Abbey Wood to Walton-on-Thames

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm planning to travel Abbey Wood to Walton-on-Thames tomorrow. I'd prefer to go via Elizabeth line to Tottenham Court Road, then Northern line to Waterloo - since that route gets me to Waterloo quickest and on frequent trains. I also have a Network railcard, so would prefer to buy a single ticket so I can get the 1/3 discount for the entire journey. But looking on brfares.com, I see none of the available tickets are marked cross-London, which I'm guessing means I wouldn't be allowed to travel by that route?

Is there any national rail ticket I can buy that would allow me to make that journey on one ticket?

 

[Haywain]

Is there any national rail ticket I can buy that would allow me to make that journey on one ticket?

Yes, you'd need to spend a few quid extra and buy a Zone U1234 to Walton on Thames ticket. Journeys commencing at Abbey Wood on the Elizabeth line are deemed to be starting on the underground.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any national rail ticket I can buy that would allow me to make that journey on one ticket?

Everything round there is routed 'London Not Und' so no, not without paying a lot more than it would cost to make the journey from Abbey Wood to Walton-on-Thames via Waterloo East / Waterloo.

Gravesend to Walton-on-Thames (actually Swanscombe but it is all one cluster) is where the '+Any Permitted' fares start, connected to validity via St Pancras, and Ebbsfleet also being in the cluster.

Zone U1234 to Walton-on-Thames is cheaper than this though.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, you'd need to spend a few quid extra and buy a Zone U1234 to Walton on Thames ticket. Journeys commencing at Abbey Wood on the Elizabeth line are deemed to be starting on the underground.

Ah OK, so for this kind of situation, I need a U1234 to Walton (or whatever station) ticket.

How do I find out on brfares.com how much that kind of ticket is? Typing in 'U1234' as an origin station doesn't appear to work. Do the network railcard discounts apply equally to U1234 to X tickets?

Everything round there is routed 'London Not Und' so no, not without paying a lot more than it would cost to make the journey from Abbey Wood to Walton-on-Thames via Waterloo East / Waterloo.

Gravesend to Walton-on-Thames (actually Swanscombe but it is all one cluster) is where the '+Any Permitted' fares start, connected to validity via St Pancras, and Ebbsfleet also being in the cluster.

Zone U1234 to Walton-on-Thames is cheaper than this though.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency here. I just did a bit more checking and, from Abbey Wood, it appears that for stations on the SWR main line:

• Abbey Wood to Walton-on Thames or Woking, cross London isn't allowed.
• Abbey Wood to Basingstoke is marked 'London not Underground' - which presumably would allow Elizabeth line via Reading, but not Tottenham Court Road - Waterloo
• Abbey Wood to Southampton or Bournemouth - Cross London is allowed.

I can get why Basingstoke should be different from Woking - because going via Reading now makes sense. But it seems odd that Southampton has different conditions from Basingstoke.

 

[JonathanH]

Abbey Wood to Basingstoke is marked 'London not Underground' - which presumably would allow Elizabeth line via Reading, but not Tottenham Court Road - Waterloo

The routeing hasn't been updated since the opening of the Elizabeth Line.

While it is a National Rail train, you wouldn't be able to get an itinerary for a ticket from Abbey Wood to Basingstoke via the Elizabeth Line and Reading using a 'London Not Underground' ticket, because the decision has been made that a Cross-London ticket is needed.

The change to implement 'London Not Underground' on many flows between SW and SE stations was made in NSE days, as a way of reducing the amount paid to London Underground for tickets where passengers were using Waterloo / Waterloo East to make their connections.

I note that 'mixing deck' websites show the 'London Not Underground' restriction as 'Valid only for travel via London Terminals, but not valid on Underground or Elizabeth line services'. The '+ Any Permitted' fare is needed to go from Abbey Wood to Basingstoke via the Elizabeth Line.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Ah OK, so for this kind of situation, I need a U1234 to Walton (or whatever station) ticket.

How do I find out on brfares.com how much that kind of ticket is? Typing in 'U1234' as an origin station doesn't appear to work. Do the network railcard discounts apply equally to U1234 to X tickets?



Yeah, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency here. I just did a bit more checking and, from Abbey Wood, it appears that for stations on the SWR main line:

• Abbey Wood to Walton-on Thames or Woking, cross London isn't allowed.
• Abbey Wood to Basingstoke is marked 'London not Underground' - which presumably would allow Elizabeth line via Reading, but not Tottenham Court Road - Waterloo
• Abbey Wood to Southampton or Bournemouth - Cross London is allowed.

I can get why Basingstoke should be different from Woking - because going via Reading now makes sense. But it seems odd that Southampton has different conditions from Basingstoke.

https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=0792&dest=WAL&rlc=NEW

That seems to show it, £8.15 with railcard. Slightly cheaper than doing the first bit contactless (£3.30 Abbey Wood to Waterloo) and £5.25 for Waterloo to Walton on Thames single, pity no Network Railcard discount on Oyster/Contactless otherwise that would work out slightly cheaper.

 

[cactustwirly]

The routeing hasn't been updated since the opening of the Elizabeth Line.

While it is a National Rail train, you wouldn't be able to get an itinerary for a ticket from Abbey Wood to Basingstoke via the Elizabeth Line and Reading using a 'London Not Underground' ticket, because the decision has been made that a Cross-London ticket is needed.

The change to implement 'London Not Underground' on many flows between SW and SE stations was made in NSE days, as a way of reducing the amount paid to London Underground for tickets where passengers were using Waterloo / Waterloo East to make their connections.

I note that 'mixing deck' websites show the 'London Not Underground' restriction as 'Valid only for travel via London Terminals, but not valid on Underground or Elizabeth line services'. The '+ Any Permitted' fare is needed to go from Abbey Wood to Basingstoke via the Elizabeth Line.

Is Abbey Wood-Basingstoke via Reading within 3 miles of the shortest route?

 

[JonathanH]

Is Abbey Wood-Basingstoke via Reading within 3 miles of the shortest route?

No.

Abbey Wood to Waterloo East is 10¾ miles, Waterloo to Basingstoke is 47¾ miles. Total 58½ miles.

Abbey Wood to Basingstoke via the Elizabeth Line and Reading is 65½ miles.

However, it is the railway's interpretation of 'London Not Und' that stops validity via the Elizabeth Line, not the routeing guide.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

However, it is the railway's interpretation of 'London Not Und' that stops validity via the Elizabeth Line, not the routeing guide.

I imagine that would confuse quite a few people as it's not at all intuitive whether the Elizabeth line counts as part of 'The Underground'. Upthread, I assumed incorrectly that 'London Not Und' meant you could use the Elizabeth line but not the Northern line - and I'm someone who is a lot more familiar with the railways than the average member of the public.

https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=0792&dest=WAL&rlc=NEW

That seems to show it, £8.15 with railcard. Slightly cheaper than doing the first bit contactless (£3.30 Abbey Wood to Waterloo) and £5.25 for Waterloo to Walton on Thames single, pity no Network Railcard discount on Oyster/Contactless otherwise that would work out slightly cheaper.

Ah, brilliant. Or £12.05 for the Sunday day return that I'll be getting, which seems a reasonable fare for that journey. And I guess I have to remember in future the code 0792 when I want to check ticket prices for getting somewhere on the Elizabeth line. (Oh isn't the ticketing system so great! )

 

[cactustwirly]

No.

Abbey Wood to Waterloo East is 10¾ miles, Waterloo to Basingstoke is 47¾ miles. Total 58½ miles.

Abbey Wood to Basingstoke via the Elizabeth Line and Reading is 65½ miles.

However, it is the railway's interpretation of 'London Not Und' that stops validity via the Elizabeth Line, not the routeing guide.

Well the shortest route/3 mile rule is written in the NRCoT.
It would be difficult for TfL to argue that it isn't valid (if it was within 3 miles of the shortest route), given that the Elizabeth line is a national rail ToC and subject to the NRCoT

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well, so much for getting a Zone1-4 to Walton-on-Thames ticket.... When I rolled up at Abbey Wood on Sunday, the ticket office was closed and it turned out the ticket machines wouldn't sell me that ticket - they could only sell the ticket from Abbey Wood, which wouldn't let me travel via the underground. By the time I'd faffed around trying to buy the right ticket (including a quick look on the railforums tickets site to see if they could sell me a from-zone-4 ticket - they couldn't either), I'd just missed one Elizabeth line train, and then it turned out that the next one was cancelled. Since there was a Cannon Street service due, I figured at that point it'd now be just as quick to go via London Bridge anyway, although there was no way I could get my planned 17:37 train from Waterloo.

Amazingly, from that poor start the journey got worse ... Because little did I know that there were no trains between London Bridge and Charing Cross because of engineering works (I hadn't checked because I wasn't expecting to be on that route). Headed to London Bridge tube station to try to get on the Jubilee line, on the assumption that would be an accepted alternative route - to discover the Jubilee line gateline was closed and the Northern gateline staff who would need to let me through were all currently occupied dealing with a bunch of idiot cyclists who were trying to take their bikes on the tube!!!! After some wait for that problem to be sorted, the TfL staff were fine about letting me through.

So, I finally got to Waterloo just in time to discover that the train half an hour after the one I would have caught was also cancelled (and for some reason, although the xx:37 to Alton stops at Walton-on-Thames, the xx:07 that I could've got didn't). So I finally got to Walton an hour late. Oh and of course the trains were completely packed out with the bank holiday weekend.

Return journey a bit after 10pm - got to Waterloo to discover there were now severe delays on the Jubilee line, so I ended up with an 'interesting' route via Elephant and Castle to London Bridge.

Definitely not the kind of journey you want to repeat. But thanks everyone for all the help/advice.

Even aside from the engineering works and the bank holiday crowds making things harder than usual, you really wouldn't think it would be so hard to buy the correct ticket for what ought to be a relatively simple journey!

 

[miklcct]

When I rolled up at Abbey Wood on Sunday, the ticket office was closed and it turned out the ticket machines wouldn't sell me that ticket - they could only sell the ticket from Abbey Wood, which wouldn't let me travel via the underground.

You need to complain to TfL that you can't buy the correct ticket from a ticket machine.

 

[hkstudent]

Well, so much for getting a Zone1-4 to Walton-on-Thames ticket.... When I rolled up at Abbey Wood on Sunday, the ticket office was closed and it turned out the ticket machines wouldn't sell me that ticket - they could only sell the ticket from Abbey Wood, which wouldn't let me travel via the underground. By the time I'd faffed around trying to buy the right ticket (including a quick look on the railforums tickets site to see if they could sell me a from-zone-4 ticket - they couldn't either), I'd just missed one Elizabeth line train, and then it turned out that the next one was cancelled. Since there was a Cannon Street service due, I figured at that point it'd now be just as quick to go via London Bridge anyway, although there was no way I could get my planned 17:37 train from Waterloo.

Amazingly, from that poor start the journey got worse ... Because little did I know that there were no trains between London Bridge and Charing Cross because of engineering works (I hadn't checked because I wasn't expecting to be on that route). Headed to London Bridge tube station to try to get on the Jubilee line, on the assumption that would be an accepted alternative route - to discover the Jubilee line gateline was closed and the Northern gateline staff who would need to let me through were all currently occupied dealing with a bunch of idiot cyclists who were trying to take their bikes on the tube!!!! After some wait for that problem to be sorted, the TfL staff were fine about letting me through.

So, I finally got to Waterloo just in time to discover that the train half an hour after the one I would have caught was also cancelled (and for some reason, although the xx:37 to Alton stops at Walton-on-Thames, the xx:07 that I could've got didn't). So I finally got to Walton an hour late. Oh and of course the trains were completely packed out with the bank holiday weekend.

Return journey a bit after 10pm - got to Waterloo to discover there were now severe delays on the Jubilee line, so I ended up with an 'interesting' route via Elephant and Castle to London Bridge.

Definitely not the kind of journey you want to repeat. But thanks everyone for all the help/advice.

Even aside from the engineering works and the bank holiday crowds making things harder than usual, you really wouldn't think it would be so hard to buy the correct ticket for what ought to be a relatively simple journey!

On the “up” side, many delay repays due