Airdrie-Bathgate: Bob Crowe's being idiotic again

[Mojo]

I trust our Caledonian friends will be lobbying their MSPs then?

 

[O L Leigh]

So does that mean that I can't comment?

Comment away.

My point is that the rail staff contributing to this thread actually understand why this distinction between guard and revenue is important. Everyone else is just worried about who controls the doors and whether or not there is a body in uniform to make them feel safe. The former is the issue here, not the latter.

In any case, in an attempt to try and drag this thread back to the original point, this isn't just about what happens between Airdrie and Bathgate. If DOO is the method of working, then fine. However, although DOO is acceptably safe it is not the safest method of working, and that applies everywhere. Trying to soften the blow by suggesting that revenue can carry out protection of the line just muddies the waters and opens up a whole different can of worms.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Isn't it odd that someone can argue all the cases for having a guard or on-board staff, yet so much of England and Wales is DOO!

If they can argue this in Scotland, surely the rest of the UK should be having people on the trains for the same reasons, OR the successful operation of DOO elsewhere disproves all of the arguments used for guards.

Personally, I'd quite like to see staff on trains everywhere as it would make many people feel safer and help protect revenue. If it was made a condition of a franchise, the TOC would not to worry about another company undercutting by cutting staff as it wouldn't be an option. It would be a known cost from day one, and no doubt subsidised by the Government and all tax payers, not just the people buying the tickets.

 

[O L Leigh]

Isn't it odd that someone can argue all the cases for having a guard or on-board staff, yet so much of England and Wales is DOO!

I don't think DOO is as widespread as perhaps you imagine. Just because it's an MU-based commuter railway does not necessarily mean that it's trains are DOO. For example, FCC is but LM isn't. Southern and SET are but SWT is not.

As for Wales, I'd be surprised if many of their services are DOO.

If they can argue this in Scotland, surely the rest of the UK should be having people on the trains for the same reasons, OR the successful operation of DOO elsewhere disproves all of the arguments used for guards.

Firstly, whether or not DOO is a success is a moot point. There haven't been any major incidents as a direct consequence of this method of working, but then there haven't been that many major incidents anyway as a general consequence of the safety record of the railways generally. However, we can never afford to be complacent. The true safety of DOO working has not yet been tested, though I am thankful that it has not. But this doesn't mean that such an incident isn't just around the corner.

I am still very confused and not a little concerned by the precise nature of the staffing of trains north of the border. Consequently I am very hesitant about endorseing any expansion of such a form of working.

Personally, I'd quite like to see staff on trains everywhere as it would make many people feel safer and help protect revenue. If it was made a condition of a franchise, the TOC would not to worry about another company undercutting by cutting staff as it wouldn't be an option. It would be a known cost from day one, and no doubt subsidised by the Government and all tax payers, not just the people buying the tickets.

So would I. Having someone on-board to be a presence and to check tickets would be a massive boon by ensuring revenue and deterring anti-social behaviour. But then, as I said, if you're going to have someone on-board to do that, why not put guards on so that you have the extra layer of safety that a second safety-critical member of staff provides.

O L Leigh

 

[Greenback]

There are no DOO services in Wales. Every service has a condctor, who, I assume is fully traned in revenue and train protectin duties.

 

[royaloak]

DOO would make sense on the route to EDB. Its an extension to the electric network which is already DOO operated so...Also no jobs will be going, staff from EDB will be moved to another depot if they wish or another solution.

Or its an extention of the Edinburgh to Bathgate service which have guards on board.
The GUARDS jobs from Edinburgh to Bathgate will be going, and why do you think it is acceptable to have to move depots, it isnt that easy you know!

 

[Failed Unit]

Or its an extention of the Edinburgh to Bathgate service which have guards on board.
The GUARDS jobs from Edinburgh to Bathgate will be going, and why do you think it is acceptable to have to move depots, it isnt that easy you know!

I would suggest it is an extension of the Airdrie service simply because of the use of the EMU's. I think the gaurds on working the existing Edinburgh - Bathgate service are going to be safe, there are only 3 of them physically on the line anyway and with the service expansions in Scotland there will be a lot of work for them. As far as I am aware all the gaurds work out of Edinburgh, there are no staff based on the line.

In a typical day the unit will do the following (which I know is very different to what the staff may do).

1029 arrives from Dunblane,
1048 Leave for Bathgate from Edinburgh (arrive 1118)
1124 Leave Bathgate to Edinburgh (arrive 1155)
1203 Departs toward Dunblane.

Even if these was no gaurds position for these 3, I suspect it would be extremely unlike they would be at risk of losing thier jobs. There will be more driving positons available, natural wasteage etc.

Before you flame me I am trying to stay out of the is DOO a good thing debate, who opens the doors on the 334's when they are on the Ayrshire lines?

 

[royaloak]

Don't worry Failed Unit I wont flame you, FWIW I agree that it is an extension to the electric service, it was just the way FSR was so dismissive of peoples jobs (they can move depots).

To other posters-
Southern are DOO in London but once you get out of the suburban area (not sure of limits) they have GUARDS on board, can anybody say EXACTLY where DOO is working in England and Wales, don't think there is that much.

Side note, I did shorten your name Failed Unit but thought better of it .

 

[Greenback]

There must surely be more than 3 guards to operate what is a half hourly service 0603 to 2348 Mon-Sat, and hourly on Sundays betwenn 0903 and 2348? That's 122 operating hours over seven days!

They must be integrated with other routes and I hope the depot will be able to absorb the loss of work.

 

[Failed Unit]

There must surely be more than 3 guards to operate what is a half hourly service 0603 to 2348 Mon-Sat, and hourly on Sundays betwenn 0903 and 2348? That's 122 operating hours over seven days!

They must be integrated with other routes and I hope the depot will be able to absorb the loss of work.

It is definately intergrated into other lines, from the unit point of view it is normally Edinburgh - Dunblane - Edinburgh - Bathgate - Edinburgh - Dunblane.

I am sure the staff appear on any service out of Edinburgh, I don't claim to know their rosters but I suspect they go to Glasgow, Fife etc during their working days.

My point was that only 3 gaurds are physically working bathgate services at one time, not that only 3 gaurds work the service, big difference.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To other posters-
Southern are DOO in London but once you get out of the suburban area (not sure of limits) they have GUARDS on board, can anybody say EXACTLY where DOO is working in England and Wales, don't think there is that much.

I have a feeling that will have some close relationship to routes that were operated by slammers in the past. Saying that I am sure the former Thameslink route has gaurds south of the river.

 

[djw1981]

They may have to move depot anyway with reportedly staff for A-B being based at Bathgate instead of Edinburgh, and Stirling staff no longer signing Bathgate line.

 

[Greenback]

My point was that only 3 gaurds are physically working bathgate services at one time, not that only 3 gaurds work the service, big difference.

Ah, I see what you meant now. I once had a look at the Cardiff Valleys guards diagrams, and found them fascinating. Couldn;t work out how many actual guards were needed to work a particular route because of the way the rosters covered several different routes on one duty.

 

[313103]

Saying that I am sure the former Thameslink route has gaurds south of the river.

Affraid they dont, ALL FCC services are doo.

 

[Pumbaa]

To other posters-
Southern are DOO in London but once you get out of the suburban area (not sure of limits) they have GUARDS on board, can anybody say EXACTLY where DOO is working in England and Wales, don't think there is that much.

- All FCC services
- Southern Metro services (ie inner London usually worked by 455/456)
- NXEA metro? I'm not sure.

 

[87015]

- NXEA metro? I'm not sure.

All of West Anglia, Southend/Southminster/Shenfields, mainline to Ipswich (incl 170s but not LHCS sets), Upminster and Braintree branches.

 

[Metroland]

First Great Western commuter services and Chiltern as far as Banbury

 

[O L Leigh]

My point was that only 3 gaurds are physically working bathgate services at one time, not that only 3 gaurds work the service, big difference.

Perhaps so, but that still means that the relevant depot is losing at least 6 guard's worth of work per day (assuming the guards only work two shifts to cover the Bathgate service).

O L Leigh