Advance Ticket on Strike Day

[Catch]

I have an Advance ticket (discounted with Senior Railcard) for travel with Southern to Gatwick on 8th May. The train has been cancelled as a result of the previous day's strike. I bought the ticket several weeks ago.

I understand I can use my existing ticket on the next train, half an hour later, which should get me to Gatwick in time for my flight. But if that service is delayed or cancelled the day's reduced timetable means I'd be arriving at least 1.5 hours late and would miss the flight.

I'd like to get the train that runs 1/2 hour earlier than my original booking to leave some leeway, including time to arrange other transport if Southern are in a mess.

Should my Advance ticket be valid on an earlier train that day?

Does it matter that the earlier train is earlier than would normally be valid for an Advance ticket?

Does it matter that the earlier train is earlier than would normally be valid for my railcard?

 

[Haywain]

Should my Advance ticket be valid on an earlier train that day?

Yes.

Does it matter that the earlier train is earlier than would normally be valid for an Advance ticket?

I'm not sure what you mean by this - Advance tickets are only ever valid on the booked train and do not have time restrictions in the way that walk-up tickets do.

Does it matter that the earlier train is earlier than would normally be valid for my railcard?

It shouldn't matter. The only railcard that has an absolute cut-off time for use is the Two Together Railcard, as far as I can recall; others tend to have a minimum fare element (which wouldn't be applied to Advance tickets) or can't be applied to Advance tickets.

 

[Catch]

Yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - Advance tickets are only ever valid on the booked train and do not have time restrictions in the way that walk-up tickets do.

It shouldn't matter. The only railcard that has an absolute cut-off time for use is the Two Together Railcard, as far as I can recall; others tend to have a minimum fare element (which wouldn't be applied to Advance tickets) or can't be applied to Advance tickets.

Thanks for your reply. Interesting!

I've always found Advance tickets to be unavailable for peak periods but checking this journey for e.g. tomorrow I see Southern are offering Advance tickets earlier than I'd expected. So maybe there is no restriction and I don't usually see them as they have already been snapped up.

Senior Railcard, though, does appear to have some restrictions. National Rail site says:

The only restriction is morning Peak time services, Monday to Friday (not including public holidays) when journeys are made wholly within the London and South East Network Railcard area. See Time Restrictions for more details.

I rang Southern who are saying I can only use the ticket on a later train, not an earlier one, which they say is their general policy for Advance tickets. We did not get as far as discussing the effect of any time restrictions, at least one of which seems to have been a figment of my imagination.

 

[redreni]

I rang Southern who are saying I can only use the ticket on a later train, not an earlier one, which they say is their general policy for Advance tickets. We did not get as far as discussing the effect of any time restrictions, at least one of which seems to have been a figment of my imagination.

Unbelievable.

If ever there was a case for the regulator to impose the rule that applies on Deutsche Bahn - the booked train only restriction is only enforceable when the booked train runs! If Deutsche Bahn cancel your booked train, part of your recompense for this inconvenience and failure of delivery is that you now have a flexible ticket.

You wouldn't think it would be necessary to force TOCs to accept advances on the previous train where the booked train is cancelled as it would, in most cases, save a delay repay claim. So a well run business would offer it as a matter of course. Yet here we are.

 

[Catch]

Is there a specific regulation that says I can travel on the earlier train? It would be nice to have something reasonably solid to point to if challenged.

If I board the earlier train and someone decides my ticket is invalid would I face a penalty fare or be given the opportunity to buy a new ticket (and maybe argue the toss with Southern later, perhaps with help from the Ombudsman)?

 

[redreni]

Is there a specific regulation that says I can travel on the earlier train? It would be nice to have something reasonably solid to point to if challenged.

If I board the earlier train and someone decides my ticket is invalid would I face a penalty fare or be given the opportunity to buy a new ticket (and maybe argue the toss with Southern later, perhaps with help from the Ombudsman)?

Not as far as I'm aware, no. I've edited my post above just to clarify which remarks relate to Germany and which to your situation.

If I were you I would arrive in time for the earlier train and ask the gateline staff if you can go through and seek the guard's permission to travel on that train.

If that works, great. If not, if there's no signs of disruption beyond what's already been announced, maybe have breakfast in Wetherspoons and wait for the train after your booked train?

 

[Watershed]

Is there a specific regulation that says I can travel on the earlier train? It would be nice to have something reasonably solid to point to if challenged.

If I board the earlier train and someone decides my ticket is invalid would I face a penalty fare or be given the opportunity to buy a new ticket (and maybe argue the toss with Southern later, perhaps with help from the Ombudsman)?

Unfortunately there isn't anything in the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) or the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO) which assists you in this situation. The anticipated delay by taking the next available service would have to exceed 60 minutes for you to be entitled to be re-routed "at the earliest opportunity" (i.e. on the next available train). So if the later train were cancelled or running late and thus expected to get you there 61+ minutes late, then you'd be entitled to take an earlier train.

Otherwise you're reliant on the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which requires companies to use "reasonable care and skill" (section 49) and to provide services in accordance with any information they published or gave that influenced your purchasing decision (section 50). The latter point in particular is the one I'd rely on, as I feel reasonably confident that it requires them to allow you to take an earlier train to avoid being delayed - especially given the time-critical nature of your journey. However, I'll be the first to admit that this isn't necessarily as straightforward as pointing to something that clearly says you're entitled to take an earlier train.

It may be the case that you reluctantly decide to pay the difference ('excess') to a flexible ticket (which should be possible through the retailer you used to buy your ticket, or any ticket office) so that you can take the earlier train. If so, you may want to consider contacting Southern after the fact to try and claim this back.

 

[Haywain]

It may be the case that you reluctantly decide to pay the difference ('excess') to a flexible ticket (which should be possible through the retailer you used to buy your ticket, or any ticket office) so that you can take the earlier train. If so, you may want to consider contacting Southern after the fact to try and claim this back.

Of course, if the OP boards the earlier train and is deemed not to have a valid ticket, the only charge applicable would be the difference to the cheapest available fare that allowed use of that train. In that case I think just boarding that train would be appropriate, and then reclaiming any excess that was charged. I very much doubt any such charge would be deemed appropriate by train staff anyway.

Edited to delete incorrect advice.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

7.2 Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Also Section 6.1 National Rail Conditions of Travel:

You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one

Section 9.1 mandates that the only exceptions to boarding without a valid ticket are those circumstances listed in Section 6.

So do not rely upon Haywain's advice.

 

[Watershed]

That is not correct.

Advance terms are clear on this.





Also Section 6.1 National Rail Conditions of Travel:



Section 9.1 mandates that the only exceptions to boarding without a valid ticket are those circumstances listed in Section 6.

I think you may be quoting the wrong post as I clearly stated that the excess up to a walk-up ticket would have to be done through:

the retailer you used to buy your ticket, or any ticket office

I concur that there is no entitlement to excess an Advance into a walk-up ticket onboard a train, but it is questionable whether it would be compliant with consumer and contract law to charge anything extra when the OP is only on the earlier train in the first place to mitigate the impact of Southern's breach of contract.

There could also be an argument that condition 5.2 of the Advance ticket conditions authorises the use of an earlier train.

 

[AndyPJG]

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Also Section 6.1 National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Section 9.1 mandates that the only exceptions to boarding without a valid ticket are those circumstances listed in Section 6.

So do not rely upon Haywain's advice.

but Section 8 (Refunds) of the "Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions" states:-
"8.4 If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed)."

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think you may be quoting the wrong post as I clearly stated that the excess up to a walk-up ticket would have to be done through:


I concur that there is no entitlement to excess an Advance into a walk-up ticket onboard a train, but it is questionable whether it would be compliant with consumer and contract law to charge anything extra when the OP is only on the earlier train in the first place to mitigate the impact of Southern's breach of contract.

There could also be an argument that condition 5.2 of the Advance ticket conditions authorises the use of an earlier train.

Yes, apologies, incorrect post originally quoted.

Personally, I don't think there should be an issue with using it on a train within a reasonable time frame measured against the original departure time. I suspect, in practice, permission will be granted on the day locally.

I'm not convinced that there is a strict entitlement to board the earlier train, but it would ordinarly be a sensible approach, save for exceptional disruption when you need to try and stagger customer demand as close to the original time as possible, for example, to ensure that there are no safety risks / sufficient capacity to handle the displaced customers.

 

[Catch]

Thanks everyone; some food for thought.

Station unstaffed (no nearby refreshments) but I can try to ask the guard before boarding the earlier train. If they're unhappy I'll pay the excess (or buy a new ticket and claim a refund on the original) and discuss with Southern later. I'm assuming a PF is unlikely.

 

[trainophile]

It’s situations like this that reinforce my view that the railway needs to remember that it is there as a crucial facility for millions of people, not just as some sort of optional leisure activity.

TfW have the same policy of only permitting travel on the next train not the previous one when they cancel a service. It’s completely unreasonable and in practice costs travellers huge amounts of money and time, and even missed appointments, which is totally unacceptable.

 

[redreni]

It’s situations like this that reinforce my view that the railway needs to remember that it is there as a crucial facility for millions of people, not just as some sort of optional leisure activity.

TfW have the same policy of only permitting travel on the next train not the previous one when they cancel a service. It’s completely unreasonable and in practice costs travellers huge amounts of money and time, and even missed appointments, which is totally unacceptable.

The terms and conditions of Advance tickets are pretty harsh on a passenger who doesn't live up to their end of the bargain - namely to turn up at the departing station at the right time and to travel only on their booked train.

If they miss the booked train, the penalty is forfeiture of 100% of the money paid and they're left with a worthless, invalid ticket. No right to an excess. Buy a new ticket or don't travel. If they travel anyway, the sanctions only get harsher.

When the TOC fails to live up to its end of the bargain, however, they don't seem to want to accept proportionate consequences. This creates an imbalance in the terms and conditions which the regulator ought to try to correct, in my humble opinion.

As I say, I think the German system is a fair compromise - the cancellation of the passenger's booked train will invariably be an inconvenience to them and they will need to mitigate that. It is unreasonable for the TOC to make it difficult for passengers to mitigate the consequences of their failure to deliver the service as contracted.

A fair set of rules, in my view, would be:

• if off-peak tickets would not have been valid on the cancelled train had it run, passengers with an Advance ticket for the cancelled train will be treated as if they held and Anytime ticket; and
• if off-peak tickets would have been valid on the cancelled train had it run, passengers with an Advance ticket for that train will be treated as if they held an off-peak ticket; except
• passengers with an Advance ticket for a cancelled train will in any event be entitled to travel on the train before or the train after their booked train, irrespective of any peak restrictions (including if the train before the cancelled train runs the previous evening or the train after runs the next morning).

 

[trainophile]

The stupidest thing about only allowing travel on the next service but not the previous one, is that if they permitted either/or it would spread the load, you'd potentially have 1.5 trainloads of people on each of two services, instead of two loads trying to cram into one. It's nonsensical that they take this attitude, and whoever decides such things needs to apply some logic to future rule-making.

 

[Haywain]

The stupidest thing about only allowing travel on the next service but not the previous one, is that if they permitted either/or it would spread the load, you'd potentially have 1.5 trainloads of people on each of two services, instead of two loads trying to cram into one. It's nonsensical that they take this attitude, and whoever decides such things needs to apply some logic to future rule-making.

That only works if there are no other cancellations. If the train before the earlier of those has been cancelled there will be more people than 1.5 trainloads. However, the ticket should be accepted on the trains before or after the booked train.

 

[redreni]

The stupidest thing about only allowing travel on the next service but not the previous one, is that if they permitted either/or it would spread the load, you'd potentially have 1.5 trainloads of people on each of two services, instead of two loads trying to cram into one. It's nonsensical that they take this attitude, and whoever decides such things needs to apply some logic to future rule-making.

Yep, and if the railway were structured in such a way that the person who decides on this policy cared about overall net revenue (rather than discounting anything that doesn't fall into the particular silo their boss cares about), then they might allow people to avoid being delayed if they can, partly on the basis that it would save processing and paying out on a delay repay claim.

 

[trainophile]

So they pay out shedloads of delay repay, and ticket prices have to go up to cover it. It really is sounding like a "you couldn't make it up" ruling.