisation', ignoring concerns of safety. And increasingly, 'Sticking it to the unions' has become a ridiculous character trait by some.

I don't wish to turn this into a DOO conversation, it's just about staff in general. Guards may not be checking tickets on SW Suburban routes, but simply having staff there puts many people off behaving badly and many people assume they at least have the power to do so.

I remember when I worked in retail and we had a door where theft was rife. But they'd only be brave enough to brazenly steal when you were distracted. I wasn't ever chasing them as I wasn't Loss Prevention staff, but simply being there put them off. Now, theft in general clearly getting worse, but this is another example of knowing the cost of everything, and the value of nothing. I mean, who in their right mind, in principle, think's it's a good idea to destaff trains and stations in SE London, but have more visible staff in SW London and on rural 2 car Sprinters? Yes, I know it's far more complicated than that, but the it's not gone unnoticed that the areas in and around London which are traditionally poorer all magically have less staff. And that's a trend that's only begun to change with LO. Of course, evasion is down with LO, but you expect gates and station staff, and I've had ticket checks more checks on LO in a single year, than I have on Southeastern in 20.

I saw someone being physically ejected by SouthEastern's security/revenue guys at Bromley South a couple of weeks ago. Forcefully (and fairly) too. Bloke spat at them.

I'm always amazed at the level of gate staffing at Bromley South. Almost feels like airport security.

 

[PeterC]

I see it regularly now. At least 2-5 people just pushing through the barrier or following close behind someone, all under the watchful eye of TfL / TOC staff at the gates. Annoys the hell out of me. Why should I or others bother paying where there is so little enforcement or either concern from staff. Gate staff seem to be a total pointless job. Replace them with enforcement officers and/or retrain them to be enforcement officers as fare evasion is becoming a joke now

Before I retired I would pause for a moment in the gate if I thought somebody might be tailgating. Always satisfying to hear the barrier give them a whack

 

[Peter Sarf]

Before I retired I would pause for a moment in the gate if I thought somebody might be tailgating. Always satisfying to hear the barrier give them a whack

Same here. I just slow down when someone is too close behind me at the barrier. You can sense the anguish !!!.

 

[nanstallon]

It seems to me that the railways are helpless to deal with the brazen ones who simply force barriers open or refuse to pay anyway, while jumping on those who are milder mannered and have made a mistake and travelled with a wrong ticket. I regard this approach with total contempt.

But it is up to the management to make sure that they back up their staff when they are standing up to the thugs who don't have a ticket at all and have no intention of paying.

 

[announcements]

I am reminded of this clip of fare evasion with smugness: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-qFK9voKC6/?igsh=MWFpbWVydXR3c2h0bQ==

Completely undermined the member of staff's authority, and brazen enough to boast about it on his own recording uploaded to the web.

 

[nanstallon]

I am reminded of this clip of fare evasion with smugness: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-qFK9voKC6/?igsh=MWFpbWVydXR3c2h0bQ==

Completely undermined the member of staff's authority, and brazen enough to boast about it on his own recording uploaded to the web.

Modern Britain for you.

 

[yorkie]

Modern Britain for you.

So you keep saying, but is it actually worse than 30 years ago? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

It seems to me that the railways are helpless to deal with the brazen ones who simply force barriers open or refuse to pay anyway, while jumping on those who are milder mannered and have made a mistake and travelled with a wrong ticket. I regard this approach with total contempt.

Indeed; it is more lucrative to do it that way.

The DfT are very keen for TOCs to go after people who don't have the right ticket, and are keen for penalty fares to be given out for taking the wrong TOC, and for the penalty fares to be disproportionately high.

The DfT are not quite so keen for the dodgiest characters to be dealt with, as it's very costly and there is no money in it.

...it's just about staff in general....

Indeed; and the more visible they are, the better.

... Of course, evasion is down with LO, but you expect gates and station staff, and I've had ticket checks more checks on LO in a single year, than I have on Southeastern in 20...

Exactly; this demonstrates it really isn't about the method of train operation at all!

 

[Sonic1234]

It seems to me that the railways are helpless to deal with the brazen ones who simply force barriers open or refuse to pay anyway, while jumping on those who are milder mannered and have made a mistake and travelled with a wrong ticket. I regard this approach with total contempt.

Exactly, it's going for the low hanging fruit. They'll prosecute someone who selected 16-25 railcard when they have a 26-30 (they're the same thing, basically) because they're compliant. The determined not to pay types are more challenging. It's a compliance tax, where sneaky or aggressive behaviour is rewarded.

 

[takno]

So you keep saying, but is it actually worse than 30 years ago? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I was thinking about this the other day. I was robbed a couple of times and had teeth kicked out just from walking around central Leeds on my own in the 90s. There was nothing unusual about that, to the point where it wasn't even worth reporting to the police. When I tell people about that now they are generally appalled, and indeed the crime figures suggest that it is both much less common now and treated much more seriously when it does happen.

In terms of fare enforcement the vast majority of stations were open, on-train staff never did anything more severe than sell you the cheapest ticket in the unlikely event that they made it down the train between stops, and it wasn't much of a challenge to rush the ticket-checkers at Leeds. Pay-if-challenged was the default for a large proportion of the population, and there wasn't really much of a moral dimension to it.

 

[Turtle]

Same here. I just slow down when someone is too close behind me at the barrier. You can sense the anguish !!!.

Yes. I did that once at Victoria. Quite satisfying.

 

[whoosh]

I know it isn't the railway, and it seems to have disappeared off the internet, but there was a site with the memories of someone who worked as a Glasgow bus conductor in the 1960s.
He stated people used to get aggressive if the full fare was asked for and ticket issued. What they wanted, if they were going to pay anything, was to pay half the fare, the Conductor pocket it, and no more said about it!

Drivers would sabotage their buses in the late evening on Fridays and Saturdays if their run was due past a pub at closing time, along with certain hotels on Sundays (as these had the only bars open), making them either not start or have lack of air so the parking brake wouldn't release.
A young bus conductor was murdered on a Saturday night in the city in February 1969.
Front entrance buses were to be used in the evenings, so the Conductor wasn't separate from the driver to make them a bit safer.

So thuggery, robbery, assaults, drunken yobs, fare dodging, staff feeling unsafe, honest people paying up and arrogant brutes not, were all things going on back then 60 years ago.



In relation to South Eastern - back at the end of the 1990s Connex South Eastern had a big recruitment drive for Revenue Inspectors, along with publicity about how much revenue was previously being lost to ticketless travel.
Fast forward a couple of years, and redundancy beckoned for a considerable number of the inspectors.

A year or so after that, in 2000, I happened to join Connex and there were Revenue Inspectors on my induction to the company, being part of a big drive to crack down on ticketless travel, along with large amounts of publicity about how they were sorting the problem.

In 2001 or maybe 2002, Revenue Inspectors were cut in large numbers to save money.

I left Connex in 2003, just as a big recruitment drive for Revenue Inspectors was taking place, alongside a shouting from the rooftops publicity campaign about how these new staff will stop the millions of pounds lost to ticketless travel...

 

[Meerkat]

I actually work on the gate line at one of London's busiest underground stations and see first hand very high numbers of fare evasion, especially in the late evening.

Quite often I am on my own for periods up to an hour, yet passengers still expect me to "tackle" fare evaders.

We are told by senior management to let them go and fill out a form, which takes a couple of minutes. There is not always time to do this if you have a queue of people asking for assistance.

My job as a CSA is to assist customers which includes a variety of things from advising on routes, best ticketing options, helping disabled customers, dealing with customers who get stuck in the barriers, lost money in ticket machines etc.

At a busy station, the job is very interesting and rewarding, as long as you remember that a vast majority of customers are very nice to you, and the deliberate fare evaders are in a very small minority.

I am certainly not going to risk getting assaulted over a £2.80 fare.

Absolutely understandable.
Bare minimum the gate staff should be given counters and an easy way to submit the results to HQ so resources can be focussed on times and places.
Better still a record button that sends CCTV clips of gate pushers to a central server where similar collation was done and multi offence cases built up. Could probably get AI to do it. Bet if you showed the photos to the plod they would be pretty interested in certain faces and when they might be at a particular location, and a supplied holding charge to use.

 

[jumble]

YouGov poll

YouGov have published a poll into the issue of fare evasion in London. Make of it what you will. I'd be curious to read what TfL staff make of it because it does feel more like an attack on their performance than anything else, as the article writer leads with the headline "Half of London Tube and train travellers say they’ve seen TfL staff fail to challenge fare dodgers". It also appears the writer is under the impression TfL staff SHOULD be "challenging", "tackling" or "confronting" fare evaders as a matter of policy. I understand this is not the case, and CSA's are specifically advised to refrain from getting involved because there have been numerous examples of this leading to assaults.

Any thoughts?

That’s interesting. The guys you mention are a rare species, rarely sighted in the wild! Come to think of it I might have seen them on the Elizabeth line a few weeks back, challenging a beggar (who duly left the train). I must admit, I’m not entirely comfortable with the idea of rail staff detaining people, for various reasons.

@REO Nate might have some insight into the SE position re. detention by REOs.

I go to Stratford from time to time
The TFL Enforcement chaps are there quite often ( I would say 1/3 of the time)

YouGov poll

YouGov have published a poll into the issue of fare evasion in London. Make of it what you will. I'd be curious to read what TfL staff make of it because it does feel more like an attack on their performance than anything else, as the article writer leads with the headline "Half of London Tube and train travellers say they’ve seen TfL staff fail to challenge fare dodgers". It also appears the writer is under the impression TfL staff SHOULD be "challenging", "tackling" or "confronting" fare evaders as a matter of policy. I understand this is not the case, and CSA's are specifically advised to refrain from getting involved because there have been numerous examples of this leading to assaults.

Any thoughts?

At a TFL station near my home the Gateline staff mostly hide in the redundant ticket office which has a glass screen overlooking the gateline
Some are known to leave the gates open while guarding the gateline
To be fair there have been a couple of shocking unprovoked assaults in the past year

That’s Bromley South for you, sadly.

Given how affluent the surrounding areas are that station attracts no end of trouble. There was a member of platform staff stabbed there, not so long ago.

As for spitting, how people remain professional in that situation after they’ve been spat at is honestly beyond me. I’m not sure I could, and I have utmost admiration for colleagues who manage to do so.

I know quite well an ex RPI for one of the London TOCS who resigned and is unemployed as they could no longer take being repeatedly spat on.
Mind you it just needs DNA to be collected as it is quite likely the perp will be on the database.

 

[Mawkie]

Bare minimum the gate staff should be given counters and an easy way to submit the results to HQ so resources can be focussed on times and places.

Every CSA has an iPad and every iPad has a series of company apps installed. One of which is the antisocial behaviour app, which allows CSAs to quickly record incidents of aggression, fare evasion, etc.

I roll my eyes internally when I hear people say "That CSA was just sitting on his iPad, doing nothing" as the truth is, the CSA is probably recording the details required to build the picture around antisocial behaviours to the extent that there will be a greater police presence, or a visit from the revenue inspectors, at some point in the future.

At the very least, these iPad entries give a better idea of the scale of anti social behaviour on the network.

 

[73Stock]

Somebody pushed their way through the wide barriers at Hatton Cross today.

 

[AndroidBango]

Saw a couple of scallies push through the gates ... and get lifted by the police at Euston this morning.

 

[Gooner18]

Is fare evasion a criminal or civil offence?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is fare evasion a criminal or civil offence?

It is a crime, variously under Bylaws and Regulation of Railways Act.

 

[Dima]

I once saw a passenger physically stopping a fare evader who tried squeezing behind him through the barriers, and handing him over to a gate line worker. Sadly, the fare evader was let go with, as far as I can tell, no consequences as soon as the Good Samaritan disappeared from view, as the gate line staff cannot do much.

I'm in the 40% here. Going after dishonest behaviour like this should be the prime concern, over recovering lost revenue.

I think I disagree here. No system is absolutely bullet-proof from abuse, and at some point more enforcement will bring diminishing returns and, more importantly, cause inconvenience to fare-paying passengers (e. g. if we have barriers installed everywhere, or if we ask all passengers to show their railcards every time they are used etc).

That being said, to comparison between the amount of money spend on enforcement and revenue collected through penalties done in the article doesn’t paint the full picture. I think the main benefit of enforcement is not the penalties being collected, but the compliance level being maintained. I am sure that if there was literally zero enforcement, very few people would still be paying their fare.

 

[Sonic1234]

I am sure that if there was literally zero enforcement, very few people would still be paying their fare.

That depends on attitudes and culture. The majority of people will always do the right thing, a minority will never pay their fare and a minority who will pay if challenged or believe there is a reasonable chance of being challenged. The last group is who enforcement targets.

In small towns, parking enforcement can be sporadic or non existant - not worth the district council sending someone out to circulate the town for hours on end hoping to give out a £25 ticket (not a crime if you get one, unlike being caught on the railway). But most people do pay in the car parks, respect the time limit on the 2 hour bays etc.

 

[Meerkat]

In small towns, parking enforcement can be sporadic or non existant - not worth the district council sending someone out to circulate the town for hours on end hoping to give out a £25 ticket (not a crime if you get one, unlike being caught on the railway). But most people do pay in the car parks, respect the time limit on the 2 hour bays etc.

That’s mainly because most people have no idea how much enforcement there is.

 

[REO Nate]

That’s interesting. The guys you mention are a rare species, rarely sighted in the wild! Come to think of it I might have seen them on the Elizabeth line a few weeks back, challenging a beggar (who duly left the train). I must admit, I’m not entirely comfortable with the idea of rail staff detaining people, for various reasons.

@REO Nate might have some insight into the SE position re. detention by REOs.

Its been a while since I did that job and I have since moved on to guard and now driver, but in SE we were authorised to detain people under the Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme, which gave limited policing powers to us. Generally we would go down the ejection route, but were authorised to detain people under limited circumstances. On several occasions we detained repeat offenders on the railway and when the BTP turned up to deal with them, they were wanted for other much more serious offences. So it does have its time and place to be used, but I personally would like to see FAR more BTP out and about on the ground.