Accounting for Permits to Travel.

[Mutant Lemming]

I would imagine there is a record of each PTT that is issued from a machine and records of those exchanged for tickets but how do TOC's account for those that are issued but aren't exchanged for tickets ? They will gain some income from them but do they assume that there would be a lost income too in the form of an uncollected fare ?
I could see it being almost impossible to determine if a PTT is bought by somone who collects them, someone intending to travel who changes their mind and doesn't travel or someone who does travel and avoids the fare.
Do TOC's consider them as income gained or income lost ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would imagine there is a record of each PTT that is issued from a machine....

You would imagine that wouldn't you, and I confess I haven't had to account for PTT machine takings for about a decade, so things might have moved on, but when I dealt with them, there was no record of PTTs issued, just how much money the machine took and possibly how much PTT stock has been ordered for the stations that have them.

....and records of those exchanged for tickets but how do TOC's account for those that are issued but aren't exchanged for tickets ? They will gain some income from them but do they assume that there would be a lost income too in the form of an uncollected fare ?
I could see it being almost impossible to determine if a PTT is bought by somone who collects them, someone intending to travel who changes their mind and doesn't travel or someone who does travel and avoids the fare.
Do TOC's consider them as income gained or income lost ?

The only TOCS I can think of that I know have PTT machines in use are those with Penalty Fares schemes in place, so the potential loss will probably be accounted for in that rather than a solitary figure.

 

[thelem]

You would imagine that wouldn't you, and I confess I haven't had to account for PTT machine takings for about a decade, so things might have moved on, but when I dealt with them, there was no record of PTTs issued, just how much money the machine took and possibly how much PTT stock has been ordered for the stations that have them.

I doubt things have moved on. My impression is that PTT machines are deliberately simple so they are cheap to install at stations that don't warrent more expensive ticket purchasing facilities. Rather than introduce a more advanced PTT machine capable of record keeping, they can now install internet-connected ticket machines that can sell you the actual ticket.

 

[causton]

When was the last time a PTT machine was actually installed, can anyone tell me/guess? I'm guessing nowhere would have one installed these days and a TVM would be installed...!

 

[Muzer]

At one point I saw something that looked suspiciously like a PTT machine hacked into a parking permit machine. At Micheldever I believe. Is this what it is or is the look just deceiving? (Or am I completely crazy and forgetting what they even look like )

 

[Lrd]

At one point I saw something that looked suspiciously like a PTT machine hacked into a parking permit machine. At Micheldever I believe. Is this what it is or is the look just deceiving? (Or am I completely crazy and forgetting what they even look like )

They do look a little like the car park ticket machines yes.

Essentially it is; coins in, press button and out pops a ticket.

 

[Clip]

When you empty one a couple get printed to tell you how much it has taken since it was last opened wand how much it has taken - these are sequentially numbered to tally up with the last time the machine was emptied.

 

[W-on-Sea]

At one point I saw something that looked suspiciously like a PTT machine hacked into a parking permit machine. At Micheldever I believe. Is this what it is or is the look just deceiving? (Or am I completely crazy and forgetting what they even look like )

Yes, there certainly are former PTT machines now used a parking permit machines. Some of the c2c stations have had them for starters - outside the north entrance to Westcliff is one I recall.

 

[2Dogbox]

When was the last time a PTT machine was actually installed, can anyone tell me/guess? I'm guessing nowhere would have one installed these days and a TVM would be installed...!

They were introduced on the Ivanhoe lines stations of Barrow on Soar, Sileby and Syston near Leicester about 2 years ago. There is also one at Attenborough.

I had to deal with loads of the things last night as people were boarding my train going for a night in Leicester clutching little Pertis tickets. Most people shove 10p in, although I did have one bloke the other day put £5 in for a £2.20 single which meant change from me.

The passengers are always confused as to what the point of them is. When I used to work in Birmingham they had them on if booking offices were closed, but on the Ivanhoe the stations are unstaffed anyway so they seem a bit pointless.

They are added up as and paid in with cash at the end of the shift. I think the booking office then send them to accounts.

 

[Quorn Chris]

Hi, I'm a Senior Conductor with EMT, PTT machines are installed at Syston, Sileby, Barrow Upon Soar, Attenborough, Spondon and Duffield. A permit to travel is is valid for two hours from the time of issue, after which it becomes worthless if not used in part payment for a ticket within the two hours. We usually advise customers to put as small an amount of change in the PTT machine as possible, as you are losing money if there is disruption and the next two trains are cancelled....
As far as I'm aware thee isn't a method of keeping record of PTT's issued, but they all have a number on them and time and station issued at.

 

[DelayRepay]

We usually advise customers to put as small an amount of change in the PTT machine as possible, as you are losing money if there is disruption and the next two trains are cancelled....

Surely the passenger would be entitled to use their PTT on the next available service, or to claim a refund if there was disruption? What would occur if they boarded a train which was delayed en-route and because of the delay the guard wasn't in a position to sell tickets? This seems a very unfair rule.

I thought the "official" rule was that you were supposed to put in change to as close to the value of the ticket as possible?

 

[Quorn Chris]

Yes it is unfair. It's an unfair world
PTT is only valid for two hours, if its not exchanged in part payment for a ticket within the two hours then it becomes worthless. If the guard can't sell the PTT holder a ticket then that person would be expected to buy themselves a ticket using the PTT at the next available station with ticket retail facilities, providing that it's done within the 2 hour timeframe.
Not really possible for somebody to put in change as close to the value of their ticket if they either don't have enough change or they're unaware of the price of the ticket they're going to buy...
As far as refunds for a PTT go, a PTT is not a travel ticket so it's not refundable, as it is supposed to be given in part payment toward a travel ticket at the earliest opportunity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I always tell my passengers to put as little change as possible in the Pertis machine, if they put a lot of money in and there's loads of disruption and cancellations then they have lost that money as a PTT isn't refundable.

 

[A Totemic Knot]

No Pertis machine that I'm familiar with keeps a record of tickets issued - just the total amount of cash emptied. It's probably possible to work out the average value per ticket issued, but it's probably not worth the effort.

As for the 2-hour rule, it's there to stop people taking the mick, the accepted practise is that the ticket is apex changed at the earliest opportunity. If a passenger is unable to travel due to disruption after buying a Pertis ticket, and is unable to use it within a reasonable time (certainly the same day) then a letter to Customer Relations will do the trick, I'm sure.

 

[DelayRepay]

Can you please point to where this "2 hour" rule appears in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage?

The requirement is to buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity. If that opportunity is more than two hours after the PTT was purchased then so be it. Good luck taking action against a passenger who cannot purchase a ticket because they've put part of their fare into the PTT machine (as instructed) and then through no fault of their own don't have an opportunity to purchase a ticket for >2 hours.

 

[Quorn Chris]

It says quite clearly on every PTT issued 'valid for two hours from time shown'

 

[Scotty]

But surely you only get to see that, having already paid for it?

 

[Quorn Chris]

Get to see what?

 

[Scotty]

That the permit says "valid for two hours from time shown"

 

[Quorn Chris]

I'm reasonably certain it also explains that on the actual Pertis machine as well.

 

[DelayRepay]

In which case it contradicts the NRCOC and the NRCOC take precident.

What would you do if you encountered a passenger, during disruption, who had a PTT timed 2 hours and 10 minutes ago. You are aware that the train service is hourly, the previous train was cancelled, your train is running 45 minutes late and you weren't able to check tickets until 30 minutes after the passenger boarded? She wants a cheap day return with a railcard discount. The ticket costs £4. She offers you £2 cash and a £2 PTT. You reject the PTT. She has no other cash on her so cannot pay the fare. What is the correct course of action?

 

[Quorn Chris]

If they boarded the train before the two hours then the PTT is still valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Before the two hours is up I meant...

 

[DelayRepay]

OK, so it's the boarding of the train that matters rather than when they first had an opportunity to purchase a ticket?

What if the line was a 2 hourly service, the first train broke down blocking the line just outside the station and the service didn't start again for 3 hours. Does the customer lose their money in that case, even if they bought the PTT before the incident occured? And bearing in mind that PTT stations are typically small so might not have as much as a departure board to warn of trouble.

 

[Quorn Chris]

It would mostly be the train guard's discretion, and as I'm not in the habit of creating confrontation and irritating my customers I would generally go with issuing them a ticket and taking the PTT as a part payment, unless you're like the man on my train a few months back who had a PTT from Attenborough dated the day before, the guard hadn't done any tickets after he boarded, and neither did he go via the ticket office at Nottingham on arrival, but he still expected me to take the expired PTT as part payment more than 30 hours after it was issued.....
I can't think of anywhere in a PTT/penalty fare area that has a 2 hourly service, and I would imagine that the help points and PA systems would alert any passengers to any disruption to services, in which case it would be your own fault for ignoring announcements and still putting your money in the Pertis machine. And I would imagine that if there were no CIS or PA then that customer would indeed have lost their money if they had to wait for 3 hours for a train.

 

[DelayRepay]

I can't think of anywhere in a PTT/penalty fare area that has a 2 hourly service, and I would imagine that the help points and PA systems would alert any passengers to any disruption to services, in which case it would be your own fault for ignoring announcements and still putting your money in the Pertis machine. And I would imagine that if there were no CIS or PA then that customer would indeed have lost their money if they had to wait for 3 hours for a train.

I'm only playing devil's advocate but what if the passenger was disabled and therefore unable to hear the announcements (which may or may not be made anyway). If you're saying discretion would normally be used then that's good.

I completely agree that the man shouldn't have been able to use the PTT from the previous day! Unless of course he bought it before the last train of the night, which was then cancelled, and decided to travel the next morning instead

 

[Quorn Chris]

He claimed he bought the PTT on his way to work the previous morning, which was supported by the time printed on it, he refused to pay so I chucked him off at Beeston, the stop previous to Attenborough. I have it on good authority that its a pleasant walk

 

[DelayRepay]

It is a shame you couldn't charge him for the previous day's ticket as well!

 

[Quorn Chris]

Well he refused to pay again, and its not enough time to mess around with an UPFN, so 'off' is the only course of action! And off he went!

 

[paul1609]

It would mostly be the train guard's discretion, and as I'm not in the habit of creating confrontation and irritating my customers I would generally go with issuing them a ticket and taking the PTT as a part payment, unless you're like the man on my train a few months back who had a PTT from Attenborough dated the day before, the guard hadn't done any tickets after he boarded, and neither did he go via the ticket office at Nottingham on arrival, but he still expected me to take the expired PTT as part payment more than 30 hours after it was issued.....
I can't think of anywhere in a PTT/penalty fare area that has a 2 hourly service, and I would imagine that the help points and PA systems would alert any passengers to any disruption to services, in which case it would be your own fault for ignoring announcements and still putting your money in the Pertis machine. And I would imagine that if there were no CIS or PA then that customer would indeed have lost their money if they had to wait for 3 hours for a train.

in theory Three Oaks, Doleham and Winchelsea are in a Penalty Fare Area.All have a 2 hourly or less service. in practice it would be so unusual for someone to get on at those stations

 

[Quorn Chris]

Sponson also has an infrequent service, morning and evening trains only, but its still a PF station. I suppose most people old have the sense to check the timetable first at such stations before making a wasted journey to catch a train that doesn't exist.

 

[AlexS]

Having used one of the ex Centro PTT machines London Midland dotted around it's local stations outside of the Centro area a few years ago, the numbers only go so far - I noticed they'd been reset to zero several times over so there's no 'unique' identifier to them.