Advance Ticket Routed LNER&Connections

[mathstrains19]

My friend has a ticket from Apperley Bridge (APY) to Norbury (NRB), routed "Specified LNER trains and connecting services". On his (separate) reservation coupon, a specific train is printed for APY to Leeds (LDS) (But stating no reservation for this section). Is he automatically permitted to travel on the preceding train APY-LDS, or would we have to ask the guard nicely before boarding?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My friend has a ticket from Apperley Bridge (APY) to Norbury (NRB), routed "Specified LNER trains and connecting services". On his (separate) reservation coupon, a specific train is printed for APY to Leeds (LDS) (But stating no reservation for this section). Is he automatically permitted to travel on the preceding train APY-LDS, or would we have to ask the guard nicely before boarding?

If there is a reservation (including a counted place) for a given journey section you must use the reserved train.

 

[mathstrains19]

I believe there is no reservation at all, not even counted place. Would this mean he can then use the previous train?

 

[yorkie]

I believe there is no reservation at all, not even counted place. Would this mean he can then use the previous train?

Did you say there is a coupon specifying the train from APY? If so it must be taken.

In future, you can get the itinerary you require from our ticket booking site.

Although break of journey isn't permitted, you could use the forum's site to specify additional interchange time at Leeds, for the purpose of allowing time to use station facilities and/or minimising the chances of a delay.

It's worth bearing that in mind for future reference, but for this journey, you do need to stick to the itinerary, unless staff give you permission to travel earlier.

If, for any journey you book in future, your arrival time is particularly important, and delay compensation wouldn't make up for a delay, I would advise allowing more interchange time in future. If you are unsure how to do this, we can advise and provide a step by step guide including screenshots...

 

[thejuggler]

I regularly take trains from Leeds to London, after taking a local service into Leeds. Typically connections from Bramley, New Pudsey, Apperley Bridge or Kirkstall Forge.

There has never been an issue taking an earlier connecting service. Seats can't be reserved on the Northern local connecting services.

 

[yorkie]

I regularly take trains from Leeds to London, after taking a local service into Leeds. Typically connections from Bramley, New Pudsey, Apperley Bridge or Kirkstall Forge.

There has never been an issue taking an earlier connecting service.

Good to hear the Guards take a pragmatic approach.

However, is this official Northern policy (it is GTR's), and can you guarantee revenue protection officers will take the same pragmatic approach?

Northern revenue protection officers are known for having people among their ranks who are the opposite of pragmatic; many of them are arguably not fit for the job they do (but then I have different expectations of employees than senior staff at Northern do), and certainly wouldn't be suitable to be employed as Guards.

If anyone can identify they Northern have an official policy, then great, but until then I would not take an earlier service without permission from the Guard.

Seats can't be reserved on the Northern local connecting services.

This isn't relevant; Northern, Chiltern, Greater Anglia, WMT, GTR and others offer Advance fares that are not tied to a specific seat.

My reading of the original post is that they do hold a reservation coupon, stating a specific service, from APY to LDS, but with no specific seat, which is absolutely normal for all Advance tickets on Northern services, and this applies regardless of who sets the fare.

In contrast, Northern certainly did and - without checking - probably still do operate some services that have no reservations whatsoever, in which case any "appropriate" connecting service can be used into the booked service, but that doesn't appear to be the case here, based on my understanding of the wording of the opening post.

 

[jamiearmley]

I can confirm that all trains shown on "mandatory reservation coupons" are treated as mandatory with regards to revenue protection and enforcement at Northern. This is official policy and has been briefed out several times to all those who check and sell tickets in any capacity.

This has been the case for some years now, since the majority of Northern services went over to being 'reservable' -(at the time of the hotly debated introduction of the short distance Advance/ Advance purchase on the day (APOD)).

It's enforced less strictly with CCST tickets, more strictly with digital. (I guess easier to spot with digital/scanning).

Not all '&connections' have mandatory legs - those without mandatory legs seem not to show the connecting leg on the reservation coupon.

 

[Deerfold]

I regularly take trains from Leeds to London, after taking a local service into Leeds. Typically connections from Bramley, New Pudsey, Apperley Bridge or Kirkstall Forge.

There has never been an issue taking an earlier connecting service. Seats can't be reserved on the Northern local connecting services.

On trains towards Skipton I fairly regularly catch the train after the one I'm booked one when the London train is delayed. No guards in recent times has told me I'm invalid once they know the London train was late, but it has been queried. I'm careful not to catch the wrong train into Leeds.

A couple of months ago I was on a day ticket but sat opposite two ladies travelling from Halifax to Bradford on an advance. The guard was quite forceful in telling them they were on the wrong train before letting them off this time. The train we were on was late and had left Halifax at exactly the scheduled time of their train. The platform monitors had said the next departure was their scheduled train until that train had actually stopped at the platform and it then changed.

 

[Starmill]

I regularly take trains from Leeds to London, after taking a local service into Leeds. Typically connections from Bramley, New Pudsey, Apperley Bridge or Kirkstall Forge.

There has never been an issue taking an earlier connecting service. Seats can't be reserved on the Northern local connecting services.

Unfortunately a seat is neither here nor there. And in my experience as far as Northern's revenue staff are concerned, if you're on the wrong train you're on the wrong train, no ifs, no buts. You are unlikely to meet one of these. However, in the event you did, they would be likely to report you for criminal conduct, or refuse to allow you to board.

 

[etr221]

Something that strikes me about this situation, while the is labelled (and probably bought and sold) as 'LNER and Connections', should it actually be 'Northern and Connections' - as you are expected to get a specific Northern train and then take it from there?

 

[Haywain]

Something that strikes me about this situation, while the is labelled (and probably bought and sold) as 'LNER and Connections', should it actually be 'Northern and Connections' - as you are expected to get a specific Northern train and then take it from there?

No, it just happens that in this case there isn't an alternative to Northern for the connecting part of the journey. It is entirely reasonable that the fare and availability is set by LNER.

 

[Deerfold]

N

No, it just happens that in this case there isn't an alternative to Northern for the connecting part of the journey. It is entirely reasonable that the fare and availability is set by LNER.

Otherwise we'd see different descriptions (and potentially fare setters) in different directions.

 

[xotGD]

It is rather daft. Northern should be happy for passengers to catch an earlier train into Leeds and thereby reduce the risk of missing a connection, which would result in Northern being liable for Delay Repay.

It is also annoying on the way back, where you can easily make an unofficial +8 connection but are not valid and have to hope that the guard is feeling generous.

 

[yorkie]

It is rather daft. Northern should be happy for passengers to catch an earlier train into Leeds and thereby reduce the risk of missing a connection, which would result in Northern being liable for Delay Repay.

They should have an official policy allowing this (does anyone know for certain, either way?), as GTR do, and for exactly this reason.

However I'm not sure Northern have the intelligence to actually work this out and implement such a policy, but if anyone can demonstrate that they do, I am keen to be corrected on that....

It is also annoying on the way back, where you can easily make an unofficial +8 connection but are not valid and have to hope that the guard is feeling generous.

Yes; it's all very anti-passenger, isn't it?

The vast majority of Northern Guards are pragmatic, but not asking is risky, as you never know when you are going to encounter a member of staff who isn't pragmatic (or, as some might say, "being a jobsworth", i.e. enforcing rules to the letter, contrary to common sense)

 

[redreni]

I find this quite infuriating. Sometimes I work around it by splitting between an Advance for the intercity leg and a day return for the Northern leg, if the difference in price isn't too much. It can be fiddly to book it that way, though, as there's no journey planner as far as I am aware that will offer flexible tickets just for the connecting leg in conjunction with Advances for the main leg when that combination works out more expensive (even if only by a few pence) than using Advances all the way. So the only workaround is to book it as separate journeys (though ideally on the same booking), and in order to preserve rights in the event of disruption it's then necessary to make sure the itineraries join up with sufficient connection time. And even that won't stop staff failing to understand or accept that you are making a through journey.

The ability to take advantage of an unofficial sub-10 minute connection at somewhere like Leeds without having to ask the guard first (there may not be time to speak to the guard if it's a tight connection) can be well worth a modest supplement on the overall fare, in my opinion. As can the ability on the return leg to choose an earlier train to the split point and to break the journey there if desired.

Depending on the journey another option worth considering is to combine an Advance to Doncaster (booked on a London to Leeds train) with a day return Doncaster to South Elmsall and a West Yorkshire Day Ranger. Or just an Advance to Wakefield plus a West Yorkshire Day Ranger.