Alliance Rail (GNWR) gets Network Rail approval

[driver_m]

I'll throw a theory in (which is my personal opinion). It could just be a handy termination point for a service which is clearly going to make its money at Preston and Warrington. Ideal turn round time for staffing etc. A bit like how a lot of services terminate at man airport because it's not possible to terminate at man picc/ox road where most would get on/off.
(Warrington has a very large and surprisingly affluent catchment area)

No need to slate Blackpool it's a good, tacky, fun place to go. Go to Lytham or St Annes if you want genteel, cream teas and such.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I'll throw a theory in (which is my personal opinion). It could just be a handy termination point for a service which is clearly going to make its money at Preston and Warrington. Ideal turn round time for staffing etc. A bit like how a lot of services terminate at man airport because it's not possible to terminate at man picc/ox road where most would get on/off.
(Warrington has a very large and surprisingly affluent catchment area)

No need to slate Blackpool it's a good, tacky, fun place to go. Go to Lytham or St Annes if you want genteel, cream teas and such.

Not St Annes which is not at all genteel but Lytham is quite pleasant.
There is a long tradition of Glaswegians visiting Blackpool. When I worked there police officers would report "good" battles over Glasgow fairs weekends - the visual evidence being sficking plaster and facial abrasions. The tradition of Glaswegian visitors continues but those not using their car use coaches. After all there are no direct trains.

 

[Sheepy1209]

And please let's not quote populations as an absolute when talking about demand. It's all about economics and context, and Blackpool is a hole. Not every thousand of population will generate equal demand for London travel.

I live in Blackpool. It is not a hole, and while it does have some concentrated deprivation near the centre it's actually got plenty of ordinary people with jobs and stuff.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Well, if they want to add new destinations, there's always - umm - Bolton and Chorley

I'm up for that.
Dashing up to Preston then hanging round a nearly deserted Preston Station late in the evening waiting for a connection is unpleasant, especially in Winter.

 

[Sheepy1209]

I'm up for that.
Dashing up to Preston then hanging round a nearly deserted Preston Station late in the evening waiting for a connection is unpleasant, especially in Winter.

Something those of us heading to Poulton and Blackpool have been moaning about for years.

Oh yes, and I've got family near Nuneaton.....

 

[muddythefish]

Sorry but this is true. I live and grew up here, and have never met anybody who has been to Blackpool, let alone goes with any frequency. Nobody would deign to entertain the idea!

Even northerners and Glaswegians don't bother with the proliferation of budget airlines, and oldies go to more sedate seaside towns. Or Spain.

Not grandiose at all, quite pedestrian. I'd love to see your facts though, seeing as you raise empirical evidence.

I live in London and go to Blackpool at least once a year so that disproves your theory. It's an entertaining place.

The town is full of people from all over the country at peak periods.

Your ignorance is breathtaking.

 

[aelius]

Thanks for info - would there be any need to stop at Oxenholme since most of the punters would be heading to Windermere?

Only to get the staff token for the branch

 

[fyldetrainfan]

If the number of people who suporyed the local newspaper's campaign to reinstate the service is anything to go by, there is sufficient demand for a London service. Although whether all those people will actually use the service is another matter. Also as has been said before, not sure sure six services a day will get filled. Having said that, the extra seats between Blackpool and Preson is definitely a good thing.That is, of course, unless rhe service will be at the expense of existing services.

 

[cle]

I live in London and go to Blackpool at least once a year so that disproves your theory. It's an entertaining place.

The town is full of people from all over the country at peak periods.

Your ignorance is breathtaking.

Goodness me. So is your taste (or budget).

Please enjoy the fresh air on your Alliance service. :roll:

 

[muddythefish]

Talk about feast or famine.

From zero services to six Blackpool - London return trains per day is too many - I cannot see that sort of demand either way. The railway has too many frequent, short trains as it is and a better way forward must be for a maximum of 3 services each way but with longer trains.

It also doesn't make sense for Blackpool to have 6 trains a day to London when the Barrow line doesn't have any.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Goodness me. So is your taste (or budget).

My taste is fine thanks. As for your ignorance.....

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree, I also live in Blackpool & six trains is far too many, three would be sufficient, morning, lunchtime & evening.

How well filled were the Blackpool to Euston services prior to privatisation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately frequent trains are what generate passenger flows.

 

[muddythefish]

I agree, I also live in Blackpool & six trains is far too many, three would be sufficient, morning, lunchtime & evening.

How well filled were the Blackpool to Euston services prior to privatisation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think there were about 4 each way in the 1970s and were quite well patronised. But in those days it was loco and not less than 10 coaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately frequent trains are what generate passenger flows.

And they also clog up the system.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I agree, I also live in Blackpool & six trains is far too many, three would be sufficient, morning, lunchtime & evening.

Alliance want an hourly path out of Euston, covering different routes north of Crewe.
The timetable can be tweaked once they have the rights, within the expanding electric map.
Blackpool is easy meat, because it is not a WC franchise destination.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is platforming at Euston going to prevent these paths being run by 9 or 11-coach Pendolinos in future? Likewise, can Euston take 2x6 coach Pendolinos? Combining two mini-Pendolino paths into one could help ensure as much of the WCML can be used as is possible while serving as many places as possible.

 

[northwichcat]

Is platforming at Euston going to prevent these paths being run by 9 or 11-coach Pendolinos in future? Likewise, can Euston take 2x6 coach Pendolinos? Combining two mini-Pendolino paths into one could help ensure as much of the WCML can be used as is possible while serving as many places as possible.

The Alliance plan seems to be for an hourly London-Warrington service with a 2 hourly extension to Leeds via Huddersfield and a 2 hourly extension to Blackpool.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is platforming at Euston going to prevent these paths being run by 9 or 11-coach Pendolinos in future? Likewise, can Euston take 2x6 coach Pendolinos? Combining two mini-Pendolino paths into one could help ensure as much of the WCML can be used as is possible while serving as many places as possible.

Euston is OK, not sure about the recently lengthened platforms elsewhere.
Virgin would also have the need to host 2x6-car Pendolinos if their Voyager replacement plans ever go ahead.

 

[northwichcat]

Virgin would also have the need to host 2x6-car Pendolinos if their Voyager replacement plans ever go ahead.

Has there ever been plans to use 6 car Pendolinos in double formation on North Wales to London services? First proposed keeping Voyagers on it, while Virgin proposed using short Pendolinos (I don't know how many carriages) on current Voyager services but that was before they introduced Euston-Birmingham-Scotland through services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has there ever been plans to use 6 car Pendolinos in double formation on North Wales to London services? First proposed keeping Voyagers on it, while Virgin proposed using short Pendolinos (I don't know how many carriages) on current Voyager services but that was before they introduced Euston-Birmingham-Scotland through services.

Well 6-car trains won't work for the peak services on the WCML.
There are something like 4-5 double-unit workings each way at the moment (eg the early Holyhead/Lancaster which doubles up at Crewe, and the 1710/1810 Down Holyhead).
Most of the remaining Euston-Birmingham-Scotland Voyagers are double units too.

 

[johnnychips]

The Alliance plan seems to be for an hourly London-Warrington service with a 2 hourly extension to Leeds via Huddersfield and a 2 hourly extension to Blackpool.

I thought even post-electrification the Stalybridge-Huddersfield section was struggling for capacity with people complaining that the stoppers may have to miss alternate stations to accommodate the fast trains?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought even post-electrification the Stalybridge-Huddersfield section was struggling for capacity with people complaining that the stoppers may have to miss alternate stations to accommodate the fast trains?

You are by no means not the only one that this matter has occurred to.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought even post-electrification the Stalybridge-Huddersfield section was struggling for capacity with people complaining that the stoppers may have to miss alternate stations to accommodate the fast trains?

The DfT Illustrative example for December 2016 was:
Half-hourly Piccadilly-Selby semi-fast with hourly extension to Hull
Half-hourly Airport-Victoria-York service
Half-hourly Liverpool-Victoria-Newcastle service

With the semi-fasts providing the local services between Stalybridge and Huddersfield each calling at 2 of the 4 stations.

Then post-electrification (December 2018) Network Rail say there will be a path available for a Piccadilly-Huddersfield stopper but not a Victoria-Huddersfield stopper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well 6-car trains won't work for the peak services on the WCML.
There are something like 4-5 double-unit workings each way at the moment (eg the early Holyhead/Lancaster which doubles up at Crewe, and the 1710/1810 Down Holyhead).
Most of the remaining Euston-Birmingham-Scotland Voyagers are double units too.

What I was trying to get it is are we sure Virgin's proposed mini-Pendolino order would have consisted of all 6 car units or would it been a mix of sizes meaning the double formations would have been 2 x 5 car unit or a 5 car unit + a 6 car unit.

 

[Viscount702]

The DfT Illustrative example for December 2016 was:
Half-hourly Piccadilly-Selby semi-fast with hourly extension to Hull
Half-hourly Airport-Victoria-York service
Half-hourly Liverpool-Victoria-Newcastle service

With the semi-fasts providing the local services between Stalybridge and Huddersfield each calling at 2 of the 4 stations.

Then post-electrification (December 2018) Network Rail say there will be a path available for a Piccadilly-Huddersfield stopper but not a Victoria-Huddersfield stopper.

Does anyone know why the stopper couldn't go to Victoria after 2018.

I cannot understand why there isn't capacity between Victoria and Stalybridge where there is between Stalybridge and Huddersfield.

Could it be because of paths for electric trains from the West terminating at Stalybridge rather than Victoria ie the Liverpool ones as they did before the timetable change. How many paths will be used for these trains from the west. I think that come 2018 if not 2016 the intention was to have the Liverpool stopper through Victoria half hourly but remain unclear as to other services from the west.

Also how will the proposed new Northern and TPE TOCs affect this if some or all of the proposals for route changes take effect.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What I was trying to get it is are we sure Virgin's proposed mini-Pendolino order would have consisted of all 6 car units or would it been a mix of sizes meaning the double formations would have been 2 x 5 car unit or a 5 car unit + a 6 car unit.

VT and First's plans were never properly announced, of course.
I think only a 6-car Pendolino was mentioned, in the context of the Shrewsbury/Chester circle.
There might be problems in shrinking a Pendolino to 5 cars.
The design is for two independent halves with redundancy (two pantographs for instance).

 

[northwichcat]

VT and First's plans were never properly announced, of course.
I think only a 6-car Pendolino was mentioned, in the context of the Shrewsbury/Chester circle.
There might be problems in shrinking a Pendolino to 5 cars.
The design is for two independent halves with redundancy (two pantographs for instance).

There was the press release when First Group won the franchise:

FIRSTGROUP WELCOMES AWARD OF INTERCITY WEST COAST RAIL FRANCHISE

FirstGroup, the leading transport provider in the UK and North America, is delighted to have been awarded the contract by the Department for Transport ("DfT") to operate the new InterCity West Coast rail franchise until 2026.

The new franchise will offer substantial improvements in the quality and frequency of services which will attract far greater numbers of passengers, enabling InterCity West Coast to achieve a modal share comparable to other intercity franchises in the UK. This growth will create greater long term opportunities for employees; generate solid returns for shareholders and justify the substantial Government investment of £9 billion that this railway has received by providing better value for taxpayers.

InterCity West Coast is unique because it has a considerable amount of unused capacity that will expand further with the addition of 106 new Pendolino coaches by the start of our new franchise. This capacity exists on the key growth corridor for the UK economy, linking a number of the UK's largest andgrowing major urban areas including London, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. We will add to that capacity through the introduction of 11 new 125mph six-car electric multiple units to operate on Birmingham-Glasgow services, which will free up the Voyager trains to deliver direct services and improve connectivity to even more destinations.

The new franchise will commence on 9 December 2012 and run for 13 years and 4 months. The route, which currently has annual revenues of around £900m, is expected to generate an operating margin of approximately 5% over the life of the franchise, and will return a premium to the Government of £5.5 billion at net present value over the franchise term. Over the past ten years revenues on the franchise have increased at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 10.2%, despite limited incentive to increase passenger revenues as a result of revenue share/support arrangements during the last five years. For the new franchise a CAGR of 10.4% is expected, which is supported by passenger and revenue focused operating investment and backed by substantial capacity increases. Improvements to drive additional passenger growth will be supported by operating investment of £350m in the first five years of the new franchise.

Commenting, Tim O'Toole, Chief Executive said:

"We are delighted to be selected by Government to operate this unique railway which connects communities across the country and plays a vital role in the UK's economic growth. Our winning bid is a deliverable proposition that is compelling for all who want to see a greater use of our rail networks. We will be making significant improvements including reduced journey times and introducing new direct services. We will improve marketing and deliver a smart ticketing system, refreshed and improved train interiors, station upgrades and even better catering. In support of our commitment to generate increased passenger growth we will be reducing Standard Anytime fares by 15% on average.

"With a strong focus on service quality we will continue to invest in front line staff and look forward to welcoming new employees to the Group, providing them with long term opportunities from an enhanced and reinvigorated railway. Our bid also delivers value for taxpayers by returning premiums to the Government underpinned by sustainable growth in passenger numbers and revenues from the utilisation of significant available capacity. The new franchise will provide an economic return for our shareholders and is value enhancing from day one.

"As the UK's largest rail operator with a highly experienced management team, we have established a vast wealth of knowledge with unrivalled expertise in operating every type of rail franchise. We have a proven track record of generating growth from investment in customer service enhancements and innovation, together with a strong focus on operational delivery and financial discipline.

"The award of Intercity West Coast marks a key milestone in renewing and developing our long-term UK Rail portfolio. We look forward to bringing an exciting mix of innovation, and customer and service improvements to InterCity West Coast and creating a better railway for all."

Key highlights of the new franchise include the following benefits for customers:

Timetable and trains

* Transforming the on-board environment with a major refurbishment of Pendolino and Voyager interiors, with new seats throughout and improved luggage space

* Introducing 11 new 125mph six-car electric trains for Birmingham - Scotland services which will create 12,000 additional seats per day. This is on top of the 28,000 new seats that will be provided by the additional 106 Pendolino carriages that are coming into service in time for the start of the new franchise. This means there will be 40,000 extra seats by 2016, compared with 2011

* Improved journey time of 15 minutes for trains between London and Glasgow

* Introducing new direct services from London to Blackpool, Telford, Shrewsbury and Bolton providing a new direct link to the capital for more than 500,000 people

* Doubling frequency of London to Preston services and adding capacity to Chester and North Wales

* Improving connectivity with more stops at Nuneaton and Milton Keynes

* Reliability and punctuality improvements to increase Public Performance Measure to over 90% (from current level of 85.9%) through targeted investment and a new alliance with Network Rail

Fares and ticketing

* Reducing Standard Anytime fares by 15% on average

* Installation of automatic ticket gates at 21 stations, including the major terminals of London Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime Street and Glasgow Central

* Investment in greater yield management capability to help grow demand with increased marketing and introducing a new customer loyalty programme

Enhanced customer offering and innovation

* Smart ticketing system introduced across the network

* Free upgraded high speed Wi-Fi and enhanced mobile phone coverage following train refurbishment

* Enhanced catering service offered with increased at seat catering for customers

* Improved information systems including new customer mobile apps

* Station investment includes improving accessibility, security and passenger information

* Commitment to high quality service including a greater emphasis on customer facing staff on trains and at stations

Additional information:

New franchise capital requirements and guarantees:

* Minimal cash requirement - £10m ordinary share capital in cash

Contingent capital:

* £190m subordinated revolving loan facility, supported by 3 year bank guarantees, no indexation

* £45m performance bond increasing at RPI per annum, no requirement to be cash backed

* £5m limited liability season ticket bond increasing by RPI. Matching advance cash for season ticket travel

* £15m station repair unsecured guarantee increasing by RPI
]

That mentions new 6 car trains. With Virgin planning mini-Pendolinos to directly replace the Voyagers I'm wondering whether people are merging the two stories to think that the mini-Pendolinos would have been 6 car.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TThat mentions new 6 car trains. With Virgin planning mini-Pendolinos to directly replace the Voyagers I'm wondering whether people are merging the two stories to think that the mini-Pendolinos would have been 6 car.

I think Alstom also informally talked about the 6-car design (essentially the same for either Virgin or First), and it has popped up since in the context of Hull Trains electrification plans.
But this was two years ago, and different designs may be on the table.

 

[stockport1]

winsford has platforms that just about accomodate a 4 car 350. how are alliance rail going to stop anything like a 6 car pendo there????

 

[northwichcat]

winsford has platforms that just about accomodate a 4 car 350. how are alliance rail going to stop anything like a 6 car pendo there????

They aren't. Winsford has been dropped as a calling point.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does anyone know why the stopper couldn't go to Victoria after 2018.

All/most of the 'express' services will run via Victoria once the Ordsall Chord is open- as a result, there'll be more paths available between Stalybridge and Piccadilly via Guide Bridge and more reason to run the stopper to Piccadilly too (as Victoria will already have a regular service with both the fasts and the terminators). The irritating reverse-curves at Guide Bridge will also be less of a pain on a stopper (though whether this stopper would call at the likes of Guide Bridge, Gorton, Ashburys etc., I don't know!).

 

[thealexweb]

Will tickets with Manchester Central to London Terminals on them be valid on these new services?