• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Accused of disorderly behaviour. Now received SJPN.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
9 Sep 2022
Messages
57
Location
MAN
Thankyou and at the risk of outstaying my welcome your hope that we are better than this, that the right thing actually matters, does resonate with so many of us. It impacts us too. If it isn’t our family now then it will be our family later.

I wish you all the best whether we can help more directly or not.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
He is speaking to the welfare/legal people at his university tomorrow. I have also emailed various voluntary law services to ask for advice.

He has without a doubt committed an offence but he wasn’t aware he was breaking a law. I just feel a caution would have been better. I’ve seen white kids do so much worse at the station and they get nothing more than a dirty look by my brown skinned child gets a flipping court summons.

I understand, legally at least, it’s pretty much an open and shut case. He broke a law but is our country in such a sad state that the right thing no longer matters?

The difficulty is that the law doesn’t work in this way. It simply looks at whether or not an offence was committed, and if Nexus wish to prosecute on what is a strict liability offence then that’s their prerogative, and providing the case stacks up then whether others do or don’t get prosecuted for same, or whether the defendant was aware they were committing an offence, isn’t relevant.

Having said that, I don’t see much public interest in Nexus pursuing this so long as the facts are as described. It would be interesting to know how many people have been prosecuted by Nexus for this or similar offences. FOI request?
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,580
Location
Reading
On the settlement point, as I understand things, only the court can impose a penalty - it's not for anyone else to usurp the court's role. In situations where a party has made a loss due to a crime, the court might also decide to award compensation intended to put that party back into the financial position it would have been in had the crime not been committed. In railway fare evasion cases that would typically mean paying for evaded fares. So a practice has evolved whereby some rail companies may agree not to prosecute fare evasion in return for receiving compensation that 'undoes' the direct financial effect of the crime on them. It's a fine line to tread. Police can use cautions but private prosecutors cannot and so these "out of court settlements" fill a similar gap (as do penalty fares).

There's an extreme example of someone asking for money to avoid a private prosecution mentioned in this judgement:
11. ... In the second paragraph they observed that the request for £30,000.00 (Thirty Thousand Pounds) in return for agreement not to commence a private prosecution was tantamount to blackmail. It might not be blackmail, but it certainly would have rendered the agreement unenforceable on public policy grounds.

You can read how Northern's lawyers justified their out-of-court settlements for fare evasion in this FOI request - see documents 3 and 4b where they go to some lengths to say that their settlements contain no element of penalty or profit even though they use the word 'penalty' which is 'a little unfortunate' they say. (But notice how they still avoid the issue of direct cost versus average cost, on which I would suggest they were still vulnerable as their own sort of victim surcharge.)
 
Last edited:
Joined
9 Sep 2022
Messages
57
Location
MAN
The difficulty is that the law doesn’t work in this way. It simply looks at whether or not an offence was committed, and if Nexus wish to prosecute on what is a strict liability offence then that’s their prerogative, and providing the case stacks up then whether others do or don’t get prosecuted for same, or whether the defendant was aware they were committing an offence, isn’t relevant.

Having said that, I don’t see much public interest in Nexus pursuing this so long as the facts are as described. It would be interesting to know how many people have been prosecuted by Nexus for this or similar offences. FOI request?
Interesting. What this underscores I think is that the complaint is sufficiently susceptible to difficulty that a good defense will identify those weak points and cause enough pain for the plaintiff to simply give up.

They can’t possibly care whether or not they succeed in any individual case.

It isn’t personal.

They just want enough cheap wins.
 
Last edited:

rs101

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2013
Messages
314
The difficulty is that the law doesn’t work in this way. It simply looks at whether or not an offence was committed, and if Nexus wish to prosecute on what is a strict liability offence then that’s their prerogative, and providing the case stacks up then whether others do or don’t get prosecuted for same, or whether the defendant was aware they were committing an offence, isn’t relevant.

Having said that, I don’t see much public interest in Nexus pursuing this so long as the facts are as described. It would be interesting to know how many people have been prosecuted by Nexus for this or similar offences. FOI request?

Agreed, it doesn't affect the fact an offence was committed or not, but if the media start asking questions about it (let alone if a white child comes forward to say they just got told off for running up the escalator), then the negative PR for Nexus is massive.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
7,197
He is speaking to the welfare/legal people at his university tomorrow. I have also emailed various voluntary law services to ask for advice.

Hopefully that will be of help - I would expect them to have seen many similar cases (if not exactly the same 'offence' perhaps) ands alongside the advice here, give you an informed opinion on a best course of action that you can weigh up. If they can help further in practical terms - eg help pursue the case - then of course so much the better.

Good luck with it and best wishes.
 

Sprinter107

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2019
Messages
935
Hope all goes well for you. It should never have got this far. A quick "please don't do that on the escalator, as you may injure yourself or someone else " should have sufficed. I'm sure there are much worse things that happen on the Metro that should be taken to court and never are.
I actually didn't know it was against bylaws either. A couple of years ago, at New Street, Id just stepped on the escalator to go and work my train, and realised I'd forgotten something, and did exactly the same as your son.
Please let us know how you get on.
 

Faf

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2023
Messages
22
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Thankyou and at the risk of outstaying my welcome your hope that we are better than this, that the right thing actually matters, does resonate with so many of us. It impacts us too. If it isn’t our family now then it will be our family later.

I wish you all the best whether we can help more directly or not.
Thank you. The help here has been phenomenal.

So we’ve heard back from the legal department after last nights email. Took them less than 24 hours to reply. Yet they took a whole month to contact my son and accuse him of disorderly behaviour. A whole flipping month, by which stage any CCTV no longer exists.

Also heard back from the head of nexus. Apparently he now has a better understanding of the incident and cannot step in to the process taking place. A better understanding of what exactly? An impulsive 19 yr going up a few steps to go help his friend?

You seriously cannot make this crap up. The level of petty and stupidity is just crazy
 
Last edited:

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
Apparently he now has a better understanding of the incident and cannot step in to the process taking place.
Yes, the MD of Nexus cannot control his own legal department. What hogwash... :rolleyes:
 

Faf

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2023
Messages
22
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
So we’ll be taking legal advice and start working on his plea. We will fight this, even if it’s not the outcome we’d like.

I really can’t thank you all enough, you have all been so incredibly helpful. A few days a go we were a mess but we now have a much better understanding of where we stand. Thank you all very much.

Also, excuse me while I revert to being a petty 10 yr old,
I hope the agent who stopped him and the solicitor who signed off on this get horrid constipation.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
Good luck with it.

Remember there are strict deadlines for responding to the SJPN and if missed then the defendant is very likely to be found guilty in his absence, and they would assume a default weekly income of (from memory) £440 when working out how much to fine him.
 

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
The CEO may be saying "My conversation with the legal department has given me a better understanding of the incident than your communication did". Combined with the legal department response which is similar to "see you in court", that might mean they think there are specific reasons for pursuing the case.

The legal advice you get could include comments on this idea:

Your son could write,

"Please disclose all evidence [perhaps add "and arguments"] that this is more than a technical breach requiring more than an absolute discharge".

The legal advice might clarify whether that is appropriate, and whether there could be costs implications of the request.

Something which could be relevant is this:

The documentation which we saw says they will seek £120 costs if your son pleads guilty - but doesn't say the costs could rise if the case goes to a full hearing (rather than being dealt with by a single justice). This may be related to the fact that the heading for that page wrongly says "Summons", which would be to a full hearing in the first place. Perhaps other parts of the documentation do say the costs could rise. The legal advice might clarify whether Nexus could be awarded higher costs despite implying on that page that the costs would not be more than £120 after a guilty plea (at least, that seems to me the natural meaning).
 
Last edited:

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
The MD can step in but in this case he is choosing not to is how i read that.

I’d say companies do need to be wary of director-level staff getting too involved in processes. It is kind of correct to trust their own company policies, which seems to be what he is implying.

My work does get this sort of thing with staff management issues, and generally the default response will be “follow the established process”, though that doesn’t mean words haven’t been had behind the scenes.

Nonetheless I remain of the view this doesn’t reflect particularly well on Nexus if the facts are as described.
 

Bertie the bus

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
2,791
So my son has just sent an email to metro legal setting out what exactly happened. He’s printing it out and I’ll be posting a copy too.

I DM’d the head at nexus last night and in anger & frustration mentioned going to the chronicle. He’s not best pleased, think I may have screwed up my chances there!
I’m not surprised that e-mail upset him. It’s terrible. I have to admit I have sent similar to companies I have felt aggrieved by in the past but only when I was 100% in the right and not 100% in the wrong as your son was. How did you expect an MD to react to you claiming one of his employees is untrustworthy and dishonest and his company has behaved in an unscrupulous and immoral way?

I would also caution against getting the local rag involved. You have to bear in mind that the sort of sentiment shown on threads like this doesn’t always represent the majority view. Do you want people you know thinking your son is unruly?

Whatever course of action you intend to take in the future I would advise before you say or send anything to draft it, wait a few hours to calm down, re-read it and ask yourself will this help or does it just look like an angry rant?
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,259
Location
No longer here
It is true that most of Britain has brain worms regarding Making Everything A Crime - just look at the enthusiasm for lockdown and snitching. Nonetheless I think most people would be surprised to know that it is literally illegal to walk up a down escalator on the railway and even more surprised to find out the train company can prosecute you privately in the courts for it.
 

Faf

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2023
Messages
22
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
I’m not surprised that e-mail upset him. It’s terrible. I have to admit I have sent similar to companies I have felt aggrieved by in the past but only when I was 100% in the right and not 100% in the wrong as your son was. How did you expect an MD to react to you claiming one of his employees is untrustworthy and dishonest and his company has behaved in an unscrupulous and immoral way?

I would also caution against getting the local rag involved. You have to bear in mind that the sort of sentiment shown on threads like this doesn’t always represent the majority view. Do you want people you know thinking your son is unruly?

Whatever course of action you intend to take in the future I would advise before you say or send anything to draft it, wait a few hours to calm down, re-read it and ask yourself will this help or does it just look like an angry rant?
How was my son 100% in the wrong?
Unruly? This kid has never spoken a word in anger. Everyone who knows him has only nice things to say about him.

Do I want people I know thinking my son is unruly? Seriously? Thankfully I don’t associate with judgmental busybodies but if I did? I don’t give a flipping toss what other people think. I know my child.

According to nexus own laws, yes, he has committed an offence but their reaction is unnecessarily petty. He went up a few steps to help a friend stuck behind the barriers. Their agent has made it sound like he ran up the whole escalator. Is that not dishonest? It’s ok when those in power are dishonest and general ****s but when it’s the average joe, who did nothing more than go up a few flipping steps, we’re expected to lie on the floor so they can walk all over us?!

This is what wrong with our country. The level of stupidity is unreal. You can beat someone black & blue and be let off with a slapped wrist but help your friend? No, that’s serious, he must be prosecuted.

You don’t know my child so please don’t make flipping assumptions about him.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,161
Yes, the MD of Nexus cannot control his own legal department. What hogwash... :rolleyes:
Absolutely. Time to make his life utterly miserable by involving the media, your MP, your councillor, the ADHD Foundation and of course ensuring that they all go to the media. I'm sure that the hours of his life that he will never get back as a consequence will feel well worth it. Don't get mad get even! Make it really hurt the arrogant complacent clown...

Having worked in Central Government for years l know that there is nothing worse than the local big fish in a small pond.... I know even more how much they really hate their true importance being starkly exposed by a really big fish....
 
Last edited:

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,580
Location
Reading
Another detail that they might still need to fill in
30. Name and address
(i) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
(ii) The authorised person shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms.
 

simonw

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
799
I’m not surprised that e-mail upset him. It’s terrible. I have to admit I have sent similar to companies I have felt aggrieved by in the past but only when I was 100% in the right and not 100% in the wrong as your son was. How did you expect an MD to react to you claiming one of his employees is untrustworthy and dishonest and his company has behaved in an unscrupulous and immoral way?

I would also caution against getting the local rag involved. You have to bear in mind that the sort of sentiment shown on threads like this doesn’t always represent the majority view. Do you want people you know thinking your son is unruly?

Whatever course of action you intend to take in the future I would advise before you say or send anything to draft it, wait a few hours to calm down, re-read it and ask yourself will this help or does it just look like an angry rant?
I tend to agree.

I think the offence of walking up a down escalator should not be going before a court.

However, my reading of the MDs reply based on seeing similar from organisations I've worked for is "having talked to my legal department, I believe the facts are not as you state them".


I would urge caution.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
However, my reading of the MDs reply based on seeing similar from organisations I've worked for is "having talked to my legal department, I believe the facts are not as you state them".

That was certainly how I read them. That is, that the MD has quite possibly had the security bod's manager interview them and they are alleging something other than the account on here, e.g. that the lad ran up the whole escalator, his friend wasn't there at the top or perhaps he was abusive.

I'd certainly say, given this, to make it very clear to the son that lying to a Court is a very, very serious matter indeed, and thus if the story he's telling isn't quite the truth (which is possible) then now is the time to come clean, because if he did lie to the Court and was found out he could be found guilty of other far more serious offences such as contempt which can carry a prison sentence, and because changing the story on the day would not be looked upon kindly. If this is the case, pleading guilty is probably the best option, particularly as a Byelaw offence doesn't carry a record as such.

It might be that he said something he didn't consider to be consequential, such as a dismissive "oh, f*** off", which has been considered to be abuse, perhaps?

It might also be that the security guard is about to commit the same offence of lying!

It's bizarre, to be honest, that if a misconduct offence is being alleged in this way, that the CCTV and any bodycam footage isn't automatically retained, as that would be totally conclusive.
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,330
However, my reading of the MDs reply based on seeing similar from organisations I've worked for is "having talked to my legal department, I believe the facts are not as you state them".
To be honest, reading through their responses it feels like something is missing. I agree with you that reading between the lines it feels like the MD is saying "I can see why they're taking the action and agree with it, so won't interfere". From what the OP is saying on here, it sounds ridiculous that this has reached this point and they still want to proceed. I just wonder if Nexus know something the OP doesn't, or something has gone wrong in communication somewhere. Particularly without professional representation I would probably urge caution over going all-out against Nexus until you know exactly what they hold.

Of course, Nexus could just be being completely unreasonable.

It's bizarre, to be honest, that if a misconduct offence is being alleged in this way, that the CCTV and any bodycam footage isn't automatically retained, as that would be totally conclusive.
Reading through the posts I note bodyworn footage hasn't been mentioned (so may still exist) and it's entirely possible CCTV has actually been retained and whoever the OP spoke to either didn't know the particulars of this case or was mistaken.
 

rg177

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
3,729
Location
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Bodyworn footage usually needs to be downloaded within a certain period of time else it'll just get overwritten - I doubt it'll still exist now.

That is, unless something kicked off as a result of the incident in which case the agent might have recorded it and requested it be downloaded. If events transpired as the OP says, I doubt any recording would have ever been made.

Anything like abusive behaviour, if that's the line they want to take, should be on the witness statement - and it isn't.
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,103
Location
Powys
I would suggest that going to the Press, as some are suggesting, might not be the best move, especially considering the response by the CEO. There does appear to,be more to this than we are being told.
 

Enthusiast

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
1,130
Your son could write,

"Please disclose all evidence [perhaps add "and arguments"] that this is more than a technical breach requiring more than an absolute discharge".

The legal advice might clarify whether that is appropriate, and whether there could be costs implications of the request.

Something which could be relevant is this:

The documentation which we saw says they will seek £120 costs if your son pleads guilty - but doesn't say the costs could rise if the case goes to a full hearing (rather than being dealt with by a single justice). This may be related to the fact that the heading for that page wrongly says "Summons", which would be to a full hearing in the first place. Perhaps other parts of the documentation do say the costs could rise. The legal advice might clarify whether Nexus could be awarded higher costs despite implying on that page that the costs would not be more than £120 after a guilty plea (at least, that seems to me the natural meaning).
The defendant is entitled only to the evidence the prosecution intends to rely on to secure a conviction. If he believes there is anything else upon which they do not intend to rely he must ask the court to order its disclosure. He will have to say why he wants it and that usually means he must explain how he believes it will either assist his defence or undermine the prosecution.

The costs should cover a guilty plea, whether it is dealt with under the SJ procedure or by a hearing in the normal Magistrates' Court. Costs will almost certainly increase if the matter has to be prepared for trial. The award (or not) of costs is entirely at the court's discretion.

Now that the request for leniency to Nexus has seemingly fallen on deaf ears, this becomes somewhat more straightforward. Your son faces a charge in court and has been provided with the evidence that Nexus intend to rely on. The offence is quite tightly framed and seems to fit what he has accepted he did. He can either plead guilty or not guilty. The statement of the Nexus officer is succinct and to the point. It is also quite benign and makes no mention of any behaviour other than going the wrong way on the escalator. If your son decides to defend the matter he will have to object to the officer's statement being accepted by the court and instead request his attendance to give evidence in person. There will, of course, be nothing to prevent the prosecution from teasing some elaboration from him as he gives his evidence. Your son will have the opportunity to cross-examine him in an effort to cast doubt on his evidence (and reading the statement, even an experienced lawyer may have difficulty with that, especially as it concurs with his own version).

At the moment it seems all avenues to have the court action discontinued have failed so the question of the triviality of the offence will only be addressed in court when it comes to sentencing. The protestations concerning that triviality are possibly justified, but he is where he is - facing court action - and those protestations are unlikely to assist.

I would add this: it is not entirely unheard of for parents to be provided with a "santised" version of events from a child when issues like this arise. It's admirable that the you have unconditionally accepted what your son has told you. But you should be aware that the court may not.
 

Faf

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2023
Messages
22
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
When I first phoned them up I asked that any CCTV footage be retained but apparently it had already been deleted at that time.

The facts are exactly as I’ve stated. He did not swear and was not aggressive. I have contacted both my MP and the chronicle. I would not have done that if I thought for a second my son was in the wrong. He’s a lazy bugger but rude, aggressive or unruly he is not.

He’s never been in trouble of any kind. I truly hope they do have some kind of footage because that will just prove my sons and his friends version of events.

Just want to say thank you to all those who have helped. I won’t be replying to anymore posts. I’m just repeating the same thing.

I trust my child implicitly, I know what he is and is not capable of. I don’t need to justify that to anyone. Thank you again to those that helped.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top