Advance Tickets - Nonsensical restrictions should be removed

[HowardX99]

Yesterday, I travelled from Liverpool Lime Street on a ticket to Blackpool North for a retirees day out with some old colleagues.

Our host lives in Poulton-le-Fylde and suggested we get off at his home station for a pint in his local before continuing to Blackpool. We had a pint there and then, on our way on to Blackpool, on arrival at Poulton station I asked the lady on the ticket office if we could use our original ticket or would we need to buy another for the short hop into Blackpool? She advised that we needed a new ticket, which we accepted and duly bought.

I agreed that breaking the journey in this way was not part of my contract. Anticipating that we would return in the same manner we got a return ticket back to Poulton. This cost us £4.

This we duly did and boarded our originally intended Blackpool to Liverpool train at Poulton. This train was the exact same one that was specified by our Advance Return ticket. So, we had actually paid an extra £4 each on top of the extra return tickets from Liverpool to Blackpool just so we would break our journey at Poulton.

Immediately we sat down on the train from Poulton we were asked for our tickets, which we duly presented. Clearly, the inspector had watched us get on.

We were then told that "by rights we should each pay a £100 penalty charge". Pardon! What sort of logic is this? Seriously perverted. We managed to sweet talk the inspector but part of me wished this one would go to court.

Who in their right mind can see anything whatsoever wrong with what we did? We paid an extra £4 for a journey we had already paid for.

Honestly, if anyone thinks this is anyway to run a railway then the whole lot deserves to be consigned to history, which is probably where it is heading. My eldest son works in the industry and believes it is barmy.

Why do we allow such nonsense to persist? Answers please.

 

[Haywain]

Sorry, you won't like this answer. If you don't want to abide by the conditions of the ticket you buy, instead buy one that has conditions you can abide by.

 

[Elecman]

Yesterday, I travelled from Liverpool Lime Street on a ticket to Blackpool North for a retirees day out with some old colleagues. Our host lives in Poulton-le-Fylde and suggested we get off at his home station for a pint in his local before continuing to Blackpool. We had a pint there and then, on our way on to Blackpool, on arrival at Poulton station I asked the lady on the ticket office if we could use our original ticket or would we need to buy another for the short hop into Blackpool? She advised that we needed a new ticket, which we accepted and duly bought. I agreed that breaking the journey in this way was not part of my contract. Anticipating that we would return in the same manner we got a return ticket back to Poulton. This cost us £4. This we duly did and boarded our originally intended Blackpool to Liverpool train at Poulton. This train was the exact same one that was specified by our Advance Return ticket. So, we had actually paid an extra £4 each on top of the extra return tickets from Liverpool to Blackpool just so we would break our journey at Poulton. Immediately we sat down on the train from Poulton we were asked for our tickets, which we duly presented. Clearly, the inspector had watched us get on. We were then told that "by rights we should each pay a £100 penalty charge". Pardon! What sort of logic is this? Seriously perverted. We managed to sweet talk the inspector but part of me wished this one would go to court. Who in their right mind can see anything whatsoever wrong with what we did? We paid an extra £4 for a journey we had already paid for. Honestly, if anyone thinks this is anyway to run a railway then the whole lot deserves to be consigned to history, which is probably where it is heading. My eldest son works in the industry and believes it is barmy. Why do we allow such nonsense to persist? Answers please.

Unfortunately you broke the conditions of your advance tickets in breaking your journey short of the ticket destination and joining the train after its departure station. Those are the strict rules of Advance tickets along with being tied to specific trains hence why they are cheaper because of those restrictions

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, you won't like this answer. If you don't want to abide by the conditions of the ticket you buy, instead buy one that has conditions you can abide by.

This may be true but doesn't really deal with the OP's complaint, which is that it is nonsensical that you can't consume less than you purchased. Indeed, it's industry policy to allow starting/ending short on Advances where not deliberately done to avoid a higher fare.

That the ticket might "die" if you stop off is logical (as you can't reboard the booked train), but that you can't just start/end short is beyond stupid. All tickets should permit break of journey; the question should simply be whether they permit it to be resumed or not. Which is how BR saw it "way back when" - break of journey restrictions e.g. on the outward part of a Saver simply meant if you stopped you couldn't restart.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thoughts? Some might say that the OP and colleagues have essentially bought advance tickets in order to save some money and then wanted to use them as if they were semi-flexible tickets. In order to hop off and back on at intermediate stations, something like an Off Peak Day Return would have fitted the bill. Buying the cheapest available Advance tickets comes with conditions, which such ticket holders are expected to adhere to. At least @HowardX99 hasn't been PF'd.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed, it's industry policy to allow starting/ending short on Advances where not deliberately done to avoid a higher fare.

That is the case with ending short, but not, as far as I recall, with starting short.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thoughts? Some might say that the OP and colleagues have essentially bought advance tickets in order to save some money and then wanted to use them as if they were semi-flexible tickets. In order to hop off and back on at intermediate stations, something like an Off Peak Day Return would have fitted the bill. Buying the cheapest available Advance tickets comes with conditions, which such ticket holders are expected to adhere to. At least @HowardX99 hasn't been PF'd.

It doesn't sound like they had this stop-off in mind when purchasing the tickets. If they had, then purchasing tickets allowing BoJ would seem to be appropriate (or appropriately split Advances). But even so this will just keep happening, because it's intuitively so that you should be able to use less of something you paid for.

TBH it's just yet another case of Northern's relatively short-distance Advances causing aggro (it's not as short as some, admittedly, but it's a regional journey, not an InterCity one). They're just not helpful and need to be binned off, the lot of them. Curse on whoever invented counted places; the old system where Advances only existed on trains that actually had reservable seats gave for a sensible distinction.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Oh come on, I know you don't like Northern Advances, but what on earth is wrong with an advance from Liverpool to Blackpool?

 

[yorkie]

Yes We were then told that "by rights we should each pay a £100 penalty charge". Pardon! What sort of logic is this?

The inspector is wrong to say a Penalty Fare could apply, however they are entitled to charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for the journey actually made (£19.20 less any Railcard difference).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh come on, I know you don't like Northern Advances, but what on earth is wrong with an advance from Liverpool to Blackpool?

Go somewhere like Italy or Germany.

InterCity trains, for long distance journeys, are compulsory reservation and demand-priced.
Regional trains, for short and medium distance journeys, are near-entirely walk-up with one set of fixed fares.

Liverpool to Blackpool is about the same distance as Bletchley to Euston. Neither makes sense to have Advances.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

As someone who regularly does Reading to Paddington, I jealously eye the considerable savings possible on Advances from the likes of Basingstoke, Newbury, and Oxford.

However, though the BoJ restrictions may seem counterintuitive and “silly”, I can see the logic behind them. If, for whatever reason, the railway doesn’t wish to offer Advances between certain pairs of stations, it’s probably reasonable to stop people getting round that, particularly since only limited numbers of these tickets are available.

 

[yorkie]

Go somewhere like Italy or Germany.

InterCity trains, for long distance journeys, are compulsory reservation and demand-priced.

And in many cases this applies for longer journeys too!

Thoughts? Some might say that the OP and colleagues have essentially bought advance tickets in order to save some money and then wanted to use them as if they were semi-flexible tickets....

Have they? They used the Advance fares for Poulton to Liverpool, which is the same price as Blackpool to Liverpool, and bought additional tickets on top.

In order to hop off and back on at intermediate stations, something like an Off Peak Day Return would have fitted the bill.

True

Buying the cheapest available Advance tickets comes with conditions, which such ticket holders are expected to adhere to.

And ticket inspectors are expected to adhere to the relevant rules and legislation, but that's too much to ask at times!

At least @HowardX99 hasn't been PF'd.

If they were, they'd be able to appeal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who regularly does Reading to Paddington, I jealously eye the considerable savings possible on Advances from the likes of Basingstoke, Newbury, and Oxford.

However, though the BoJ restrictions may seem counterintuitive and “silly”, I can see the logic behind them. If, for whatever reason, the railway doesn’t wish to offer Advances between certain pairs of stations, it’s probably reasonable to stop people getting round that, particularly since only limited numbers of these tickets are available.

It's so counterintuitive to how a reasonable person would see things that at least they should have a very clear red strapline on the summary purchase screen stating something like (I won't use red so I don't look like I'm pretending to be a mod):

THIS TICKET MUST ONLY BE USED TO TRAVEL BETWEEN THESE STATIONS FOR THE FULL BOOKED JOURNEY. YOU MAY NOT STOP OR START SHORT NOR BREAK YOUR JOURNEY, IF YOU DO YOU WILL NEED TO PAY THE DIFFERENCE TO THE CHEAPEST FARE FOR THE WHOLE JOURNEY THAT PERMITS ONE OF THESE.

As someone who regularly does Reading to Paddington, I jealously eye the considerable savings possible on Advances from the likes of Basingstoke, Newbury, and Oxford.

Oxford is another example of a ridiculous use of Advances. They're available on most trains at fixed prices right up to travel. Yet this is a South East commuter service, albeit one operated using fancy trains.

They are used as a substitute for doing what would make sense - having a three-step Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak structure, and allowing the middle tier to be used from London in the evening peak, and the lowest tier to be used towards London at those times.

However, though the BoJ restrictions may seem counterintuitive and “silly”, I can see the logic behind them. If, for whatever reason, the railway doesn’t wish to offer Advances between certain pairs of stations, it’s probably reasonable to stop people getting round that, particularly since only limited numbers of these tickets are available.

It's not however in the slightest bit intuitive. If you told the man on the Clapham omnibus about it, he'd probably fall off his seat and spit his coffee everywhere.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Thoughts? Some might say that the OP and colleagues have essentially bought advance tickets in order to save some money and then wanted to use them as if they were semi-flexible tickets. In order to hop off and back on at intermediate stations, something like an Off Peak Day Return would have fitted the bill. Buying the cheapest available Advance tickets comes with conditions, which such ticket holders are expected to adhere to. At least @HowardX99 hasn't been PF'd.

In this case the advance tickets don't even seem that much cheaper than a more flexible off peak day return - to the point that I wouldn't be surprised if the the two advance singles (plus the £4 return into Blackpool from Poulton) were barely more expensive than the full off peak day return would have been. This seems to be another issue with these very short advances - the cost savings are often relatively small for major loss of flexibility (particularly in the case of a leisure journey like Blackpool, where you might not want to have to plan everything around specific trains and might prefer a more relaxing and less regimented trip).

 

[yorkie]

It doesn't sound like they had this stop-off in mind when purchasing the tickets. If they had, then purchasing tickets allowing BoJ would seem to be appropriate (or appropriately split Advances). But even so this will just keep happening, because it's intuitively so that you should be able to use less of something you paid for.

Then the solution is for staff to behave appropriately and/or for the rules to be set accordingly. Simples.

No need to make everyone pay a higher price just because you don't like people doing this; you keep arguing this and the same arguments against your proposals continue to apply.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In this case the advance tickets don't even seem that much cheaper than a more flexible off peak day return - to the point that I wouldn't be surprised if the the two advance singles (plus the £4 return into Blackpool from Poulton) were barely more expensive than the full off peak day return would have been. This seems to be another issue with these very short advances - the cost savings are often relatively small for major loss of flexibility (particularly in the case of a leisure journey like Blackpool, where you might not want to have to plan everything around specific trains and might prefer a more relaxing and less regimented trip).

It could I suppose be argued that these fares would be useful for people making a single journey, but there's a fix for that too - price singles at half returns (abolishing returns and adding 10% to the fare so as to discredit the idea not necessary, LNER ).

Then the solution is for staff to behave appropriately and/or for the rules to be set accordingly. Simples.

Certainly I'd accept the idea that Break of Journey should be permitted on ALL tickets, by which I mean starting/ending short on Advances (providing booked trains are used) as well as leaving the station during any layover, and stopping off on all walk-up tickets within their validity period. If that creates anomalies due to e.g. Avanti's outrageous Anytime fares, fix that.

That's what the "man on the Clapham omnibus" would expect to be the case.

Esoteric and nonintuitive rules just makes the railway look stupid and discourages its use.

 

[MotCO]

That is the case with ending short, but not, as far as I recall, with starting short.

But if you end short on the outward journey, you'd have to start short on the return.

 

[yorkie]

Oh come on, I know you don't like Northern Advances, but what on earth is wrong with an advance from Liverpool to Blackpool?

Nothing; @Bletchleyite just seems to advocate on numerous threads for effective price rises. Instead of creating a thread for his proposals we end up with the proposals littering existing threads. I trust this will be the final time.

But if you end short on the outward journey, you'd have to start short on the return.

Nope they didn't have to; the original posts stated they finished short at Poulton, then bought additional tickets for Poulton to Blackpool return, then visited Blackpool. The bit that is missing is that we can infer the same visit occured again at Poulton before the return journey was made on the original booked train, but starting short.

I agree the original post is difficult to follow; I've edited the post so it is now separate paragraphs in compliance with forum rules, so hopefully it is now easier to understand.

If they had just done a Poulton visit on their way to Blackpool, and not again on the return, the incorrect behaviour of the Northern inspector wouldn't have occured.

 

[talldave]

If the OP rejoined the train originally specified on the Advance after the pint-stop, didn't they also initially travel on the wrong train? Thus breaking two rules?

PS: I'm not disagreeing with the craziness, just clarifying the magnitude of sins committed! As someone who used to buy an annual season ticket that I never used, I remember vividly an industry colleague being informed by a ticket office that this was fraud!!!

 

[leytongabriel]

It's so counterintuitive to how a reasonable person would see things that at least they should have a very clear red strapline on the summary purchase screen stating something like (I won't use red so I don't look like I'm pretending to be a mod):

THIS TICKET MUST ONLY BE USED TO TRAVEL BETWEEN THESE STATIONS FOR THE FULL BOOKED JOURNEY. YOU MAY NOT STOP OR START SHORT NOR BREAK YOUR JOURNEY, IF YOU DO YOU WILL NEED TO PAY THE DIFFERENCE TO THE CHEAPEST FARE FOR THE WHOLE JOURNEY THAT PERMITS ONE OF THESE.



Oxford is another example of a ridiculous use of Advances. They're available on most trains at fixed prices right up to travel. Yet this is a South East commuter service, albeit one operated using fancy trains.

They are used as a substitute for doing what would make sense - having a three-step Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak structure, and allowing the middle tier to be used from London in the evening peak, and the lowest tier to be used towards London at those times.



It's not however in the slightest bit intuitive. If you told the man on the Clapham omnibus about it, he'd probably fall off his seat and spit his coffee everywhere.

And the Oxford ticketing seems to create anomalies with Didcot Parkway - on the way, a shorter distance but more expensive.

 

[yorkie]

If the OP rejoined the train originally specified on the Advance after the pint-stop, didn't they also initially travel on the wrong train? Thus breaking two rules?

No; they bought an additional ticket from Poulton to Blackpool.

I understand the original post was difficult to follow; I've edited the post so it is now separate paragraphs in compliance with forum rules, so hopefully it is now easier to understand.

PS: I'm not disagreeing with the craziness, just clarifying the magnitude of sins committed! As someone who used to buy an annual season ticket that I never used, I remember vividly an industry colleague being informed by a ticket office that this was fraud!!!

Some staff make up nonsense; the rail industry has insufficient safeguards in place to prevent rogue staff making things up.

 

[Ediswan]

The bit that is missing is that we can infer the same visit occured again at Poulton before the return journey was made on the original booked train, but starting short.

No need to infer, that is the journey described:

Anticipating that we would return in the same manner we got a return ticket back to Poulton. This cost us £4.

This we duly did and boarded our originally intended Blackpool to Liverpool train at Poulton.

 

[yorkie]

No need to infer, that is the journey described:

True, though it infers an earlier train was boarded at Blackpool, due to a return ticket being purchased, I can see how people missed this as it wasn't explicitly stated that a train was boarded at Blackpool, and the whole post was previously one giant paragraph.

As I said earlier, I believe it's easier to follow now.

But the summary is: the inspector doesn't know the Penalty Fares rules, an excess (not penalty) fare could have been charged, but common sense prevailed.

 

[HowardX99]

Unfortunately you broke the conditions of your advance tickets in breaking your journey short of the ticket destination and joining the train after its departure station. Those are the strict rules of Advance tickets along with being tied to specific trains hence why they are cheaper because of those restrictions

Please, exactly why does ending a journey "short" (in the parlance being used) and then starting the return journey "short" and paying twice for the bit that was shorted somehow cost the rail company money and so "justify" the so-called cheaper ticket? This is bonkers and I for one want no part of this madness. Back to the car for me for all journeys where my concessionary pass does not remove me from this tyranny. Those folk on this forum who are defending such nonsense need to look in the mirror. Bizarre.

Thanks for all, well most of all, the replies. I'm a very infrequent train traveller and it certainly appears to be a weird parallel universe for those of us not well versed in the intricacies. What is really weird are those that really don't see the weirdness of it all. For those that accept the weirdness and yet obviously continue to embrace the idiosyncrasies you have my respect and sympathy - in equal measures. Happy travelling! Things really can't continues like this.

 

[yorkie]

Please, exactly why does ending a journey "short" (in the parlance being used) and then starting the return journey "short" and paying twice for the bit that was shorted somehow cost the rail company money and so "justify" the so-called cheaper ticket?

It doesn't

This is bonkers and I for one want no part of this madness. Back to the car for me for all journeys where my concessionary pass does not remove me from this tyranny.

Or you could use the forum's ticketing site and click the "Flexible" option, ensuring that you never get lumped with Advance fares. We may even be able to charge you less than what the TOCs want you to pay (they want to try to charge people a huge premium for some journeys but we can legitimately circumvent that!)

Those folk on this forum who are defending such nonsense need to look in the mirror. Bizarre.

I don't think many people are defending the behaviour of the staff member, who clearly doesn't understand the Penalty Fare rules.

As for the rules, which allow an excess fare to be charged, that is what the rule is, and it's only right that we provide that information to you. I doubt many people on this forum think the rule is a good rule to have though? In any case it is rarely, if ever, enforced; at least not correctly!

Things really can't continues like this.

I can assure you that the rail industry continues to train staff poorly as well as continue to stipulate ill-thought out anti-passenger rules and there is no-one within the industry who has both the power and desire to change it.

TOCs such as Northern do enjoy being able to threaten people with PFs; while the majority of their staff do not go round threatening people, a small minority do enjoy the power to do this, which can include making incorrect statements.

It's a minority but there are insufficient safeguards to prevent this happening, to detect these behaviours, or to do anything about it.

 

[Puffing Devil]

For future journeys by the OP, it's worth flagging the "Explorer 55" ticket from Northern that covers all their western network after 9:30 or all day at weekends/BHs. £17.50 for the day and no worries about hop on/hop off or fixed times.

 

[43096]

Go somewhere like Italy or Germany.

InterCity trains, for long distance journeys, are compulsory reservation and demand-priced.

Errrrrr, say what? IC (and ICE) services in Germany are not compulsory reservation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Errrrrr, say what? IC (and ICE) services in Germany are not compulsory reservation.

Sorry, should have said and/or.

What DB are presently doing, interestingly, is exactly what LNER and Avanti are doing, i.e. "fake compulsory reservations", that is trains can sell out but you can just buy a ticket for a different one. I have a feeling that's also true of Poland bar the IEP (Pendolino).

 

[occone]

Please, exactly why does ending a journey "short" (in the parlance being used) and then starting the return journey "short" and paying twice for the bit that was shorted somehow cost the rail company money and so "justify" the so-called cheaper ticket? This is bonkers and I for one want no part of this madness. Back to the car for me for all journeys where my concessionary pass does not remove me from this tyranny. Those folk on this forum who are defending such nonsense need to look in the mirror. Bizarre.

Thanks for all, well most of all, the replies. I'm a very infrequent train traveller and it certainly appears to be a weird parallel universe for those of us not well versed in the intricacies. What is really weird are those that really don't see the weirdness of it all. For those that accept the weirdness and yet obviously continue to embrace the idiosyncrasies you have my respect and sympathy - in equal measures. Happy travelling! Things really can't continues like this.

I hear your frustration, especially as you tried to do the right thing by buying an additional ticket.

I commend your attempt to do the decent thing, however as you've seen, advance tickets are very restrictive and quite literally mean board at station A and leave at station B using this specific train, no ifs, no buts. They were expecting you at Blackpool but instead you boarded at Poulton.

It seems like madness, but it makes sense when you consider that one the perks of a more expensive flexible ticket is the ability to jump on and off along the way which isnt present on a cheaper advance ticket. In the hypothetical situation where someone buys an advance ticket, makes a break of journey, then continues their journey later on (even if on the booked train, having started their journey early), they've taken advantage of a feature that isn't on their ticket, and this is what it will look like to the conductor of the second train. You took advantage of flexible features that were not part of your ticket.

I hear you say "but I bought another ticket!" and indeed, your additional ticket should have fostered some good will if the cost of the original advance ticket + the £4 of the second ticket was greater than the cost of a standard flexible ticket in the first place. But sadly mixing an advance ticket with flexible tickets does not add up to become a flexible ticket. Some (most?) companies allow you you upgrade an advance ticket to a flexible ticket - I have done this before with Great Western - you just pay the difference and they hand you a new ticket. In this instance that is what should have happened.

That said, it sounds like the inspector could have handled it better though. I've often overheard conductors advise customers for next time, which probably would have been the better thing to do, and would have left you not feeling so frustrated at the situation as well as informing you better for next time.

 

[MikeWh]

If that creates anomalies due to e.g. Avanti's outrageous Anytime fares, fix that.

You know full well that the fix for that would penalise the good people of Lancaster and further north who would see a massive increase in fares such that it was ok to join at Preston. Can I ask, how would you react if some simplification resulted in fares you use from Milton Keynes to Euston being increased by 30% or more?