All Creatures Great and Small #2

[30907]

The thread from the first series is locked so a new one.

Channel 5 have obviously increased their budget for this second series - tonight's episode (filmed at Keighley) had 3 working locos (TVR 85, 52044, (4)5596, plus (4)3924 not in steam, and a host of extras. Not to mention a number of creative adaptations of the station. Didn't run to covering up the lion-and-wheel on either tender though

 

[John Luxton]

The thread from the first series is locked so a new one.

Channel 5 have obviously increased their budget for this second series - tonight's episode (filmed at Keighley) had 3 working locos (TVR 85, 52044, (4)5596, plus (4)3924 not in steam, and a host of extras. Not to mention a number of creative adaptations of the station. Didn't run to covering up the lion-and-wheel on either tender though

Not seen this episode yet but they did manage to cover up the Royal Blue fleet names with fictitious ones on the 1948 Bristol L6A which was picking up the TA soldiers in the last episode! It is owned by the Aire Valley Transport Group. Strange they should make the effort with the coach but not the loco.

 

[30907]

Not seen this episode yet but they did manage to cover up the Royal Blue fleet names with fictitious ones on the 1948 Bristol L6A which was picking up the TA soldiers in the last episode! It is owned by the Aire Valley Transport Group. Strange they should make the effort with the coach but not the loco.

The tenders weren't in close up, but in any case Bahamas was in BR Green so putting LMS on the side would have been even more obvious.
Someone has spotted a digital clock (on the NR side I presume) but I missed that!

 

[Bevan Price]

The tenders weren't in close up, but in any case Bahamas was in BR Green so putting LMS on the side would have been even more obvious.
Someone has spotted a digital clock (on the NR side I presume) but I missed that!

And BR Standard coaching stock in use (Non-corridor, and Mark 1 coaches ), for a story set in circa 1939.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Assuming the relevant part(s) of the programme were filmed entirely at Keighley, what available K&WVR rolling stock, contemporary to the late 1930s (or earlier), could the storytellers have used?

 

[midland1]

The letter the son wrote to his mum told here to meet at the "train" station would never have said that in 1939.

 

[swt_passenger]

The letter the son wrote to his mum told here to meet at the "train" station would never have said that in 1939.

I thought he should not have been wearing a white cap with the ship‘s name on the cap tally, but perhaps that came later in WW2. (Not a railway topic of course.)

But I’d agree they did put a bit of effort into the station scenes, with quite a significant number of extras around, as well as the locos and trains as already mentioned.

 

[Calthrop]

The letter the son wrote to his mum told here to meet at the "train" station would never have said that in 1939.

"Kid-speak", maybe? I don't get apoplectic about "train", instead of "railway, station"; but its perceived childishness mildly annoys me -- still: many parents have, in the present and the past, made allowances language-wise for their young offspring -- even in 1939 !

 

[Gloster]

I thought he should not have been wearing a white cap with the ship‘s name on the cap tally, but perhaps that came later in WW2. (Not a railway topic of course.)

I have not seen the programme, but if this is about Navy sailors having ‘H.M.S.Whotsit’, i.e. the name of their ship, on a ribbon around their caps, this was standard pre-war practice. However, it was abandoned for security reasons pretty quickly, although many old sailors hung on to their ribbons as long as possible.

(Of course, the query may have been about something else. But you have another piece of useless knowledge.)

 

[swt_passenger]

I have not seen the programme, but if this is about Navy sailors having ‘H.M.S.Whotsit’, i.e. the name of their ship, on a ribbon around their caps, this was standard pre-war practice. However, it was abandoned for security reasons pretty quickly, although many old sailors hung on to their ribbons as long as possible.

(Of course, the query may have been about something else. But you have another piece of useless knowledge.)

Yes, that’s what I meant. So like you I’m wondering if wearing the peacetime cap ceased immediately in Sep 1939, or somewhat later. All my dad’s WW2 uniform photos are in the dark blue cap with just “HMS” on the cap tally, but he only joined in 1943.

 

[John Luxton]

I have just watched this on C5 player and thought it was very well acted. Though perhaps the disability inclusiveness with the deaf WRVS lady was perhaps a bit overdone for the period and perhaps ticking a few more contemporary PC boxes?

People have commented on Mrs Hall's son's cap band - as war has not yet been declared displaying the ship's name would presumably have been okay. But noting the name HMS REPULSE it is fairly this is not going to have a happy ending in future episodes unless he was one of the lucky survivors. Quite a lot of BR London Midland signage in evidence. However, the strength of the acting carried this episode off. I can be quite critical of transport inaccuracies in dramas but I must admit to really enjoying this and I am prepared to do a "Nelson"!

 

[Gloster]

Yes, that’s what I meant. So like you I’m wondering if wearing the peacetime cap ceased immediately in Sep 1939, or somewhat later. All my dad’s WW2 uniform photos are in the dark blue cap with just “HMS” on the cap tally, but he only joined in 1943.

I think that officially it did: that would almost certainly be one of things in the mobilisation instructions, but these were probably lengthy and the Navy was concentrating on more important matters. It is likely that such a matter would take a while to be put into effect. It depends when the episode is set.

 

[John Luxton]

Yes, that’s what I meant. So like you I’m wondering if wearing the peacetime cap ceased immediately in Sep 1939, or somewhat later. All my dad’s WW2 uniform photos are in the dark blue cap with just “HMS” on the cap tally, but he only joined in 1943.

Though no dates are mentioned I presume from the series war has not yet been declared and therefore cap ribbons would have still been worn. In the Great War it appears that ship names were removed from cap ribbons in December 1914 for security reasons. I have a photo of my grandfather, Harold William Luxton, wearing a ribbon the letters HMTBD - His Majesty's Torpedo Boat Destroyer taken around 1917.

 

[Ploughman]

The first episode in this series was dated as 1938.
HMS Repulse I believe was sunk in the far East in 1941.
The episode next week is the last in the current series, but filming is due to start in March for the next series.
We shall see what calendar the scriptwriters are using eventually.

 

[simonw]

I have just watched this on C5 player and thought it was very well acted. Though perhaps the disability inclusiveness with the deaf WRVS lady was perhaps a bit overdone for the period and perhaps ticking a few more contemporary PC boxes?

People have commented on Mrs Hall's son's cap band - as war has not yet been declared displaying the ship's name would presumably have been okay. But noting the name HMS REPULSE it is fairly this is not going to have a happy ending in future episodes unless he was one of the lucky survivors. Quite a lot of BR London Midland signage in evidence. However, the strength of the acting carried this episode off. I can be quite critical of transport inaccuracies in dramas but I must admit to really enjoying this and I am prepared to do a "Nelson"!

The deaf woman wasn't there for PC reasons but to have a reason for there to be a lip reader in the scene to tell the house keeper what her son had said as the train left.

 

[John Luxton]

The first episode in this series was dated as 1938.
HMS Repulse I believe was sunk in the far East in 1941.
The episode next week is the last in the current series, but filming is due to start in March for the next series.
We shall see what calendar the scriptwriters are using eventually.

I think there will also be a Christmas special again from what I have read.

 

[midland1]

Looking at the station scenes there looked to be far to to many service men around for pre war 1939.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Looking at the station scenes there looked to be far to to many service men around for pre war 1939.

The episode in question was supposedly set in Spring/Summer 1939, I believe.

 

[Gloster]

Well, there might be a few reservists heading off to summer camps or if Darrowby, if they have once again called the town that, was a garrison town, there might be plenty of troops. More likely it has been done for ‘atmosphere’.

 

[John Luxton]

Looking at the station scenes there looked to be far to to many service men around for pre war 1939.

If it was set in summer 1939 mobilisation was already underway.

"Conscription was introduced on 27 April 1939 for the first time in British peacetime history. The Military Training Act required all males to serve in the Armed Forces for six months on reaching their twentieth birthday. On completion of six months service, the conscripts were required to serve in the Territorial Army or Special Reserve. This measure had only just been instituted by the outbreak of war, with only one intake of 35,000 men called up on 15 July."

See: https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/documents-united-kingdom-1939-1940/

for more details

 

[30907]

And BR Standard coaching stock in use (Non-corridor, and Mark 1 coaches ), for a story set in circa 1939.

Which had already been used, with suitable LMS stickers, in the previous series. The differences between BR and LMS non-corridors aren't obvious to your average viewer (and indeed to many non-specialist enthusiasts). I missed the Mk1 corridor stock though, unless you mean the CL?

 

[Trestrol]

I think there are a lot of inaccuracies in this. They were TB testing last night, would they really have measured the cows lump in millimetres? There was also a mention of the space time continuam, really too much watching Star Trek or Doctor Who. With war declared one hopes that James and Tristan don't turn up in army uniforms. As I understand it reserved occupations who volunteered were put in the RAF. I think it was deemed safer.

 

[Gloster]

I think the reality was that ‘Siegfried’ volunteered for the RAF early on and got ‘James’ in to run the practice while he was away, but was later discharged as he wasn’t suitable for pilot training and was of more use to the war effort as a vet. James later joined the RAF, but was discharged on medical grounds after a year. ‘Tristran’, jammy as ever, joined the Royal Army Veterinary Corps after he qualified.

I think that you volunteered for whichever of the three services you wanted to be in: volunteering gave you a better chance of getting in the Navy or RAF, whereas the great majority of conscripts ended up in the Army. You might only get in as a volunteer if you did so for certain parts of the service: Norman Hanson’s Carrier Pilot (one of the best memoirs of the war) tells how he was told that, as he was in a reserved occupation, he could join up if he volunteered for the Navy, but he had to choose either the Marines or the Fleet Air Arm.

 

[Spamcan81]

I think the reality was that ‘Siegfried’ volunteered for the RAF early on and got ‘James’ in to run the practice while he was away, but was later discharged as he wasn’t suitable for pilot training and was of more use to the war effort as a vet. James later joined the RAF, but was discharged on medical grounds after a year. ‘Tristran’, jammy as ever, joined the Royal Army Veterinary Corps after he qualified.

I think that you volunteered for whichever of the three services you wanted to be in: volunteering gave you a better chance of getting in the Navy or RAF, whereas the great majority of conscripts ended up in the Army. You might only get in as a volunteer if you did so for certain parts of the service: Norman Hanson’s Carrier Pilot (one of the best memoirs of the war) tells how he was told that, as he was in a reserved occupation, he could join up if he volunteered for the Navy, but he had to choose either the Marines or the Fleet Air Arm.

IIRC you couldn’t be conscripted into the RAF but you could volunteer of course. Jim White, the real life James Herriot, volunteered for the RAF but following a medical procedure he was discharged. He wasn’t in that long.

 

[Taunton]

Internally in the services there was volunteering as well. In the RAF it was voluntary to be aircrew. The vast majority of those joining did, but the RAF always had far more ground based than in the air.

 

[simonw]

I think there are a lot of inaccuracies in this. They were TB testing last night, would they really have measured the cows lump in millimetres? There was also a mention of the space time continuam, really too much watching Star Trek or Doctor Who. With war declared one hopes that James and Tristan don't turn up in army uniforms. As I understand it reserved occupations who volunteered were put in the RAF. I think it was deemed safer.

Attention to historic detail doesn't appear to be a high priority by the writers throughout the whole programme.

 

[Gloster]

Attention to historic detail doesn't appear to be a high priority by the writers throughout the whole programme.

I think it is more the accountants (on cost grounds), directors (on aesthetic grounds) and producers (on practical grounds). (*) The writers can get things wrong, but once they have delivered the script, they are ignored: they are the least important people in the team. They are only accepted because nobody else wants the tedious slog of writing and rewriting and rerewriting the script: the studio cat’s opinion is more likely to be sought than theirs.

* - Also the baristas (on coffee grounds).

 

[simonw]

I think it is more the accountants (on cost grounds), directors (on aesthetic grounds) and producers (on practical grounds). (*) The writers can get things wrong, but once they have delivered the script, they are ignored: they are the least important people in the team. They are only accepted because nobody else wants the tedious slog of writing and rewriting and rerewriting the script: the studio cat’s opinion is more likely to be sought than theirs.

* - Also the baristas (on coffee grounds).

Except there are huge historic errors in the script and its depiction of life in the 1930s.


It's just evening entertainment.

 

[32475]

It’s one of those dramas which you just know are full of historical and period feature errors that you learn to take with a pinch of salt through gritted teeth.
TV production props budgets often don’t allow for much more than the contents of a dressing up box or a charity shop but having said that there’s no excuse for script references to a ‘train station’ which wasn’t heard of even 40 years ago let alone in the late 1930s.