Abbey Line question

[A0]

Yes but just because they lobby/support intra-County links, that doesn't create demand. My point is more that county thinking, loyalty, employment, county towns, county usage in addresses etc - has faded with the coming of unitary authorities and really doesn't extend far beyond cricket teams!

I do agree in part - though it is worth noting that Herts isn't a Unitary at this time - it's still county and district / borough councils.

But I think Herts County Council are misguided in their focus on links within county - I mentioned it on a thread in the Buses section about their use of BSIP funding to introduce a service from Cheshunt to Stevenage, via Broxbourne, Ware and Hertford. The Hertford - Cheshunt corridor already being well served with both commercial bus routes and the rail line. I suspect if you polled people in Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Hoddesdon or Ware about where they wanted better links to, that Harlow would feature above Stevenage, but since that's over the border in Essex, Herts CC aren't looking at it.

 

[cle]

But I think Herts County Council are misguided in their focus on links within county - I mentioned it on a thread in the Buses section about their use of BSIP funding to introduce a service from Cheshunt to Stevenage, via Broxbourne, Ware and Hertford. The Hertford - Cheshunt corridor already being well served with both commercial bus routes and the rail line. I suspect if you polled people in Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Hoddesdon or Ware about where they wanted better links to, that Harlow would feature above Stevenage, but since that's over the border in Essex, Herts CC aren't looking at it.

Yes I would agree with that. Similarly, I bet Watford engages more with Luton than with Welwyn (St Albans even more so, of course) - and Luton is Beds. Irrelevant in the day to day though, but other than things like local bus provision.

Fair on unitary authorities. I wonder if you see them folding Hertsmere and Three Rivers into a Watford 'mega-city' one day! Seems that South Oxhey is already counted... you might even see some better urban transport thinking with consolidation.

 

[A0]

Yes I would agree with that. Similarly, I bet Watford engages more with Luton than with Welwyn (St Albans even more so, of course) - and Luton is Beds. Irrelevant in the day to day though, but other than things like local bus provision.

Fair on unitary authorities. I wonder if you see them folding Hertsmere and Three Rivers into a Watford 'mega-city' one day! Seems that South Oxhey is already counted... you might even see some better urban transport thinking with consolidation.

Bit in bold - that I doubt.

Luton and Watford aren't exactly known as friendly towards each other....... And apart from the airport, I'm not sure what Luton has to offer to Watford.

 

[cle]

I was thinking the airport really

 

[stuu]

Bit in bold - that I doubt.

Luton and Watford aren't exactly known as friendly towards each other....... And apart from the airport, I'm not sure what Luton has to offer to Watford.

Watford has jobs, which Luton doesn't. Loads of people travelled in from Luton when I worked there, including one poor sod who did the 321 bus every day. The company across the road from where I worked used to run a minibus to Luton for employees

 

[A0]

Watford has jobs, which Luton doesn't. Loads of people travelled in from Luton when I worked there, including one poor sod who did the 321 bus every day. The company across the road from where I worked used to run a minibus to Luton for employees

That I struggle to believe, Luton has just as many if not more large employers than Watford.

 

[stuu]

That I struggle to believe, Luton has just as many if not more large employers than Watford.

White collar jobs then. Watford has a fair bit of office employment. My current employer has over 1000 people there, for example

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't be too confident on M&S though - they've publicly stated their plans to reduce their estate by closing 67 of their "full line" stores by 2028 down from 247 to 180.

Given they have the London Colney store in close proximity, I could easily see St Albans going and being replaced with a smaller food only store.

I may come to regret this, but I just can’t see M&S moving from where they are. It is consistently busy. Big queues whenever I go in at the weekend, for example. The Colney branch is quite a pain to get to for a large portion of St Albans folk - we never ever go there for example, as it’s quicker to walk the 20 minutes to town than drive across there.

Google Streetview has it all boarded up in 2014..... Looks like it was open by 2017 though.

opened November ‘14. I saw Spectre there on opening night - black tie and martinis - don’t remember much about it though!

Harry Potter is latterly another source of inbound visitors, especially off-peak/counter.

Indeed, and a good source of rail revenue, with a busly flow from the Junction on the themed shuttle buses.

One of these buses (reg HP11BUS or similar) does a local school bus run around here for Parmiters school before the place opens, which I imagine is quite cool for the kids… for about 3 days.

 

[Richardr]

Watford has jobs, which Luton doesn't. Loads of people travelled in from Luton when I worked there, including one poor sod who did the 321 bus every day. The company across the road from where I worked used to run a minibus to Luton for employees

Luton has over 50% more jobs than Watford has. There are estimated to be 11,000 alone associated with the airport, and a total number of about 93,000 jobs in Luton.

For travel, figures about 10 years old, but 28,814 travelled into Watford, as opposed to 24,790 who travelled out (mainly London commuters I would guess).

 

[cle]

White collar jobs then. Watford has a fair bit of office employment. My current employer has over 1000 people there, for example

I think Aowen is underestimating the number of jobs in Watford, and company HQ/regional HQs. I've been there for meetings for 3 different, large brand clients, in my time. Stevenage I went to Betfair once. The others justb don't compare in that capacity.

Luton has the airport, and Easyjet specifically, yes. It's very different. And the Parkway has stimulated other activity. Traditional Luton - nope. Bloated small service town.

 

[A0]

I think Aowen is underestimating the number of jobs in Watford, and company HQ/regional HQs. I've been there for meetings for 3 different, large brand clients, in my time. Stevenage I went to Betfair once. The others justb don't compare in that capacity.

Luton has the airport, and Easyjet specifically, yes. It's very different. And the Parkway has stimulated other activity. Traditional Luton - nope. Bloated small service town.

Nope - Stevenage has GSK, MBDA (formerly part of BAe), Airbus as major employers.

Watford has TJX Europe, Wetherspoons and Ralph Lauren.

I suspect your experience is more shaped by whoever you were working for and their sector. But I'm not aware of Watford having a GSK or MBDA in their area.

 

[Richardr]

Per ONS stats, the employment within each district in Hertfordshire plus Luton is (in thousands):

Dacorum	119.5​
Welwyn Hatfield	92.2​
St Albans	75.0​
Watford	69.6​
East Hertfordshire	66.9​
Hertsmere	58.8​
North Hertfordshire	55.1​
Stevenage	47.6​
Three Rivers	42.2​
Broxbourne	33.7​
Luton	95.4​

 

[A S Leib]

Per ONS stats, the employment within each district in Hertfordshire plus Luton is (in thousands):

Dacorum	119.5​
Welwyn Hatfield	92.2​
St Albans	75.0​
Watford	69.6​
East Hertfordshire	66.9​
Hertsmere	58.8​
North Hertfordshire	55.1​
Stevenage	47.6​
Three Rivers	42.2​
Broxbourne	33.7​
Luton	95.4​

As a percentage of population (for the sake of comparison) -
Dacorum - 77%
Welwyn Hatfield - 77%
St. Albans - 51%
Watford - 69%
East Herts - 45%
Hertsmere - 54%
North Herts - 41%
Stevenage - 53%
Three Rivers - 45%
Broxbourne - 34%
Luton - 42%

The 16 - 64 age group makes up 60 - 66% of the total population in all of them.

 

[stuu]

The ONS travel to work maps show how far people travel, for various different levels as small as council ward. Luton is notable in having a number of wards where 20%+ of people travel more than 10km to work. The highest percentage in St Albans is 14.6%. Combined with the percentages of types of job in each locale, the pattern seems to be that there are less professional/clerical roles available in Luton and people have to commute to work. Or alternatively that housing is cheap and people move there to commute. Either way they aren't working in Luton.

Distance travelled to work - Census Maps, ONS

Census maps is an interactive tool to explore Census 2021 data across England and Wales for different topics down to a neighbourhood level.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As a percentage of population (for the sake of comparison) -
Dacorum - 77%
Welwyn Hatfield - 77%
St. Albans - 51%
Watford - 69%
East Herts - 45%
Hertsmere - 54%
North Herts - 41%
Stevenage - 53%
Three Rivers - 45%
Broxbourne - 34%
Luton - 42%

The 16 - 64 age group makes up 60 - 66% of the total population in all of them.

Excellent piece of work and a refreshing view on the dynamics of some of the factors involved. A welcome change from "what livery should xxx units be" ........

 

[edwin_m]

The ONS travel to work maps show how far people travel, for various different levels as small as council ward. Luton is notable in having a number of wards where 20%+ of people travel more than 10km to work. The highest percentage in St Albans is 14.6%. Combined with the percentages of types of job in each locale, the pattern seems to be that there are less professional/clerical roles available in Luton and people have to commute to work. Or alternatively that housing is cheap and people move there to commute. Either way they aren't working in Luton.

Distance travelled to work - Census Maps, ONS

Census maps is an interactive tool to explore Census 2021 data across England and Wales for different topics down to a neighbourhood level.

www.ons.gov.uk

There is also census data on origins and destinations of travel to work, which can be very useful in understanding travel patterns when evaluating proposals for new transport routes.

 

[Verulamius]

Unfortunately the 2021 census was impacted by covid restrictions.

I was working at home at the time. Previously I commuted from St Albans to Canary Wharf 5 days a week. Now I am working 2 or 3 days a week in Watford with the rest at home in St Albans.

Travel patterns for professionals have changed completely with virtual meetings.

 

[cle]

Unfortunately the 2021 census was impacted by covid restrictions.

I was working at home at the time. Previously I commuted from St Albans to Canary Wharf 5 days a week. Now I am working 2 or 3 days a week in Watford with the rest at home in St Albans.

Travel patterns for professionals have changed completely with virtual meetings.

Do you take this eponymous train? How do you find it, usage, and timings etc, anecdotally?