All Sleeping Car trains in BR days

[Springs Branch]

Following the recent news about new operators for Caledonian Sleepers, I had a quick look at the Sleeper services in my old LMR Passenger timetable for 1971.

Some things that surprised me about those BR days were:-

1) How many different destinations had regular overnight trains with sleeping cars (including some cross country like Bristol-Newcastle and Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh).

2) Throughout the year, there were 4 sleeper trains a night between Euston and Glasgow (plus a 5th seating-only overnight train in summer).

3) Two of the 4 sleeper trains were advertised for Sleeping Car Passengers Only (i.e. no seating accommodation).
These trains were named The Night Limited (no advertised stops between Euston and Glasgow ) and The Night Caledonian (stopped at Carlisle, Dumfries and Kilmarnock).

My question is, were there any other routes around this time with trains made up of Sleeping Cars only? (e.g. KX-Edinburgh or Paddington-West Country).
I only have the LMR timetables, so cannot see what they did on the other Regions.

 

[Dave1954]

The ones I remember leaving nightly from Euston with MK1 Sleeping cars which you have not mentioned was ,
Euston-Perth , Euston-Barrow , Euston-Holyhead and not forgetting the
00.50 Euston-Liverpool/Manchester. Regards Dave1954.

 

[Welshman]

In 1962, the Eastern Region had some interesting shunting of sleeping-stock.

The Night Scotsman [11.35pm Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley and 11.05pm back] conveyed first class sleeping cars only on the down journey, but first and second sleepers on the up. Neither conveyed ordinary carriages, and both were shown in the timetable as non-stop, although obviously a stop would have been made somewhere for engine/crew change.

The Aberdonian [7.30pm Kings Cross to Aberdeen and 8.20pm return] conveyed sleepers and through carriages to Fort William on the down journey but sleeping cars only from Aberdeen on the up.

The Tynesider [12.55am Kings Cross to Newcastle and 10.45pm return], was sleepers only in both directions Monday-Friday & Sunday nights, but on Saturdays was formed of "normal" stock.

Incidentally, the supplement for a sleeping berth was then 30/- first class and 20/- second class between any two stations in England, and 40/- first and 22/6d for Anglo-Scottish journeys.

There were also two car-sleepers:-

Newcastle & Sheffield to Exeter, out at 9.35pm Saturdays only and return at 9am Sundays only; and

The Car-Sleeper Limited [9.20pm London Holloway to Perth, and 8.10pm return, conveying cars and second class sleepers only].

Interesting days!

 

[Leylandlad]

There was also a Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness sleeper, combining/splitting at Perth.

I travelled on it ex Edinburgh in August 1983...what a day that was Penzance-Paddington (Cornish Riviera), Kings Cross-Edinburgh (Talisman) then the sleeper. 1st class 7 day rover.

I think this Scottish Region sleeper was the last Mark 1 service left (anyone know?) When did it finish? Cant see it being much later than 1985 as the Mark 1 sleepers really were life expired.

 

[30907]

My question is, were there any other routes around this time with trains made up of Sleeping Cars only? (e.g. KX-Edinburgh or Paddington-West Country).

The Penzance sleeper was another until it was combined with the overnight Plymouth via Bristol train (which conveyed an Exeter car) - I think this was with the switch to Mk 3's?

The Night Ferry was, for the ferry part of its journey (and from Victoria at the very end of its career)

 

[gordonthemoron]

Ediburgh-Inverness sleeper was operated by MkIII sleeper stock when I used it in 1988

 

[Taunton]

There was also a Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness sleeper, combining/splitting at Perth.

For much of the 1960s-70s the Scottish Region had just the same five sleeping cars allocated for this internal service. They were composite cars, just one ran Edinburgh-Inverness, and one Glasgow-Inverness, marshalled together at Perth, which with overnight service in both directions meant there was just one spare car. If that didn't work out they would borrow one of the London service cars. The Mk 1 composites were half first class (single berth) and half second class (a second upper berth, otherwise the same) but a woman staff member who used the service from Edinburgh up to meetings in Inverness told me that if she booked herself second class there was never a second single woman to share it, so that was the cost efficient thing to do.

Like the majority of other sleeper services, there were also standard seating vehicles (invariably side-corridor ones, a makeshift bed if you could get just two in a compartment) and multiple vans. Even the few "all sleeper" trains could have a number of vans included.

The serious Taunton sleeping car fire in 1978 was attributed in no small part to someone at HQ being over-economical with the vans on the service, on the basis of low revenue, and withdrawing them, whereupon there was nowhere for the spare bedding to be returned to the laundry at Paddington so it was stacked in big piles in the end vestibule of the sleepers, which was the seat of the fire. A van was reinstated the night after the fire.

 

[Springs Branch]

The ones I remember leaving nightly from Euston with MK1 Sleeping cars which you have not mentioned was ,
Euston-Perth , Euston-Barrow , Euston-Holyhead and not forgetting the
00.50 Euston-Liverpool/Manchester. Regards Dave1954.

Here's the procession of long distance overnight trains departing Euston Monday to Friday in the 1971-72 timetable.
All of these had both Sleeper & seating accommodation, unless noted otherwise.

1940 FO Inverness (Friday relief train running all year, not just summer)
2020 Inverness The Royal Highlander
2040 Stranraer
2050 Holyhead The Irish Mail
2100 Glasgow (via Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Carlisle and Dumfries)
2120 Holyhead (seated only)
2200 Glasgow (seated only - runs June to September only)
2215 Glasgow
2230 Perth
2300 Glasgow (Sleeper passengers only) The Night Limited
2330 Glasgow via Dumfries (Sleeper passengers only) The Night Caledonian
2345 Barrow
0015 Crewe via Birmingham (seated only)
0050 Liverpool
0100 Manchester via Stoke (Liverpool & Manchester Sleepers were separate trains at this time)

As Welshman said, interesting days.
I spent hours by the lineside with my notebook back in this period & was familar enough with the daytime trains, but had no idea back then of the variety of traffic passing at night (not that my parents would let a 12-year-old out to see any of them)

 

[muddythefish]

Here's the procession of long distance overnight trains departing Euston Monday to Friday in the 1971-72 timetable.
All of these had both Sleeper & seating accommodation, unless noted otherwise.

1940 FO Inverness (Friday relief train running all year, not just summer)
2020 Inverness The Royal Highlander
2040 Stranraer
2050 Holyhead The Irish Mail
2100 Glasgow (via Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Carlisle and Dumfries)
2120 Holyhead (seated only)
2200 Glasgow (seated only - runs June to September only)
2215 Glasgow
2230 Perth
2300 Glasgow (Sleeper passengers only) The Night Limited
2330 Glasgow via Dumfries (Sleeper passengers only) The Night Caledonian
2345 Barrow
0015 Crewe via Birmingham (seated only)
0050 Liverpool
0100 Manchester via Stoke (Liverpool & Manchester Sleepers were separate trains at this time)

A)

Fantastic reminder of the volume of traffic on the railways in those days and what has been lost in the intervening years. The King's Cross - Leeds/Scotland route was similarly busy. And in amongst that lot was a whole variety of parcels and freight traffic.

Sigh ! :cry:

 

[matchmaker]

For much of the 1960s-70s the Scottish Region had just the same five sleeping cars allocated for this internal service. They were composite cars, just one ran Edinburgh-Inverness, and one Glasgow-Inverness, marshalled together at Perth, which with overnight service in both directions meant there was just one spare car. If that didn't work out they would borrow one of the London service cars. The Mk 1 composites were half first class (single berth) and half second class (a second upper berth, otherwise the same) but a woman staff member who used the service from Edinburgh up to meetings in Inverness told me that if she booked herself second class there was never a second single woman to share it, so that was the cost efficient thing to do.

Like the majority of other sleeper services, there were also standard seating vehicles (invariably side-corridor ones, a makeshift bed if you could get just two in a compartment) and multiple vans. Even the few "all sleeper" trains could have a number of vans included.

The serious Taunton sleeping car fire in 1978 was attributed in no small part to someone at HQ being over-economical with the vans on the service, on the basis of low revenue, and withdrawing them, whereupon there was nowhere for the spare bedding to be returned to the laundry at Paddington so it was stacked in big piles in the end vestibule of the sleepers, which was the seat of the fire. A van was reinstated the night after the fire.

My recollection of the Glasgow - Inverness sleeper standard coaches was of open stock (at least in 2nd class). I remember seeing ice form on the inside of the window as we crossed Drumochter...

 

[Taunton]

Fantastic reminder of the volume of traffic on the railways in those days and what has been lost in the intervening years.

It probably surprises some today, but the main ECML and WCML routes were, up to the 1960s-70s, busiest at night, not only all these passenger services (which included much parcels, mail and newspapers) but also the overnight fast freights. In some cases intermediate block post signalboxes were active at night but switched out in the day. Even in Taunton on the West of England main line you would never have thought there was much freight if you only looked at the line in the day, but at night the distant roar of 4-wheeled freight wagons at speed spread across the town repeatedly, for those children who weren't asleep yet ...... I think someone once worked out that of the nine big 47xx 2-8-0s on the Western, they were all on shed at 2 pm, but all were out on the line at speed 12 hours later.

 

[Springs Branch]

My recollection of the Glasgow - Inverness sleeper standard coaches was of open stock (at least in 2nd class). I remember seeing ice form on the inside of the window as we crossed Drumochter...

An anecdote at the other end of the temperature scale . . . .

Back in the day, the overnight Euston - Manchester train used to be a favourite on Friday nights for bashers from down south making their positioning move to spend a Saturday around the Manchester area.
The aim (I was told) was to get a Mk.I compartment to yourselves, pull down the blinds, unscrew the light bulbs and get your head down in anticipation of a busy day ahead.

All good, until the train arrived at Piccadilly in the early hours and the loco ETH supply was swapped for a shore-based power line.
For some reason, the "land line" put the train heating into overdrive, resulting in a fairly "dreadful" atmosphere in the compartment when it came time to bail.

Luckily these were days of inefficient stock utilisation and the carriage had all day to air out at Longsight before being required for its next trip south.
Not my personal experience, you understand. I was already in the Manchester area (ref my username).

 

[dannypye9999]

The days when they ran on Saturday nights/Sunday Mornings taking slightly longer one such journey was the Edinburgh to Penzance departing around 23:00 arriving about 13:00

 

[Mike99]

Hi, I can recall back around 1976ish going to Newport South Wales from London to watch the football midweek and the ticket allowing onward travel the same night to Swansea to catch the night train back to Paddington, I'm sure my memory isn't playing tricks and I did this several times.

 

[theblackwatch]

Rail Express March 2012 had a feature on 30 years of Mk.3 sleepers which listed all the sleeper services as of May 1982:

East Coast Main Line
20.00 King’s Cross-Aberdeen Sleeping cars removed from train after June 4
21.00 King’s Cross-Aberdeen
22.15 King’s Cross-Aberdeen ‘The Night Aberdonian’
23.35 King’s Cross-Edinburgh ‘The Night Scotsman’
01.10 King’s Cross-Leeds
01.55 King’s Cross-Edinburgh Portion for Sunderland/Newcastle detached at Darlington
19.25 Aberdeen-King’s Cross Sleeping cars removed from train after June 4
21.00 Aberdeen-King’s Cross
22.00 Aberdeen-King’s Cross ‘The Night Aberdonian’
00.50 Leeds-King’s Cross See note (a)
21.05 Edinburgh-King’s Cross See note (b)
21.45 Newcastle-King’s Cross via S’land See note (b)
23.20 Edinburgh-King’s Cross ‘The Night Scotsman’
West Coast Main Line
20.55 Euston-Inverness
21.00 Euston-Stranraer
21.45 Euston-Holyhead ‘The Irish Mail’
21.55 Euston-Inverness/Fort William ‘The Royal Highlander’. Portions split at Cowlairs
22.40 Euston-Perth Continued to Inverness with seated accommodation only
23.00 Euston-Glasgow Central
23.30 Euston-Glasgow Central ‘The Night Limited’
23.45 Euston-Barrow
00.50 Euston-Manchester/Liverpool Portions split at Stafford
20.45 Barrow-Euston
21.50 Glasgow Central-Euston
22.00 Stranraer-Euston
00.30 Liverpool-Euston See note (c)
00.27 Manchester Piccadilly-Euston See note (c)
01.15 Holyhead-Euston ‘The Irish Mail’
23.10 Glasgow Central-Euston ‘The Night Limited’
22.25 Perth-Euston Through train from Inverness with seated accommodation only
20.30 Inverness-Euston ‘The Royal Highlander’. See note (d)
18.22 Fort William-Euston Through train from Mallaig with seated accommodation only. See note (d)
Cross Country
21.24 Bristol TM-Edinburgh/Glasgow Portions split at Carstairs
23.40 Edinburgh-Bristol TM See note (e)
23.55 Glasgow-Bristol TM See note (e)
Great Western Main Line
21.35 Penzance-Paddington
22.27 Milford Haven-Paddington
23.59 Padington-Penzance
00.50 Paddington-Milford Haven
Scottish internal
23.50 Inverness-Glasgow QS/Edinburgh Portions split at Stirling
23.05 Edinburgh-Inverness See note (f)
23.30 Glasgow-Inverness See note (f)
Notes
(a) Joined 20.25 ex Edinburgh (non sleeper) at Doncaster
(b) Trains joined at Darlington
(c) Trains joined at Stafford
(d) Trains joined at Cowlairs
(e) Trains joined at Carstairs
(f) Trains joined at Perth

 

[Hornet]

A few on that list I've travelled on. Used to hope for free compartment to lay out in, pull all the blinds down, dim the compartment light, wait for the Guard to do his ticket check, then bulbs out of fittings, plunging the compartment into total darkness and bounce down the WCML, ECML or GWML to my destination, (not forgetting to put the bulbs back in)! Best trips were in the depths of winter with steam heated stock, arriving at Preston in the middle of the night to the sound of a 'clang' as the wheeltapper came down the train, and the sound and sight of steam leaking from the pipes. ETH never seemed to heat up a carriage as quickly or make it as cosy as as steam heating. Trains didn't seem to be busy, except for the late clubbers heading up to Wigan for the Northern Soul clubs. No trouble either!

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Did the Mk3 sleepers eventually work out of King's Cross as well as Euston and Paddington?

 

[30907]

My recollection of the Glasgow - Inverness sleeper standard coaches was of open stock (at least in 2nd class). I remember seeing ice form on the inside of the window as we crossed Drumochter...

compartment stock in the mid 70s when I last used it, as was the case on all night trains I used back then, except one trip Didcot to Penzance.

 

[Johnuk123]

My recollection of the Glasgow - Inverness sleeper standard coaches was of open stock (at least in 2nd class). I remember seeing ice form on the inside of the window as we crossed Drumochter...

Yes I remember a trip like that in the opposite direction just after Xmas when the ice was on the windows within 10 mins of leaving Inverness.

 

[theblackwatch]

Did the Mk3 sleepers eventually work out of King's Cross as well as Euston and Paddington?

Yes they did - the first route they entered service on was out of King's Cross (on 10 January 1982). Sleeper service on the ECML didn't cease until 1988.