Advice On WMT Penalty Fare Notice

[TMQQKK]

Looking for some advice on if I should appeal my PFN. I purchased 2 tickets for myself and my mate with a two together railcard applied from Sandwell & Dudley to Birmingham New Street on an Avanti service. The digital railcard has both our pictures on and is valid and we both traveled together for the full journey. At Birmingham New Street my mate exited through a different barrier to me as he was going to a different location, however I got stopped by a West Midlands inspector at another barrier on the other side of the station. I got issued a PFN as my mate was not present at the same exit barrier with me so they said my ticket is not valid.


Is it in the t&c that both people must exit at the same barrier? If that is the case I don’t understand why they issue 2 separate tickets and not bind them to 1 e-ticket?
Can a West Midlands inspector issue me a PFN when I didn’t travel on a WMT service?
The reason on my PFN says no ticket. Is that correct as I had a valid ticket and if anything I thought it may say no railcard or something along those line although they did check my railcard.
I actually have a picture of us both on the train. If I appeal and show us both on the train and provide the railcard would that help?

Any advice is massively appreciated as I have never had an issue in 10 years of using trains regularly across the country and have never been issued any fines or penalties before.

 

[WesternLancer]

Looking for some advice on if I should appeal my PFN. I purchased 2 tickets for myself and my mate with a two together railcard applied from Sandwell & Dudley to Birmingham New Street on an Avanti service. The digital railcard has both our pictures on and is valid and we both traveled together for the full journey. At Birmingham New Street my mate exited through a different barrier to me as he was going to a different location, however I got stopped by a West Midlands inspector at another barrier on the other side of the station. I got issued a PFN as my mate was not present at the same exit barrier with me so they said my ticket is not valid.


Is it in the t&c that both people must exit at the same barrier? If that is the case I don’t understand why they issue 2 separate tickets and not bind them to 1 e-ticket?
Can a West Midlands inspector issue me a PFN when I didn’t travel on a WMT service?
The reason on my PFN says no ticket. Is that correct as I had a valid ticket and if anything I thought it may say no railcard or something along those line although they did check my railcard.
I actually have a picture of us both on the train. If I appeal and show us both on the train and provide the railcard would that help?

Any advice is massively appreciated as I have never had an issue in 10 years of using trains regularly across the country and have never been issued any fines or penalties before.

Welcome
I would think it is worth an appeal - what might help is being able to support the appeal with evidence of the 2 tickets bought (do you still have them? - what format were they in - if possible keep them / scan them / screen grab them).

But it will be important for you to get your appeal wording correct - so if you are drafting up what you need to say, post it here before submitting it so Penalty Fare experts on the forum can help you get the wording as clear and accurate as it can be.

In the mean time have a look at the exact wording on the Two Together Railcard T&Cs

What date did this happen and how close to the Appeal deadline (21 days?) are you?

 

[Haywain]

Any advice is massively appreciated

If you are travelling with a railcard discounted ticket you should always be able to show the railcard at the time of a ticket inspection, including at barriers. Without the railcard you do not hold a valid ticket.

 

[enyoueffsea]

One of those where strictly speaking, it’s correct to issue a Penalty Fare. The Inspector doesn’t know you, doesn’t know your friend and has no way of being able to prove you were together.

Common sense would be to follow the advice in post #2 and you’ll be successful with the appeal but with a “don’t do it again” reminder.

Reality is your appeal will probably fail due to the accuracy of post #3.

Nothing to lose in appealing though. Probably down to whoever reviews it on the day. Probably similar to paying for parking but putting the wrong reg in. T&Cs are clear and it’s your error and penalty is a proportionate response. However, sometimes you’ll get away with it.

 

[TMQQKK]

Welcome
I would think it is worth an appeal - what might help is being able to support the appeal with evidence of the 2 tickets bought (do you still have them? - what format were they in - if possible keep them / scan them / screen grab them).

But it will be important for you to get your appeal wording correct - so if you are drafting up what you need to say, post it here before submitting it so Penalty Fare experts on the forum can help you get the wording as clear and accurate as it can be.

In the mean time have a look at the exact wording on the Two Together Railcard T&Cs

What date did this happen and how close to the Appeal deadline (21 days?) are you?

Thank you for the reply. The tickets were purchased through the Virgin Trains Ticketing app and I still have them as E-tickets. The PFN was issued 2 days ago 04/05/25.
I did have a read of the T&Cs but I can’t see anything that mentions having to exit at the same barriers in the destination station which is the part that doesn’t seem to be clarified anywhere.

 

[Hadders]

If both tickets were scanned at the barriers to exit then this will strengthen the chances of an appeal succeeding. It will be very important to get the wording right when you submit the appeal as the person reading it will need to clearly understand what has happened.

I suggest popping a draft of your proposed appeal in this thread so we can assist with getting the wording right.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you are travelling with a railcard discounted ticket you should always be able to show the railcard at the time of a ticket inspection, including at barriers. Without the railcard you do not hold a valid ticket.

actually I don't think we know which one of the 2 people had the Railcard to show when the ticket was checked (ie the OP or their friend)

Thank you for the reply. The tickets were purchased through the Virgin Trains Ticketing app and I still have them as E-tickets. The PFN was issued 2 days ago 04/05/25.
I did have a read of the T&Cs but I can’t see anything that mentions having to exit at the same barriers in the destination station which is the part that doesn’t seem to be clarified anywhere.

Thanks - so you have plenty of time to get your appeal worded up

I suspect the railcard blurb says that you must 'travel together'. If so there is an element of interpretation to that which can be used in your Appeal - and the point made about both being scanned on exit should surely be of help.

Ask your friend in detail how they got out - eg did they place the ticket on the scanner to open the barriers - hopefully they did (as opposed to barriers being open or your friend showing the ticket visually to staff who then opened the barriers manually - such that no scan would have happened)

 

[TMQQKK]

If both tickets were scanned at the barriers to exit then this will strengthen the chances of an appeal succeeding. It will be very important to get the wording right when you submit the appeal as the person reading it will need to clearly understand what has happened.

I suggest popping a draft of your proposed appeal in this thread so we can assist with getting the wording right.

Yes both tickets were scanned, my friends at a barrier and mine by the inspector at another barrier.

I will draft one up and post it here before submitting. Thanks for the help!

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes both tickets were scanned, my friends at a barrier and mine by the inspector at another barrier.

I will draft one up and post it here before submitting. Thanks for the help!

You might want to post up a copy of the actually Penalty Fare notice so that people can see exactly what it states as the grounds for issue.

The Appeal needs to address that issue clearly right at the start.

 

[AlterEgo]

Much easier to appeal on the forgotten railcard policy. The notice doesn’t provide the correct details of what happened anyway, and is noncompliant on that basis.

 

[TMQQKK]

I’ve attached the PFN slip I got given at the time by the inspector

Much easier to appeal on the forgotten railcard policy. The notice doesn’t provide the correct details of what happened anyway, and is noncompliant on that basis.

You might want to post up a copy of the actually Penalty Fare notice so that people can see exactly what it states as the grounds for issue.

The Appeal needs to address that issue clearly right at the start.

 

[matchmaker]

If you are travelling with a railcard discounted ticket you should always be able to show the railcard at the time of a ticket inspection, including at barriers. Without the railcard you do not hold a valid ticket.

I think the OP said that his railcard was inspected.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the OP said that his railcard was inspected.

That fact is not recorded on the penalty fare notice though.

 

[185143]

Unless I'm missing something, Avanti do not have a penalty fare scheme. Have they allowed WMT, or anyone else for that matter, to issue Penalty Fares to their passengers?

The OP travelled on an Avanti service.

 

[TMQQKK]

That fact is not recorded on the penalty fare notice though.

My railcard was checked by the inspector and she saw it was valid at the time and still is until November.
I would have expected the reason on the PFN to say something related to a railcard rather than no ticket as she scanned and checked both tickets in fact as I had them both on my phone as well as my mate having it on his as well.

 

[gray1404]

The penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations as the passenger travelled on an Avanti service. West Midland Railway are unable to issue penalty fares to somebody who has traveled on an Avanti service. There is no agreement in place for them to do so because Avanti do not operate a penalty fare scheme.

 

[furlong]

Multiple grounds that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations, plus the "compelling reasons" if it can be shown that the other ticket was registered at the barrier (and also request CCTV to prove it was the second railcard holder who travelled and not some different person).

- presumably the poster at the origin station did not contain Avanti's logo (check if you can) as well as not including the required wording that's normally missing from notices

- notice is technically non-compliant because some words got truncated off the right-hand side of it so it fails to explain the reduction in the mandated manner under 5(2A)(a)

- the notice must name the operator on whose behalf the PF is charged - it fails to state that WMT was issuing it on behalf of Avanti

10(5) A collector may only charge a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) to a person who is travelling by, present on or leaving a train if the collector has been authorised to charge a penalty fare by the operator of that train.

i.e. there would need to be an agreement in place between WMT and Avanti for WMT to issue PFs on behalf of Avanti (we believe there is no such agreement)

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.
...
(3) In paragraph (1) the reference to “an operator” is to the operator of—
(a) the train which the person in question is travelling by, present on or leaving;
...
5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.
5(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—
...
(d) the name of the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare is charged;

i.e. to be valid, the notice needed to state it was issued by WMT on behalf of Avanti as WMT has no right to issue the notice on its own behalf. (The station is operated by Network Rail.)

 

[LJA]

Maybe not that relevant to this case given the penalty fare looks to be completely invalid, but in general would the requirement to travel together extend all the way to exiting the station?

Eg if my partner was catching an onward train in Birmingham, but I exited the barriers alone (and could produce both tickets and railcard). Would like to think common sense would prevail…

 

[Hadders]

Would like to think common sense would prevail…

The problem is where do you draw the line? This is the sort of thing that any chancer with an invalid ticket wants to see.

A two-Together Railcard requires both people to travel together. Now, I do agree that the well worded appeal should have a good chance of success espacially as both tickets will show a scan out at Birmingham New Street at a similar time, albeit at different gatelines.

 

[Honestviews]

The problem is where do you draw the line? This is the sort of thing that any chancer with an invalid ticket wants to see.

I agree, OP was using it properly but others might try to get around the system.

I think the TOC may also refer to 2.8 of the T&Cs.



"2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel."

If it was a solo travel card you would need to show your railcard (if asked) as you do with the ticket. In my view it's a reasonable interpretation of this clause, combined with the the requirements of travelling together, that you both exit at the same time. Otherwise it's open to abuse.

 

[Alex C.]

Is the niche fraud risk here that someone will go to the trouble of buying two together railcard tickets with someone who will be travelling the same route, on the same day, but not on the same train to save some money?

If so, presenting both tickets at exit where the scan history can be validated should be an easy solution to this problem? Indeed, in this case, the scan history should verify that both tickets were scanned on the train, and then out at barriers. Even if the second ticket wasn't scanned out at a barrier, given the end destination is Birmingham, I think this is one where common sense could definitely be used.

 

[TMQQKK]

Multiple grounds that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations, plus the "compelling reasons" if it can be shown that the other ticket was registered at the barrier (and also request CCTV to prove it was the second railcard holder who travelled and not some different person).

- presumably the poster at the origin station did not contain Avanti's logo (check if you can) as well as not including the required wording that's normally missing from notices

- notice is technically non-compliant because some words got truncated off the right-hand side of it so it fails to explain the reduction in the mandated manner under 5(2A)(a)

- the notice must name the operator on whose behalf the PF is charged - it fails to state that WMT was issuing it on behalf of Avanti


i.e. there would need to be an agreement in place between WMT and Avanti for WMT to issue PFs on behalf of Avanti (we believe there is no such agreement)


i.e. to be valid, the notice needed to state it was issued by WMT on behalf of Avanti as WMT has no right to issue the notice on its own behalf. (The station is operated by Network Rail.)

The penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations as the passenger travelled on an Avanti service. West Midland Railway are unable to issue penalty fares to somebody who has traveled on an Avanti service. There is no agreement in place for them to do so because Avanti do not operate a penalty fare scheme.

The problem is where do you draw the line? This is the sort of thing that any chancer with an invalid ticket wants to see.

A two-Together Railcard requires both people to travel together. Now, I do agree that the well worded appeal should have a good chance of success espacially as both tickets will show a scan out at Birmingham New Street at a similar time, albeit at different gatelines.

Appreciate all the responses thank you!
Would you recommend me basing my appeal on non compliance or based on the fact we did travel together and cctv would be able to prove that along with the tickets being scanned at the station. I’m worried if I write too much it may confuse the issue?

 

[furlong]

All those things. You get 3 appeals so can place the emphasis on different things in different appeals.

Proving you travelled on an Avanti train and as such the notice is not compliant for a multitude of reasons - those would make it mandatory for the appeal to be upheld.

The point about tickets, barrier, CCTV etc. is merely a discretionary ground, where the appeals panel gets to make a decision.

So in a first appeal you should put the emphasis on the mandatory grounds - while still mentioning the discretionary ones. (The reality is that the first 2 appeals panels seem to be more reluctant to uphold appeals on discretionary grounds than the final appeals panel.)

 

[Hadders]

Appreciate all the responses thank you!
Would you recommend me basing my appeal on non compliance or based on the fact we did travel together and cctv would be able to prove that along with the tickets being scanned at the station. I’m worried if I write too much it may confuse the issue?

Personally, for the initial appeal I would simply say that the two of you travelled together but used different exits to leave the station. Enclose a copy of the railcard along with details of both tickets. (I'm assuming that both tickets were scanned when exiting Birmingham New Street).

There's nothing to stop you also mentioning the more technical aspects of the appeal mentioned by @furlong but they are unlikely to consider these at the first stage.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'm assuming that both tickets were scanned when exiting Birmingham New Street

…..and @TMQQKK I’d make it crystal clear for them by clearly asking them to check the times of all the scans on those tickets, rather than assuming they’ll think (or be bothered) to check. It shows you’ve thought it through and are confident in what you’re saying

 

[TMQQKK]

I just wanted to update you all that my appeal was successful! I appreciate all the advice given and thank you all

 

[30907]

I just wanted to update you all that my appeal was successful! I appreciate all the advice given and thank you all

That seems an excellent result - and appropriate in the circumstances.

 

[furlong]

I just wanted to update you all that my appeal was successful! I appreciate all the advice given and thank you all

To help others in future, which grounds did you choose in the end to base the appeal on, and what reasons were given in the decision notice?

 

[Hadders]

This is a good result, thanks for letting us know.

 

[TMQQKK]

To help others in future, which grounds did you choose in the end to base the appeal on, and what reasons were given in the decision notice?

I actually took your advice and based it mainly on the fact that the PFN was non compliant as we travelled on an Avanti West Coast service and the PFN does not state it was issued on behalf of them if that is even possible. I mentioned the reason on the PFN stated no ticket and I believe that to be incorrect as I had a ticket and the issue was with the railcard. I also provided the tickets and railcard as evidence and requested cctv to be checked to show we travelled together.

The response actually doesn’t state any reasons as to why they decided my appeal was successful. It is an independent appeals service and they just purely follow the “Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022” so I presume they just simply agreed that it was non compliant.