Advance ticket on a cancelled train

[Vespa]

As mentioned I was in Lime St yesterday and noticed quite a few cancelled Avanti trains which provoked a thought that if your advance ticket is booked for a cancelled train.

What's the policy ? Can you use it on the next train, can you also claim it back under delay repay and in the most extreme sitiation a jobs worth ticket inspector demanding you pay for another ticket, is there a chapter and verse of railway conditions of carriage you can use ?

 

[hexagon789]

As mentioned I was in Lime St yesterday and noticed quite a few cancelled Avanti trains which provoked a thought that if your advance ticket is booked for a cancelled train.

What's the policy ? Can you use it on the next train, can you also claim it back under delay repay and in the most extreme sitiation a jobs worth ticket inspector demanding you pay for another ticket, is there a chapter and verse of railway conditions of carriage you can use ?

You are allowed to take the next available service to complete your journey.

 

[Starmill]

You can rely on the Advance ticket terms & conditions:

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

That's very vague unfortunately. In reality most train operators will tell you which alternative services you can use.

You can claim compensation if your journey is delayed by a qualifying time.

 

[XAM2175]

What's the policy ? Can you use it on the next train, can you also claim it back under delay repay and in the most extreme sitiation a jobs worth ticket inspector demanding you pay for another ticket, is there a chapter and verse of railway conditions of carriage you can use ?

You are allowed to take the next available service to complete your journey.

You have an automatic right to travel on the next available service that complies with the TOC and route restrictions applicable to your ticket. You may alternately elect to abandon your travel, return to your origin station if you are part-way through a journey, and claim a refund from the original retailer of your ticket. If you do elect to continue your journey you are entitled to claim Delay Repay based on the overall delay to your journey.

If you arrive in good time for your cancelled service you will usually be permitted to travel on an earlier service that complies with your ticket restrictions, but this is not an automatic right.

If complying with the TOC and route restrictions of your ticket would cause you considerable delay, you may seek an endorsement waiving some or all of the conditions from a suitable member of staff, but this is not an automatic right.

If complying with the TOC and route restrictions of your ticket would cause you to be stranded (ie, unable to complete your journey), you are entitled to seek the reasonable assistance of any TOC that is able to help you complete you journey. This is a right expressly provided by the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[island]

You are definitely entitled to:

1. Take the next available service to your destination run by the same train company as the service you were booked to use. If this arrives more than the requisite number of minutes late applicable to the train company used (15 for Avanti West Coast), you can then claim DelayRepay.
2. Decide not to travel and claim a refund on the ticket (note that this covers only the ticket(s) for the cancelled train and not any other tickets that may have been purchased at the same time, such as another advance ticket to make a future journey in the opposite direction). The refund must be claimed from whomever sold you the ticket, which might not be the train company you were planning to travel on.
3. Be assisted by any train company reasonably in a position to do so if you are stranded.

In the case of 1 and 2 above, it may be helpful to obtain some documentation proving the delay in case you are queried further down the line, but this isn't an obligation.

You could also:

1. Seek approval from a member of staff to travel on a service that is not the next available service (such as an earlier one if you arrived at the station well ahead of time).
2. Seek approval from a member of staff to travel by a different company's trains.

I would strongly advise getting such approval in writing wherever possible.

 

[317 forever]

I had an Advance Single for a Northern service from York to Leeds in September 2020. The journey was cancelled. (To be more specific, it was a York - Blackpool North that started from Leeds instead).

Anyway, I asked at the ticket office whether I could use it on the next train (TPE IIRC) but they advised me to use either the preceding or following Northern service. I decided to use the preceding Northern service. The guard saw my ticket but accepted it as fine.

 

[trover]

You have an automatic right to travel on the next available service that complies with the TOC and route restrictions applicable to your ticket. You may alternately elect to abandon your travel, return to your origin station if you are part-way through a journey, and claim a refund from the original retailer of your ticket. If you do elect to continue your journey you are entitled to claim Delay Repay based on the overall delay to your journey.

If you arrive in good time for your cancelled service you will usually be permitted to travel on an earlier service that complies with your ticket restrictions, but this is not an automatic right.

If complying with the TOC and route restrictions of your ticket would cause you considerable delay, you may seek an endorsement waiving some or all of the conditions from a suitable member of staff, but this is not an automatic right.

If complying with the TOC and route restrictions of your ticket would cause you to be stranded (ie, unable to complete your journey), you are entitled to seek the reasonable assistance of any TOC that is able to help you complete you journey. This is a right expressly provided by the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Sorry for replying to an old thread. In case of being stranded but other TOC train is able to carry me to the destination, can I just hop on without asking or do I have to have my ticket endorsed at the ticket office?

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry for replying to an old thread. In case of being stranded but other TOC train is able to carry me to the destination, can I just hop on without asking or do I have to have my ticket endorsed at the ticket office?

There is no right to get another TOC's train on an advance ticket unless it you have missed the last train of the day operated by that TOC. If you want to do this, you should get the ticket endorsed, but be mindful there is no contractual right to be carried if there are other services running operated by the TOC you booked with that day.

 

[trover]

There is no right to get another TOC's train on an advance ticket unless it you have missed the last train of the day operated by that TOC. If you want to do this, you should get the ticket endorsed, but be mindful there is no contractual right to be carried if there are other services running operated by the TOC you booked with that day.

What I encountered was the last train of the TOC which my advance ticket is specified to was cancelled. I asked the ticket office if my ticket can be endorsed to travel on another TOC train (which also operates the ticket office) otherwise I would have been stranded, refused and advised me to ask the conductor. Spoke with the conductor, ticket invalid, purchase a new one if I wished to get on. Although I managed to get on just before doors close, I got really confused and contacted TOC customer service, they said the ticket office was not obliged to endorse the ticket because it was TOC specific.

 

[AlterEgo]

What were the stations and services involved?

 

[Watershed]

Sorry for replying to an old thread. In case of being stranded but other TOC train is able to carry me to the destination, can I just hop on without asking or do I have to have my ticket endorsed at the ticket office?

Both the NRCoT and the PRO (which, together, give you your rights in this situation) are silent on the modalities of exercising your right to alternative transport and/or re-routing.

If there are no staff you can ask before boarding the train, I struggle to see how an operator could suggest that you must do anything to exercise your rights. It wouldn't really be credible to suggest that you should deliberately miss the last train, and instead cause the operator to incur unnecessary costs (e.g. taxis).

If there are staff available and they refuse to comply with the operator's obligations under the NRCoT and PRO, again I would have said the above applies. Inadequate staff training is not an excuse for failing to comply with obligations.

In the circumstances you've described, you would absolutely be justified in raising a complaint with the operator of the cancelled service and the operator of the station ticket office and last service, and claiming back any additional fares you felt you had to buy.

 

[trover]

What were the stations and services involved?

The case is now with the ombudsman, not sure to what extent can I disclose the details (or am I just worrying too much?), it was the same station with the OP.

Both the NRCoT and the PRO (which, together, give you your rights in this situation) are silent on the modalities of exercising your right to alternative transport and/or re-routing.

If there are no staff you can ask before boarding the train, I struggle to see how an operator could suggest that you must do anything to exercise your rights. It wouldn't really be credible to suggest that you should deliberately miss the last train, and instead cause the operator to incur unnecessary costs (e.g. taxis).

If there are staff available and they refuse to comply with the operator's obligations under the NRCoT and PRO, again I would have said the above applies. Inadequate staff training is not an excuse for failing to comply with obligations.

In the circumstances you've described, you would absolutely be justified in raising a complaint with the operator of the cancelled service and the operator of the station ticket office and last service, and claiming back any additional fares you felt you had to buy.

I’ve raised a complaint to the TOC which initially refused my ticket but they’re not addressing my questions accurately. I then escalated the matter to the ombudsman (for the sake of a clear explanation to avoid trouble in the future), the TOC again responded with nonsense. I’m still waiting for the ombudsman process and I’m not sure what would they do to ensure the TOC gives out correct information and advice, so I wish to make sure I’m familiar with the rules before further arguing with the TOC during mediation.

 

[yorkie]

What I encountered was the last train of the TOC which my advance ticket is specified to was cancelled. I asked the ticket office if my ticket can be endorsed to travel on another TOC train (which also operates the ticket office) otherwise I would have been stranded, refused and advised me to ask the conductor. Spoke with the conductor, ticket invalid, purchase a new one if I wished to get on. Although I managed to get on just before doors close, I got really confused and contacted TOC customer service, they said the ticket office was not obliged to endorse the ticket because it was TOC specific.

The TOC is very wrong; sadly this is not surprising as training at many TOCs is is very poor in this area.

The case is now with the ombudsman, not sure to what extent can I disclose the details (or am I just worrying too much?), it was the same station with the OP.

I’ve raised a complaint to the TOC which initially refused my ticket but they’re not addressing my questions accurately. I then escalated the matter to the ombudsman (for the sake of a clear explanation to avoid trouble in the future), the TOC again responded with nonsense. I’m still waiting for the ombudsman process and I’m not sure what would they do to ensure the TOC gives out correct information and advice, so I wish to make sure I’m familiar with the rules before further arguing with the TOC during mediation.

Let us know how the Ombudsman responds; please tag me in if they don't help you.

Who was the retailer? It's not their problem but a good retailer may support you in the event of a dispute.

What TOC was it who refused the ticket?

 

[Haywain]

not sure to what extent can I disclose the details (or am I just worrying too much?), it was the same station with the OP.

Was the TOC who operated the ticket office the same as the TOC whose train you wished to board? Or the same TOC as the one that delayed you? Or a third party TOC who were not involved in the trains that you were using? Whilst it doesn't necessarily make a material difference to what the outcome should have been it would help to understand how the case was handled.

 

[trover]

The TOC is very wrong; sadly this is not surprising as training at many TOCs is is very poor in this area.


Let us know how the Ombudsman responds; please tag me in if they don't help you.

Who was the retailer? It's not their problem but a good retailer may support you in the event of a dispute.

What TOC was it who refused the ticket?

TPE was the retailer and the operator of the cancelled train, the well known Northern was the operator of the ticket office and which the conductor refused my ticket in the first place.
I wasn’t out of pocket, just wanted clarification. Apart from “the ticket office has no obligation to endorse TOC specific ticket”, they also mentioned stuff like “cross TOC agreement is required for them to accept the ticket”, albeit already told them the cancelled train was the last train of the day of that particular TOC.
The attitude of the conductor was pessimistic as well, he asked us to board the front of the train for the reason he could avoid seeing our tickets during inspection (or equivalent meaning). Unfortunately this was ignored by the TOC’s customer service in my complaint, arguing the member of staff was using his discretion; when asking about the validity of my ticket, the response was ambiguous.
The TOC offered an explanation and a complimentary ticket in the early stage of ombudsman’s involvement, I refused and replied by pointing out how inaccurate and low quality their response to the ombudsman is, and of course the fact that they ignored what the member of staff had behaved again. I’m still waiting for the ombudsman for the next step.

@yorkie The ombudsman responded to me stating we are in the stage of mediation, asking if I’ve any remaining questions to ask. I’ve listed my questions to the TOC in previous email but their response was nonsense, and I’ve pointed out the weaknesses of their response with explanation in my previous email. Can you advise me how to respond as I don’t want the case end up being “the TOC said bla bla bla, the TOC is a reliable source, therefore the decision is based on what the TOC has said” like some of the ombudsman cases I’ve seen previously on this forum.

Btw am I allowed to disclose my conversation with the ombudsman (and responses from the TOC) here on this forum, as it would be easier for everyone to follow?

 

[Cowley]

@trover has now received a reply from the ombudsman which can be found in a separate thread which is here.