Advice with regards to expired Railcard issue

[TeaLovingDave]

My partner and myself use a Two Together Railcard. Our most recent railcard was due to expire on December 9th 2019, so we renewed it online several days previously - until now, we have always received the new card within 2-3 days, but as of the time of writing our new railcard is still yet to arrive. Judging by this article on the BBC website, and conversations we have seen on Twitter, the Railcard system is currently having a number of problems - the late delivery of our railcard, and a number of glitches regarding the upload of new photographs to the card when we applied, will presumably be due to this. We've had no joy contacting the Railcard helpline via telephone, but looking at Twitter very few people have. We haven't tried Twitter yet, as only I have an account and the purchase was made in my partner's name.

Anyway, the particular issue I wanted to ask about is the following: on 14th December 2019 we purchased single tickets from Newcastle to Hexham and (running on automatic) both forgot that the old railcard had expired and that the new railcard had not arrived. As there was a Northern ticket check ongoing on the bridge between platform 3/4 and 5/6/7/8, our tickets were checked before we even reached our train and the expired railcard was pointed out to us. We had to buy new tickets at the full price, which is fair enough, and both our Railcard and the invalid tickets were confiscated. However, due to my issues with anxiety and Aspergers I have subsequently been worrying that (given the fact the Railcard was originally purchased online) despite the fact we didn't travel using the invalid tickets and purchased new tickets from the Northern inspector on the bridge, our contact details could be tracked down using the confiscated Railcard in order to escalate the matter. So:

1) Is it likely that this could happen?
2) If it does not happen, will the expired Railcard be destroyed promptly? Part of the reason I have been worrying is that when it was confiscated I asked the inspector if they had scissors to destroy it in front of us so we could keep the half with our faces on, which they didn't. It later occurred to me that this could have made us look suspicious/strange.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don't think you have anything to worry about. As your old card was due to expire on 9 December, you applied for a new one 'several days' previously and ran into trouble on 14 December, you have followed the railway's guidance at https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/buying-online/

How long do I have to wait for my Railcard to arrive?
A:

If you are buying your Railcard online we will despatch it within one working day, and send it free by UK Mail. Please allow fiveworking days for your Railcard to arrive. (...)

Added to which, as you have already found, the railway know that they are having problems. See (for example)https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...bcard-customers-left-unable-to-get-railcards/

What do Tesco and the Rail Delivery Group say?
On social media, Tesco has said: "We are currently experiencing technical issues with railcard products and you will be unable to complete your order at this time. Railcard are working to fix this as quickly as possible. We apologise for any inconvenience caused."

The Rail Delivery Group says it has moved to new systems for its website and customer database. It says that while in the longer term this should make buying and using a railcard quicker, in the short term there may be technical issues.

So what does this mean in practice? Firstly, from what we see here, the railway virtually never pursues a case when they haven't specifically taken a name and address - which seems to be your position. Secondly, if on this occasion they do, then the fact that they are in an acknowledged mess will encourage them to show discretion and not go any further. Thirdly, if they challenge you, you can demonstrate that you followed their guidance from their website by allowing time for a new card to be delivered.

If somehow they do manage to pursue you and want a response, you have done the right thing in noting what happened so that you can respond if challenged. But while it may be difficult to stop worrying, I think you can do that - you have done everything that you can at this point, and can now safely ignore the matter.

 

[Intermodal]

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. I am involved in revenue protection and whenever I come across an expired railcard that is being used I always take possession of it, even if it was only an accident (which most incidents seem to be - a couple of weeks out of date). The railcard goes into my pocket and is destroyed at the end of my shift. After all, the railcard is no longer of any use to you and it is not your property - so why would you want it anymore?

I can assure you that the revenue protection staff involved will have considered this matter closed and dealt with as soon as you purchased new tickets. The advice to revenue protection staff is that if you suspect any sort of foul play then tickets should not be sold to the passenger and instead a report made with the passenger's details for consideration of prosecution. Once railway staff sell a ticket to a passenger and they wilfully purchase it then it becomes significantly harder to prove any attempt to evade the fare. Your penalty in this case was that of purchasing a new ticket and I would be extremely surprised (shocked, even) if any more action was taken - especially as no name/address was taken.

Consider it akin to getting a warning at the road side from the nice police officer for speeding as opposed to them writing you up a ticket.

 

[jumble]

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. I am involved in revenue protection and whenever I come across an expired railcard that is being used I always take possession of it, even if it was only an accident (which most incidents seem to be - a couple of weeks out of date). The railcard goes into my pocket and is destroyed at the end of my shift. After all, the railcard is no longer of any use to you and it is not your property - so why would you want it anymore?

t.

I think it is rather unkind to confiscate the persons railcard as if you let them have it back they can reuse the photograph on the new one if they decide to buy a replacement railcard on the spot.
Otherwise the unfortunate customer of yours has to waste their time and money finding a photo both for no reason.;

( The dreaded Euston Gateline did not take my son's out of date railcard a few weeks ago but sent him off to the ticket office to buy a new one)

 

[Intermodal]

I think it is rather unkind to confiscate the persons railcard as if you let them have it back they can reuse the photograph on the new one if they decide to buy a replacement railcard on the spot.
Otherwise the unfortunate customer of yours has to waste their time and money finding a photo both for no reason.;

( The dreaded Euston Gateline did not take my son's out of date railcard a few weeks ago but sent him off to the ticket office to buy a new one)

Well it's not for no reason is it - they've attempted to use it to potentially defraud the railway of a fare, whether accidental or not. I don't wish to discriminate against people so I take all expired railcards whether I suspect foul play or not, therefore clearing myself of any allegations that I am picking on someone or accusing them of anything.

I find most people buy their railcards online and as such no physical photo is required. If someone asked me to have their railcard back to reuse the photo and they seemed genuine I would certainly consider this. At the end of the day though, if you really wished to retain possession of an expired railcard then all would be required would be to not use it past it's expiry date, which you would've been aware of for a minimum of a year.

 

[jumble]

Your point about discrimination is not something that had occurred to me.
I accept on reflection in fairness there is a big difference between stopping someone who has been stopped at the gateline not allowed to travel and advised to go buy a railcard there and then and you catching someone on the train is possibly going to try and use it again to leave the destination station.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I really wouldn't worry too much about it.

Thanks for the reassurance - I'm just a little bit prone to anxiety and over-thinking things :P

After all, the railcard is no longer of any use to you and it is not your property - so why would you want it anymore?

Well, in my case I usually *do* keep old railcards, tickets and so forth for a memory scrapbook - but in this particular case the reason I asked if it were possible for the card to be destroyed in front of us so we could retain the photo half was more an impulsive/irrational worry about our names and photographs being out of our possession :P

 

[gray1404]

What is concerning though is that they took the railcard discounted ticket from you. This prevents you requesting a refund of the unused tickets once you had purchased new ones. They should not be taking the tickets from you in these circumstances. Did they issue a receipt for the fact they'd taken tickets from you?

 

[Intermodal]

What is concerning though is that they took the railcard discounted ticket from you. This prevents you requesting a refund of the unused tickets once you had purchased new ones. They should not be taking the tickets from you in these circumstances. Did they issue a receipt for the fact they'd taken tickets from you?

Why would a refund be due?

 

[gray1404]

Why would a refund be due?

Why wouldn't it be due?

 

[bb21]

Can we stop sidetracking the discussion please?

 

[bb21]

Thanks for the reassurance - I'm just a little bit prone to anxiety and over-thinking things :P



Well, in my case I usually *do* keep old railcards, tickets and so forth for a memory scrapbook - but in this particular case the reason I asked if it were possible for the card to be destroyed in front of us so we could retain the photo half was more an impulsive/irrational worry about our names and photographs being out of our possession :P

There is a retail update from Rail Delivery Group recently to all Train Operators regarding this issue so all revenue protection staff should be aware of the problem and exercise discretion accordingly.

 

[gray1404]

The OP purchased 2 railcard discounted tickets. On the date of travel they were not carrying their railcard so were required to purchase new tickets. They had already renewed their railcard days before this point.

One view is that this should be treated as a failure to carry the railcard on the day in question. In which case, the OP is allowed to send both sets of tickets in along with a copy of the railcard and receive a refund on the additional tickets they were required to purchase. The industry rules allow for a customer to do this.

An alternative view is that as they hadn't received their new railcard yet, they should not have purchased railcard discounted tickets and travel on full priced ones. In that case, they are still entitled to apply for a refund on the discounted tickets as they have not been used. Either way, the original set of tickets should not have been taken from them in these circumstances.

Given the apparent ongoing problems with issuing of railcards purchased online at the time, it is not unreasonable to expect some level of discretion to be shown towards the OP and, at the very least, they receive a fee free refund of the railcard discounted tickets. However, they are greatly hindered doing either of the above in the absence of the original tickets.

The OP may wish to see if they, given their medication conditions described, qualify for a Disabled Person's Railcard (subject to getting certain benefits etc). See their website. This is cheaper and does not require a photo. It also does not carry and time restrictions and the OP can use this when travelling alone or with another person (both get the discount). It does not need to be the same person each time. A 3 year railcard is offered which is cheaper and takes away the need to renew annually.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The OP may wish to see if they, given their medication conditions described, qualify for a Disabled Person's Railcard (subject to getting certain benefits etc). See their website. This is cheaper and does not require a photo. It also does not carry and time restrictions and the OP can use this when travelling alone for when with another person (both get the discount).

Autism is not an eligible condition I believe in any case, even if it were I'm pretty high functioning and receive no benefits. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I have no problem with the discounted tickets having been confiscated anyhow, and it sounds like I almost certainly have no need to worry, so I think the thread can be closed now? In the very low chance problems arise I'll just message a moderator asking them to reopen the thread.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

(Oh, and given the fact I don't want to be left to the vagaries of the ongoing issues with the Railcard system over Christmas my partner and myself plan to just buy a new one in person at NCL and try to chase up a refund for the undelivered one)

 

[Intermodal]

Why wouldn't it be due?

Apologies, I had got confused that the actual case that the thread is discussing did have a railcard and just did not have it on them/had no received it, so of course a refund may be due. I was thinking they had let it expire as per the other person I was discussing with.

 

[Wombat]

This thread reminded me to renew my own Two Together card, so thank you Dave!

The website does appear to be shonky. On my first three attempts it only allowed me to upload one photo. Out of curiosity I followed one of those attempts to the payment process, so I assume that it would have allowed me to pay for a card omitted my wife's photo. On the fourth attempt it worked as expected. Now I only have to worry about the app and the server working properly...