Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

[pompeyfan]

It all comes down to the DfT & the 8 month long dispute. Humble pie for tea springs to mind.

Ah so it’s a case of the RMT sticking to their framework agreement. Fair enough. A case of ‘told you so!’ Don’t blame them at all, just a shame the passengers have to suffer. Will the companies come back with their tail between their legs?

 

[MatthewRead]

Some more Mk3s heading for sliding door mods then? Or maybe my joke in another thread about Mk4s coming to Anglia might not have been totally wide of the mark!

Derogation being given actually

 

[hooverboy]

Thanks for that. As they are so similar to the 755s, is it just one training course or do you have to do a separate course for 755 and 745? In the aviation world some aircraft are grouped into on "type rating" as controls and systems etc are so similar. Does this exist in railway land?
I smiled a bit at the possible retention of some hauled sets. It's just not possible to cover the service reliably (or at all?) with 10 sets. I wonder if there'll be a follow on order for some more 745s.

I would have thought it would be quite a close comparison.maybe a day or two extra training for safety measures and traction acclimatisation.
as you say, the airbus A319/320/321 Control sets are basically identical,so a pilot can basically fly any of these once trained on one of them.
Not vastly different to a 15x/17x set up.

the 745/755 is still electric traction in essence, albeit one driven directly over the wires all the time.

 

[grumblingalong]

I would have thought it would be quite a close comparison.maybe a day or two extra training for safety measures and traction acclimatisation.
as you say, the airbus A319/320/321 Control sets are basically identical,so a pilot can basically fly any of these once trained on one of them.
Not vastly different to a 15x/17x set up.

the 745/755 is still electric traction in essence, albeit one driven directly over the wires all the time.

You'd be surprised. The technology leap between a 15X/321 and a flirt is huge. Be like taking someone out of a steam traction engine and putting them in a Tesla and expecting them to make it move.

 

[ac6000cw]

Luck hasn't been on my side today... The 755 running the 12:09 Cambridge to Norwich was cancelled, and based on the NC73 diagram I wrongly assumed that the 755 would run the 20:09 Cambridge to Norwich. I saw a 2 coach 170 approaching Cambridge, and I was just gutted. Hopefully better luck another day!

A 755 did the 15:09 and 18:09 Cambridge - Norwich runs yesterday - I wasn't around to see anything later in the day. GA and Stadler are obviously very keen to keep them in traffic despite some teething troubles (418 had issues earlier in the day, but was working later on).

 

[Tim Regester]

The very best lithium ion batteries have an energy density of approx 230Wh per kg. So 20 tonnes of battery will provide 4.6MWh of storage.

Charging would be interesting. You wouldn't be able to pull more than about 5MW off the overhead, so it's going to take an hour to charge.
And that's assuming there's space for 20te of batteries, which once packaged with control electronic and thermal management is is going to take a lot of space.

FWIW, I don't believe batteries are the future for trains or cars. For sure there will be some small number of trains run on batteries, bit for lost applications it won't make economic or operational sense.

Li Ion Battery density is improving all the time. Tesla now have 300KWhKg but new developments are looking at 500KWh/Kg and even a claimed 1000KWh/Kg (the latter from a Swiss outfit Innolith) Battery density will rapidly improve as more and more research funding is applied.

As for Charging, I would have thought under rail induction charging would me suitable for bi-modes since rail has complete control over the trackbed you could have that at every station actuated when the power unit is over an induction plate.

Batteries are the way to go, for now. Hydrogen is currently much worse for CO2 emissions than battery technology (and is much less energy efficient as well) Diesel has to go (interested to find out what emissions standard the engines in FLIRTS adhere to) but maybe diesel bi-modes will hang around for a bit longer if clean enough (NOX emissions and PM emissions being the issue).

 

[mmh]

What do we do with all these batteries when they need to be replaced?

 

[dgl]

Imagine telling GA passengers that the reason why they can't have some of their nice new trains/are being delayed is because they have removed the guard from door duties, and now no-one can open the doors!, even though the guard could if they were allowed.

Now if the government could admit it was wrong and loose a bit of face then we could get this issue sorted ASAP but alas no.

 

[themiller]

What do we do with all these batteries when they need to be replaced?

There are proposals to reuse them for mains back-up otherwise they could be recycled.

 

[dgl]

What do we do with all these batteries when they need to be replaced?

Plus I wonder what is the efficiency of inductive charging? (using what is essentially an air gap transformer), not very good. Plus you put those kind of loads on to the grid and they are going to charge you a fortune and will probably require a lot of liaising between Network Rail so National Grid know when charging is about to start so they can plan accordingly.

 

[mmh]

There are proposals to reuse them for mains back-up otherwise they could be recycled.

I read a few weeks ago, in a article about battery powered cars, that there are supposedly no recycling facilities for their batteries and they're shipped abroad somewhere. If I wasn't already cynical that would have surprised me.

That's without considering the resources needed to manufacture them.

 

[mmh]

Plus I wonder what is the efficiency of inductive charging? (using what is essentially an air gap transformer), not very good.

I guess that's why we only see it for mobile phones and toothbrushes!

 

[ac6000cw]

Diesel has to go (interested to find out what emissions standard the engines in FLIRTS adhere to) but maybe diesel bi-modes will hang around for a bit longer if clean enough (NOX emissions and PM emissions being the issue).

I believe the 755 engines meet Euro IIIb emissions spec (using SCR), as per the current requirement for rail vehicles.

I could see the 755's eventually being converted to use OHLE, Diesel and battery as their energy sources i.e. two 'power pack' positions in the power car being diesel, the other two being battery packs. That would allow at least some kinetic energy recovery during braking as well.

 

[43096]

Derogation being given actually

It would be a dispensation not derogation if it was the case, actually. Do you have a source for that?

 

[LowLevel]

Ah so it’s a case of the RMT sticking to their framework agreement. Fair enough. A case of ‘told you so!’ Don’t blame them at all, just a shame the passengers have to suffer. Will the companies come back with their tail between their legs?

No, it's the company having to keep to the framework agreement they insisted upon. They can't say that the cameras are a safety system failure that requires the train to come out of service in the Defective On Train Equipment policy because of their insistence of the guard being pushed out of operational duties, and then keep a defective train in service just by having a guard on it.

They wrote it, they have to stick with it.

 

[hooverboy]

Imagine telling GA passengers that the reason why they can't have some of their nice new trains/are being delayed is because they have removed the guard from door duties, and now no-one can open the doors!, even though the guard could if they were allowed.

Now if the government could admit it was wrong and loose a bit of face then we could get this issue sorted ASAP but alas no.

at risk of being facetious, the response from said GA customer will be "well why doesn't the driver do it then?"

 

[hooverboy]

What do we do with all these batteries when they need to be replaced?

Well provided the cells aren't completely shot to bits ,I would have thought they might still be able to provide emergency storage /deployment where backup generators are currently used.

they would only be cycled perhaps a couple of times per year.

certainly if you had something like a semiconductor processing fab plant a power cut can really screw up the environmental conditions required, and potentially cost millions of pounds because of faulty/contaminated/incorrectly manufactured chips.Even for a couple of seconds that it takes from power going down to back up going online.

the same can be said of most laboratories.

 

[Tim Regester]

What do we do with all these batteries when they need to be replaced?

That's a gnarly old myth. So old EV batteries are generally used for Battery arrays for storing energy, for homes, for business and for balancing the electric grid. But EV batteries look to have improved so they will last as long as the rest of the car, maybe longer. Sure early EV batteries had some issues, they have been solved. Reusing EV batteries is no normal, replacement is very much the exception and certainly not the norm.


The same would be true for batteries in bi-modes.

 

[hooverboy]

That's a gnarly old myth. So old EV batteries are generally used for Battery arrays for storing energy, for homes, for business and for balancing the electric grid. But EV batteries look to have improved so they will last as long as the rest of the car, maybe longer. Sure early EV batteries had some issues, they have been solved. Reusing EV batteries is no normal, replacement is very much the exception and certainly not the norm.


The same would be true for batteries in bi-modes.

the vivarail powerwall!!
coming to a home near you.

 

[mmh]

That's a gnarly old myth. So old EV batteries are generally used for Battery arrays for storing energy, for homes, for business and for balancing the electric grid. But EV batteries look to have improved so they will last as long as the rest of the car, maybe longer. Sure early EV batteries had some issues, they have been solved. Reusing EV batteries is no normal, replacement is very much the exception and certainly not the norm.


The same would be true for batteries in bi-modes.

If that's the case, why do car manufacturers give battery warrantees like 5 years / 100,000 miles / 60,000 miles?

 

[hooverboy]

If that's the case, why do car manufacturers give battery warrantees like 5 years / 100,000 miles / 60,000 miles?

that's basically specified by the battery manufacturer as to what ought to be minimum servicable life before any degradation occurs.

it should cover the duration of a typical number of charge/discharge cycles a battery can fulfil with about 90% of it's original capability.
an OEM would expect a small-ish return rate of 1-2% not being able to meet this specification.

the battery is still expected to operate in some capacity between 60-90% of original function after this date, but performance will drop away over time.
in the case of lead acid batteries the electrodes get eaten away and the sulphuric acid becomes less acidic( sulphate ions in the acid bond with lead/copper .Copper electrodes give copper sulphate-the blue/green stuff you see over the terminal sometimes.)

 

[Tim Regester]

that's basically specified by the battery manufacturer as to what ought to be minimum servicable life before any degradation occurs.

it should cover the duration of a typical number of charge/discharge cycles a battery can fulfil with about 90% of it's original capability.
an OEM would expect a small-ish return rate of 1-2% not being able to meet this specification.

the battery is still expected to operate in some capacity between 60-90% of original function after this date, but performance will drop away over time.
in the case of lead acid batteries the electrodes get eaten away and the sulphuric acid becomes less acidic( sulphate ions in the acid bond with lead/copper .Copper electrodes give copper sulphate-the blue/green stuff you see over the terminal sometimes.)

Warranty times are going up all the time as real world experience of Battery life reveals itself. There are some remarkable examples, a Honk Kong Taxi Driver clocking up over 500,000km in a Tesla Minicab for example.

Also remember Battery Tech is improving, solid state batteries, Graphene batteries, super-capacitors, a bewildering number of developments, there are Youtube channels like Fully Charged covering these developments. I did laugh the other day when the local Councillor supposedly developing Environmental policy claimed BEVs were no solution because of the Lead in the batteries, when there is no lead in a normal Li Ion Battery. (She was right, in that replacing ICEVs with BEVs is no solution, but because we should be getting people to switch to bike, bus and rail, not due to technology).

 

[Tug]

I am tall but manage with virtually all stock on British railways but I have had my first ride on a Stadler (Norwich to Great Yarmouth) & I was generally impressed except for one critical shortcoming. There is no leg room. The dent in the back of the seat in front is not wide enough for both my knees so I have one with nowhere to go. Aisle seat with knee across the aisle is the only answer.

 

[Tim Regester]

I just checked, a Tesla Model 3 has a 4 year 50,000 mile warranty on the vehicle but an 8 year 120,000 mile warranty on the battery and drive train. They expect the battery to outlive the car.

 

[ashkeba]

I am tall but manage with virtually all stock on British railways but I have had my first ride on a Stadler (Norwich to Great Yarmouth) & I was generally impressed except for one critical shortcoming. There is no leg room. The dent in the back of the seat in front is not wide enough for both my knees so I have one with nowhere to go. Aisle seat with knee across the aisle is the only answer.

No table seats or sideways facing seats left? I suspect trains are designed for most of the seats to be average and only a few exceptions for others.

 

[trebor79]

There are table seats (a fair few actually).

 

[Tug]

The train was packed - yes really as it was a bank holiday Friday. I was lucky to get a seat at all & there were people standing. It was a good job that it wasn't a single car unit that gets used periodically!!!

Possibly there are sideways seats and there are definitely table seats but they seem to fill up first.

I could sit in all the seats on the existing trains. Why has every new train since the compartment days reduced seat comfort from the last generation?

Do the long distance trains have the same seat pitch?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am tall but manage with virtually all stock on British railways but I have had my first ride on a Stadler (Norwich to Great Yarmouth) & I was generally impressed except for one critical shortcoming. There is no leg room. The dent in the back of the seat in front is not wide enough for both my knees so I have one with nowhere to go. Aisle seat with knee across the aisle is the only answer.

I doubt it's worse than the Class 153, but the "dint in the middle" approach (also used on the original Class 158 seats) doesn't work for me either. It's fine for tall, skinny people, but for tall people with cyclist's/rugby player's legs (if you see what I mean) it doesn't because I physically can't sit with my knees that close together.

That is a downside of the FISA LEAN seat which is otherwise quite good. I think the design of the seat used on the Class 175/180 is better in that the supporting pillar is in the middle so it's designed to have a "dint" on each side near the armrest, which is better for the majority of tall males at least.

It's also an upside (what, there is one? ) of the Fainsa Sophia, though it isn't quite as pronounced on those.

 

[dk1]

Plenty of Stadler activity around Norwich tonight. Two bimodes where undergoing fuelling then another (presumably off the Cambridge) arrived on the reception. Then leaving for Ipswich at 2305 an IC unit was waiting a path over Trowse Bridge followed a couple of minutes later by yet another bimode.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Anyone know why one section of the floor is raised?