Airport expansions

[camflyer]

I also heard an interview with Willie Walsh on the radio. He was surprisingly lukewarm about expanding Heathrow and much more enthusiastic about expanding Gatwick, manly because of greater speed and greater certainty.

Mostly due to costs. Airlines would love the chance to make more money at Heathrow but they don't want to pay for it in higher fees.

 

[AlastairFraser]

*checks lettuce*

 

[BrianW]

Yes politicians will always be hypocritical and be nimbys in their own places and yimbys everywhere else. Keir done the same with HS2.

We have to build infrastructure in someone's backyard for the national interest, otherwise we build nothing at all and nothing ever gets better

It's up to the government to cut red tape and deregulate. Big infrastructure for the national interest should not be subject to local opposition.

The speech did include a proposal to reopen Doncaster/Sheffield airport.

I would like to look at Heathrow figures quoted by the Chancellor in the speech but I haven't found a full transcript yet.

Doncaster- is that in Ed Milliband's back yard?

Heathrow's in a lot of folk's backyards, and MPs; but there has long been local support of the good jobs there. Noise is not what it was 'back in the day' of Trident, VC 10, Concorde etc. Agreed that Air quality and carbon emissions are 'issues' tho' technological innovation- sustainable fuels etc- offers hope and could be a matter for 'sensitive environmental controls'- no bats or newts in the M25 tunnels?? I dare say many residents of Richmond, Windsor and Surrey make use of Heathrow flights.

 

[Magdalia]

Doncaster- is that in Ed Milliband's back yard?

Yes Ed Miliband is MP for Doncaster North.

could be a matter for 'sensitive environmental controls'- no bats or newts in the M25 tunnels??

This is what the chancellor has to say about bats and newts (yes the newts did get a mention):

The problems in our economy…

… the lack of bold reform that we have seen over decades…

… can be summed up by a £100 million bat tunnel built for HS2…

… the type of decision that has made delivering major infrastructure in our country far too expensive and far too slow.

So we are reducing the environmental requirements placed on developers when they pay into the nature restoration fund that we have created…

…so they can focus on getting things built, and stop worrying about bats and newts.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes Ed Miliband is MP for Doncaster North

Same Ed thats been anti airport expansion for last decade and is our net zero evangelist is now suddenly all for airports when it suits his needs.

 

[Ghostbus]

Airport expansion, planning reform, expedited judicial review, people over bats, rainforests over wetlands, rebuild the grid, build new towns, high speed rail, railways as a public service, decarbonise energy and transport, go for growth, GPS powered ATC, clean concrete, electric trucks, electric excavators, fifteen minute neighbourhoods, generational strategic investments, international construction groups, London for sale.....

I can't help but imagine an alternative universe where we're all flying in and out of London via Blair Island and HSXRail on silent plastic Airbuses, all built with minimal carbon cost, operated with maximum efficiency and net positive, staffed by people all living within the local area, all powered by an offshore windfarm and solar fields with Dunganess 5 in reserve, all future proofed to see us through to the point at which, where we're going, we don't need wings. Or the world has burnt to a cinder.

 

[Magdalia]

Same Ed thats been anti airport expansion for last decade and is our net zero evangelist is now suddenly all for airports when it suits his needs.

Cabinet collective responsibility is paragraph 1.6a of the ministerial code and a long standing component of the UK constitution.

 

[Tetchytyke]

also heard an interview with Willie Walsh on the radio. He was surprisingly lukewarm about expanding Heathrow and much more enthusiastic about expanding Gatwick, manly because of greater speed and greater certainty.

BA have always been lukewarm on Heathrow expansion. They know they’ll end up footing the bill whilst their competitors will end up getting the benefit of the extra slots. I know Walsh isn’t technically at BA/IAG any more, but…

This is what the chancellor has to say about bats and newts (yes the newts did get a mention)

I’m so glad we got rid of the Conservatives and replaced them with this lot. More lies. The HS2 white elephant isn’t expensive because of bats, it’s expensive because the management behind the HS2 white elephant would struggle to run a hot bath.

It’s like Labour actually want Farage to win the next election.

Yes quite likely, although if Chinese got build contract, would probably be built within 2 years

The Chinese only get stuff built so fast because anyone who complains about things like planning law and the safety of workers finds themselves mysteriously disappearing mysteriously.

 

[pug1]

Leeds is not runway slot constrained, but there will be a need for more terminal capacity in the region in the not too distant future. The imperative to expand Leeds [compared to Heathrow] is diminished because there’s another airport with a nice long runway not too far away, and it is currently completely unused at the moment but could be reactivated quickly - and the local council wants it to be. Leeds doesn’t rely on connecting traffic - its a point-to-point airport. Thus it is more viable to deliver additional capacity from a runway and terminal a few miles to the southeast, than it would be if Leeds was a hub.

I’ve already pointed out why Heathrow needs a third runway and produced real data to back up my assertion: at most times of day there are no runway slots available, and very little passenger capacity unaccounted for within the terminals. Heathrow is a hub, so airlines that rely on the network business model can’t always as viably offer extra capacity from a few miles down the road instead.

That unused runway you’re talking about, looks like Mr O’Leary poured cold water on that one earlier. ‘Our growth is Leeds not Doncaster, nobody lives near it’.

The mere assumption that DSA could become a hub is laughable, it couldn’t even half fill a daily flight to Amsterdam! Oh but what if they put I. The ECML loop to the airport? Well the £300million requested for that project in 2020 money was deemed non-viable, certainly not viable now.

A decision needs to be made, be it by Government, airline pressure groups or LHR themselves as to whether to build the third runway or not. But I can tell you with absolute certainty that if there’s no third runway there’ll be no hub growth in the U.K., nobody will build a new London mega airport and the regions cannot hope to support a hub operation. Anyone claiming otherwise is badly mistaken.

 

[Airline Man]

Well all be long dead by the time they build a third runway at Heathrow.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Same Ed thats been anti airport expansion for last decade and is our net zero evangelist is now suddenly all for airports when it suits his needs.

Cabinet collective responsibility is paragraph 1.6a of the ministerial code and a long standing component of the UK constitution.

Absolutely the point I thought of when I read that comment! I imagine Miliband the younger is not all that keen, but he'll keep that to himself.

I suspect that like others who might be in similar positions to him, he might just hope that the third runway gets so bogged down in the long grass of Harmondsworth Moor that it never gets going.

Mayor Sadiq will oppose, and I'd guess the GLA will be party to a legal case against, but I suspect Khan himself probably won't offer/promise to "lie down in front of those bulldozers"... who knows what the man who originally uttered those words actually believes, but either way it's of meagre relevance now.

 

[JonathanH]

A sensible move by the Committee, Government now needs to commit to new transport links to Heathrow to compliment the third runway. At the very least, the Western Rail Link and Southern Rail Link should be built, to boost connections and Links to Heathrow. To not invest in new links to Heathrow would be detrimental.

Big infrastructure for the national interest should not be subject to local opposition.

That for me is the short sighted part of this. Given the lack of available finance, the government has to look to projects which the private sector is prepared to pay for. Heathrow expansion is clearly one of those. However, the cost of providing railways or roads into the airport would fall on the public sector and consequently needs public funds. So perhaps it isn't the ideal project to promote.

 

[BrianW]

Airport expansion, planning reform, expedited judicial review, people over bats, rainforests over wetlands, rebuild the grid, build new towns, high speed rail, railways as a public service, decarbonise energy and transport, go for growth, GPS powered ATC, clean concrete, electric trucks, electric excavators, fifteen minute neighbourhoods, generational strategic investments, international construction groups, London for sale.....

I can't help but imagine an alternative universe where we're all flying in and out of London via Blair Island and HSXRail on silent plastic Airbuses, all built with minimal carbon cost, operated with maximum efficiency and net positive, staffed by people all living within the local area, all powered by an offshore windfarm and solar fields with Dunganess 5 in reserve, all future proofed to see us through to the point at which, where we're going, we don't need wings. Or the world has burnt to a cinder.

Oink, oink! Ready for take off ...

 

[Cross City]

I’m so glad we got rid of the Conservatives and replaced them with this lot.

I thought you lived in the Isle of Man and therefore not eligible to vote in UK elections?

Her and the prime minister are fighting for their lives

Despite what you read in the Telegraph and on Twitter... no they're not.

 

[jfollows]

I thought you lived in the Isle of Man and therefore not eligible to vote in UK elections?

Former British citizens living in the Isle of Man have permanent right to vote in UK elections, there used to be a time limit but the Conservatives abolished it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I thought you lived in the Isle of Man and therefore not eligible to vote in UK elections?

I’m eligible to vote in UK elections as an overseas British citizen.

Anyway.

I notice Reeves has also promised to reopen Doncaster Airport. That’s even more of a dumb idea. The place died because nobody lived near it and it was therefore too inconvenient to get to. I suppose the advantage of promoting Doncaster is that you can then tell Leeds they won’t get to expand. You can see how someone who lives near Leeds airport would like that.

The best thing they can do to Doncaster Airport is bulldoze it and build 5000 houses on it.

 

[thejuggler]

It's up to the government to cut red tape and deregulate. Big infrastructure for the national interest should not be subject to local opposition.

There's a fine line between cutting red tape, deregulation and future negligence claims. Grenfell is a prime example.

A lot of current red tape is to deal with issues when there was no red tape and whilst there is a lot of talk about bats and newts that's minor compared to dealing with past operations on land, pollution and contamination.

 

[DMckduck]

Despite what you read in the Telegraph and on Twitter... no they're not.

It's a soundbite to ease the pressure for the time being and to look like something is being done. Planning applications by the end of this government in 2029, we are looking at 6 full election cycles come and gone before it realistically would be completed maybe more.

That is if it was to actually happen, which let's face it, won't happen.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The best thing they can do to Doncaster Airport is bulldoze it and build 5000 houses on it.

Is that all? It's a 300 hectare site, I'd be looking for nearer 10,000 houses and a reopening of Finningley station.

That for me is the short sighted part of this. Given the lack of available finance, the government has to look to projects which the private sector is prepared to pay for. Heathrow expansion is clearly one of those. However, the cost of providing railways or roads into the airport would fall on the public sector and consequently needs public funds. So perhaps it isn't the ideal project to promote.

Even the project's promoters reckon that the third runway at Heathrow would need £6 billion of public funds for the supporting infrastructure. Opponents reckon it might be up to £18 billion.

Worth noting that plans for Heathrow Airport to expand north of Bath Road predate the airport actually opening!

 

[frodshamfella]

Heathrow is a brilliant place for an airport. It's why airlines will spend millions and millions of pounds on slots there.

Right on the M4 corridor. On the Underground and Liz line. Relatively close to central London.


It's a significantly smaller and poorer market than Manchester.

Enough to sustain sun flights across Europe with multiple airlines? Yes.

But that doesn't distract from the facts.

Also, Manchester is more centrally located for north, Yorkshire, the north Midlands. Liverpool is next to the sea.



Well, for one, they aren't.

And secondly, airlines and passengers will vote with their wallets.



Airports are huge job creators. Yes, some will be cleaning bogs. But there are also lots of better paid jobs.

Even 'menial' jobs like security start at £14.21 at Heathrow. Not a bad wage for a job with no qualification requirements.

There are then plenty of better paid more skilled jobs.

That's not how catchment areas work, they are similar, just saying its by the sea, so is JFK. Liverpool is a growing airport and attracts many passenger from Manchester and has spare land to grow, more than Manchester.

 

[Snow1964]

Watched a Rachel Reeves interview today on TV news.

Asked about Heathrow third runway, she said looking forward to seeing spades in the ground (her choice of words). Then said Government expect to issue a Development Consent Order by End of this Parliament (which could be mid 2029)

What a shambols, yesterday it was urgent project to assist growth, now they might take 4 years to sign off few pages of paperwork, even though the outline was drafted during Teresa May's Government. Planning delays at its worst.

 

[BrianW]

I'm hoping to see a former MP for Uxbridge lying (down) in front of a JCB driven by Lord Bamford, who must surely have done his bit supported by builders- not- blockers.

All words and no action. Where is King Johnson holding back the tide now?

 

[jfollows]

I'm hoping to see a former MP for Uxbridge lying (down) in front of a JCB driven by Lord Bamford, who must surely have done his bit supported by builders- not- blockers.

All words and no action. Where is King Johnson holding back the tide now?

Ummm … he lied.
No surprise there!
But you know that ……

 

[weeklycommuter]

I now have a link to the full transcript of the speech, which is here:

Chancellor vows to go further and faster to kickstart economic growth

Chancellor of the Exchequer Rachel Reeves spoke at Siemens Healthineers in Oxfordshire on 29 January 2025.

www.gov.uk

The transcript includes the following claim which is clearly incorrect as the second runway at Manchester Airport is a full length runway and opened in 2001. This obvious error brings the entire speech including the declared support for a third runway at Heathrow Airport into disrepute and sends the message that the country is run by a class of mandarins who know nothing about and have no interest in anywhere outside London and the South East of England.

The last full length runway in Britain was built in the 1940s.
No progress in eighty years.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The transcript includes the following claim which is clearly incorrect as the second runway at Manchester Airport is a full length runway and opened in 2001. This obvious error brings the entire speech including the declared support for a third runway at Heathrow Airport into disrepute and sends the message that the country is run by a class of mandarins who know nothing about and have no interest in anywhere outside London and the South East of England.

oh and their electrifying the Wigan-Bolton line apparently seems she didn't check that its actually completed and was authorised by the previous government

 

[Skymonster]

A shame a mistake was made as it can now (is now) being used by the naysayers to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). But an inconsistency in the speech is irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that Heathrow needs a third runway because its full, and the UK needs a larger Heathrow as a gateway to the world to ensure links can be developed with faster growing parts of the world.

On a wide note, I am dismayed that there are people in this country who would rather see us become regressive and isolated from the global stage, rather than have the opportunity to ride along with prosperity elsewhere and maybe even lead. To enable the country exploit opportunities to the full, it needs to be connected by air and that runway needs to be built. Internal projects such as HS2 are mere introspective navel gazing in comparison.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A shame a mistake was made as it can now (is now) being used by the naysayers to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). But an inconsistency in the speech is irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that Heathrow needs a third runway because its full, and the UK needs a larger Heathrow as a gateway to the world to ensure links can be developed with faster growing parts of the world.

On a wide note, I am dismayed that there are people in this country who would rather see us become regressive and isolated from the global stage, rather than have the opportunity to ride along with prosperity elsewhere and maybe even lead. To enable the country exploit opportunities to the full, it needs to be connected by air and that runway needs to be built. Internal projects such as HS2 are mere introspective navel gazing in comparison.

by the time its built if it ever is we wont have planes anymore if we are truly going to be Net Zero which we aren't of course

 

[Skymonster]

by the time its built if it ever is we wont have planes anymore if we are truly going to be Net Zero

That’s one thing I’m not too worried by at the moment. Net zero is just a proxy for a radical socialist agenda. The drive for it is thankfully crumbling already and will get greater now more people are realising it as time goes by.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That’s one thing I’m not too worried by at the moment. Net zero is just a proxy for a radical socialist agenda. The drive for it is thankfully crumbling already and will get greater now more people are realising it as time goes by.

Well im worried mad Milibrain full on onslaught into making the electricity system NZ by 2030 although again not going to happen but his madness is going to leave a lot of collateral damage in its wake and more expensive bills.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Interestingly, Rachel Reeves has reversed her opposition to the expansion of her local airport, Leeds Bradford:

The Chancellor has said she would now support the expansion of Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA), saying "the way we fly has changed".

As Leeds West MP, Reeves had opposed proposals for a new terminal at the Yorkshire site over environmental and noise concerns.

On Wednesday, Reeves announced the government's backing of a third runway at London Heathrow and the re-opening of the Doncaster Sheffield airport, citing the progress of "sustainable aviation" since the pandemic.

In 2022, LBA's £150m scheme to develop a new terminal was abandoned over planning delays, in favour of an earlier proposal to regenerate the current terminal.

Speaking in Yorkshire following the government decision to back a third runway at Heathrow, the chancellor said "sustainable aviation and economic growth go hand-in-hand".She defended her previous position of opposing the Leeds Bradford expansion, insisting "a lot has changed since 2020 when those plans last came forward - no one was flying because it was during the pandemic, but also the way we fly has changed".

She added: "Engines have become more efficient, and sustainable aviation fuel means we can reduce the carbon emissions from flying.

"Sustainable aviation fuel reduces carbon emissions by 70% and that mandate came in at the beginning of this year," she said, on Thursday.

The Leeds West and Pudsey MP also highlighted the benefits the Heathrow expansion would have on the rest of the UK "because the availability of slots at Heathrow is good for regional airports wanting to connect with the rest of the world".

Chancellor changes mind over Leeds Bradford Airport expansion - BBC News

Rachel Reeves has said she would now support any expansion, despite previously opposing the plans.

www.bbc.co.uk

She must see that supporting expansion of Heathrow and being against expansion of her local airport comes across as very hypocritical.