Abbey Wood & North Greenwich

[NorthKent1989]

Not sure if this is still going ahead as this article is from February of this year:

https://853blog.com/2017/02/27/tfl-...-180-through-lewisham-greenwich-and-charlton/

But why the need for this? The 472 already does a good job of linking Thamesmead, Plumstead, Woolwich and Charlton with North Greenwich tube hub/the o2 centre, the 180 is a pretty useful trunk route across SE London linking the isolated Belvedere with the major hubs of Woolwich, Greenwich & Lewisham.

Also why the need to continually rely on North Greenwich to get commuters to the Docklands, surely from 2018 Abbey Wood will largely displace North Greenwich for this function thanks to the Elizabeth line, since this will become connected to The Docklands, The City, West End and beyond, and the 180 doesn't parallel the Liz Line at any point.

If anything they should be increasing and strengthening bus links to Abbey Wood and Woolwich.

One link im surprised TfL have not considered is extending the 96 to North Greenwich but via Blackheath Royal Standard then onto the A102 thereby creating a link with the o2 centre and Bluewater, but since Westfields has opened in Stratford I doubt this link is needed now.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't think this has been the subject of a TfL consultation. It's a long time since I lived in the area served by the 180, but it was always a busy route and gained Routemasters well before any other routes from Abbey Wood and Catford garages to replace RTs, in order to gain the 8 extra seats per bus. Later on, it got the fast Metropolitans, providing even more seats, still crew operated. Even during the cutbacks of the 1970s, there was still a 10 minute evening service between Plumstead and Lewisham, which I used to get from my night classes. I am beginning to seriously wonder whether there is a death wish in the TfL bus division.

 

[plcd1]

TfL will be unleashing a pile of consultations once the Election is out of the way. These will have to cover changes to routes in East and South East London for Crossrail as a minimum. I am also expecting a slew of other Central London changes to cut services even more.

If anyone is seriously expecting TfL to strengthen services into North Greenwich they are living in "la la" land. TfL's aim is to push people on to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and Woolwich (as the OP said) and for them to pay higher fares. They do NOT want more people at North Greenwich given people only pay a Z12 fare plus there is a load of redevelopment due there which will seriously affect bus service reliability. TfL's approach to that is to reduce services / slow them down / make them less frequent. Furthermore if the Silvertown Tunnel is ever built then that will also create huge traffic problems during construction. We can expect to see bus routes being restructured to make it more awkward to reach cheaper travel modes. Sorry if that sounds very cynical but you should see the scale of revenue increase they are expecting for Crossrail!

I think TfL are also preparing to "slaughter" a few longstanding "sacred" bus routes. I fully expect to see route 25 be dismantled as a through service from Ilford and also route 86 is likely to be cut back in order to push people on to rail. The big question is whether the public will accept all of this given the demographic in much of E and SE London is not very well off and therefore people trade time against fares with buses winning out due to lower fares.

 

[Busaholic]

TfL will be unleashing a pile of consultations once the Election is out of the way. These will have to cover changes to routes in East and South East London for Crossrail as a minimum. I am also expecting a slew of other Central London changes to cut services even more.

If anyone is seriously expecting TfL to strengthen services into North Greenwich they are living in "la la" land. TfL's aim is to push people on to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and Woolwich (as the OP said) and for them to pay higher fares. They do NOT want more people at North Greenwich given people only pay a Z12 fare plus there is a load of redevelopment due there which will seriously affect bus service reliability. TfL's approach to that is to reduce services / slow them down / make them less frequent. Furthermore if the Silvertown Tunnel is ever built then that will also create huge traffic problems during construction. We can expect to see bus routes being restructured to make it more awkward to reach cheaper travel modes. Sorry if that sounds very cynical but you should see the scale of revenue increase they are expecting for Crossrail!

I think TfL are also preparing to "slaughter" a few longstanding "sacred" bus routes. I fully expect to see route 25 be dismantled as a through service from Ilford and also route 86 is likely to be cut back in order to push people on to rail. The big question is whether the public will accept all of this given the demographic in much of E and SE London is not very well off and therefore people trade time against fares with buses winning out due to lower fares.

Spot-on. I can well believe the 472 getting reduced from 8 to 5 bph once Crossrail opens to Abbey Wood, but the idea of other routes getting diverted to North Greenwich has to be nonsense.
The Central London/Oxford Street plans, now starting to be implemented, are seeing the 242 cut back from Tottenham Court Road to St Pauls and the 'temporary' curtailment of the 8 from Oxford Circus to TCR being made permanent. Therefore the choice of the 25 continuing to OC, rather than the 8, has been made. It therefore appears blindingly obvious that, if the 25 is to be cut in length, it will be done from the Ilford end, presumably to Stratford, a section paralleled by the 86 of course. I'd have thought the 86 might continue in its present form, perhaps with a small bph decrease, because there seems no particular reason why people not already using the rail service for those suburban links will defect to it just because it's Crossrail.

Labour made one of their few gains at the last General Election in Ilford, so, assuming he's re-elected, Wes Streeting, MP, in a marginal seat, will no doubt be fighting for the bus users of his constituency.

I wonder if Sadiq Khan is regretting his freeze on bus fares decision?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm seeing more 53's terminating at Lambeth North than continuing onto Whitehall these days even though the route was restored there recently:-\

 

[Busaholic]

I'm seeing more 53's terminating at Lambeth North than continuing onto Whitehall these days even though the route was restored there recently:-\

Isn't this because of yet more roadworks i.e. planned curtailments to avoid (in theory at least) a frequency reduction?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Isn't this because of yet more roadworks i.e. planned curtailments to avoid (in theory at least) a frequency reduction?

I've not seen Road works around the Westminster area recently, some 53's do carry on to Whitehall, but the majority are cut short at Lambeth, maybe they're reintroducing the routes overlapping sections it had during the 90s.

I recall not every 53 reached Oxford Street, some terminated at Trafalgar Sq or even Elephant & Castle.

I can see the routes in the Bexleyheath/Thamesmead/Woolwich areas being tweeked ahead of Crossrail, alot of the routes that terminated by the Woolwich High Street I think will now terminate at the Liz Line station.

I can see routes that previously terminated at Thamesmead will most likely carry on to Abbey Wood

 

[danorak]

According to TfL's status page:

Route 53 does not run between Westminster Bridge Road (Lower Marsh) and Whitehall (between 06:00 and midnight each day) until early August 2017. This is due to utility works in Parliament Square.

 

[danorak]

Spot-on. I can well believe the 472 getting reduced from 8 to 5 bph once Crossrail opens to Abbey Wood, but the idea of other routes getting diverted to North Greenwich has to be nonsense.

The talk of diverting the 180 to North Greenwich is precisely because of such a rumoured reduction to the 472. TfL may well want to get people onto Crossrail but it can't just ignore the local demand in the Charlton/Greenwich area which will only get worse as new developments spring up. The continued inadequacy of the Greenwich line will be another factor.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've not seen Road works around the Westminster area recently, some 53's do carry on to Whitehall, but the majority are cut short at Lambeth, maybe they're reintroducing the routes overlapping sections it had during the 90s. ...

According to TfL's status page:

Route 53 does not run between Westminster Bridge Road (Lower Marsh) and Whitehall (between 06:00 and midnight each day) until early August 2017. This is due to utility works in Parliament Square.

More info about the utility works at Parliament Square on this TfL webpage. They are being carried out by Westminster City Council so possibly drainage works?

Also interesting to note:

Because of the general election on Thursday 8 June and other events around Parliament Square, we're rescheduling works. These include closures of Bridge Street Abington Street.

Major works are expected to restart on 21 June. Please check back here for more details.

They have been happening right on the lower end of Parliament Street (which is what Whitehall becomes), next to Parliament Square. At different times the road has been or will be closed one way or the other or turns between Bridge Street (leading to/from Westminster Bridge) and Parliament Square have been restricted, meaning a journey all the way around Parliament Square.

 

[Busaholic]

The talk of diverting the 180 to North Greenwich is precisely because of such a rumoured reduction to the 472. TfL may well want to get people onto Crossrail but it can't just ignore the local demand in the Charlton/Greenwich area which will only get worse as new developments spring up. The continued inadequacy of the Greenwich line will be another factor.

I'll tell you why I don't believe this. Running times are increasing in all parts of London, but SE London is one of the worst affected. This means either frequencies have to be reduced at certain times of the day, or there has to be a PVR increase, or a combination of the two. In some instances now, there is a PVR decrease combined with an even more drastic frequency decrease (e.g. the 328 in the inner W/NW districts). The 180 has bucked the trend by recently receiving a PVR upgrade of two buses (without frequency increase) which is now virtually unprecedented - the 78 was the previous one I remember, about 18 months ago. With the austerity measures prevailing, this can only have been done because loadings justify it.There are many ways of providing a different bus route to North Greenwich, if needed, which the 472 cutback suggests is unlikely anyway: e.g. run some extra 'shorts' at peaks on the 472.

 

[plcd1]

I'll tell you why I don't believe this. Running times are increasing in all parts of London, but SE London is one of the worst affected. This means either frequencies have to be reduced at certain times of the day, or there has to be a PVR increase, or a combination of the two. In some instances now, there is a PVR decrease combined with an even more drastic frequency decrease (e.g. the 328 in the inner W/NW districts). The 180 has bucked the trend by recently receiving a PVR upgrade of two buses (without frequency increase) which is now virtually unprecedented - the 78 was the previous one I remember, about 18 months ago. With the austerity measures prevailing, this can only have been done because loadings justify it.There are many ways of providing a different bus route to North Greenwich, if needed, which the 472 cutback suggests is unlikely anyway: e.g. run some extra 'shorts' at peaks on the 472.

Err the 180's new contract, started in Oct last year, saw increased daily frequencies which will explain the PVR increase. It saw its patronage in 2016/17 go up over 10% (more than 400,000 extra pass jnys).

 

[Busaholic]

Err the 180's new contract, started in Oct last year, saw increased daily frequencies which will explain the PVR increase. It saw its patronage in 2016/17 go up over 10% (more than 400,000 extra pass jnys).

Well, I'd obviously forgotten the frequency increase, but you've helped make my point i.e. why would it get unnecessarily diverted?