Allocating of XC 2 and 3 car 170s

[jamesontheroad]

I'm starting to make weekly journeys with XC, which reminds me of when CT first took delivery of the Turbostar fleet.

Then, as now, I can't work out the scheduling and distribution of the 2 and 3 car class 170s. Is there any logic to this? One evening last week on the Birmingham - Stansted route it appeared that 2 cars were restricted to the Birmingham - Leicester shorts and the 3 cars were going to Stansted. Is it that reliable, or is it not possible to ensure the extra capacity goes where it's needed?

Thanks

 

[nuneatonmark]

I have no idea about the actual 'booked diagrams' but in mine and a lot of people I know that use that service experience it is usually the case the 3 coach 170s are on the Stansted/Cambridge services and the 2 coach on the Leicester services. What is also usually true is that they are very crowded and require lengthening.

 

[NSE]

I'm sure there is a logic set out originally, but from my own observations at Cambridge trains can be 2 or 3 cars long, seemingly when ever they want. I guess the problem is the route is so long. I.e if you need three carriages for a particular busy time later in the route, you might leave Stansted or Birmingham looking empty, or vica versa. The route is crying out for capacity like so many others

 

[Minilad]

When a service from Stansted arrives into New St it forms a Leicester and when a Leicester arrives it forms a Stansted so 2 and 3 cars can and will be seen on either. The Cardiff to Nottingham services and Birmingham to Nottingham are the same.
Although there are certain diagrams that will usually be 2 cars or 3 (or even 4) They swap around between destinations at New St

 

[bnsf734]

I'm starting to make weekly journeys with XC, which reminds me of when CT first took delivery of the Turbostar fleet.

Then, as now, I can't work out the scheduling and distribution of the 2 and 3 car class 170s. Is there any logic to this? One evening last week on the Birmingham - Stansted route it appeared that 2 cars were restricted to the Birmingham - Leicester shorts and the 3 cars were going to Stansted. Is it that reliable, or is it not possible to ensure the extra capacity goes where it's needed?

Thanks

The Leicester trains and Stansteds are interworked so that it not a solution I'm afraid. A 170 will arrive at New Street from Stansted then form a Leicester and vice versa.

I believe trains that stop at Manea need to be 2 car sets due to the platform length there.

Even on a day-to-day basis things may vary, as last Thursday I was waiting for a Leicester train at Nuneaton and the Birmingham train came in announced
as "3 carriages" but only had 2!

The diagrams may give us the answer but I have never seen them available anywhere.

 

[Qwerty133]

The Leicester trains and Stansteds are interworked so that it not a solution I'm afraid. A 170 will arrive at New Street from Stansted then form a Leicester and vice versa.

I believe trains that stop at Manea need to be 2 car sets due to the platform length there.

Even on a day-to-day basis things may vary, as last Thursday I was waiting for a Leicester train at Nuneaton and the Birmingham train came in announced
as "3 carriages" but only had 2!

The diagrams may give us the answer but I have never seen them available anywhere.

Plus the Leicester services are often as busy as the stansted ones anyway
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for diagrams I can say the following, if anyone has patience to work it out.
07:33 Narborough-Birmingham 3
07:37 NBR- Leicester 3
15:52 BHM-LEI 3
16:09 BHM-LEI 3
17:18 LEI-SSA 3
17:49 LEI- BHM 3
08:37 Derby- Cardiff 3
08:41 DBY- Nottingham 2

 

[ExRes]

I believe trains that stop at Manea need to be 2 car sets due to the platform length there.

Can't see that this is the case, the driver can keep the doors closed on his driving vehicle at the push of a button

 

[MCR247]

08:37 Derby- Cardiff 3

Is this recent? This service used to be booked as 2x2 car

 

[Minilad]

Can't see that this is the case, the driver can keep the doors closed on his driving vehicle at the push of a button

Erm......what ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is this recent? This service used to be booked as 2x2 car

It's booked a single set now

 

[TheBigD]

Booked SX services for 3 cars on the Leicester/Stansted route...

Ex BHM - 0552, 0622, 0652, 0722, 0752, 0822, 0852, 0922, 0952, 1022, 1122, 1222, 1352, 1452, 1552, 1622, 1652, 1722, 1752, 1822, 1852, 1952.

BHM arrivals - 0715, 0745, 0758, 0820, 0845, 0915, 0938, 1015, 1115, 1215, 1338, 1438, 1538, 1615, 1638, 1715, 1738, 1815 (5car), 1845, 1938, 2015, 2115, 2338.

Times are approximate... Apologies if I've got any wrong...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe trains that stop at Manea need to be 2 car sets due to the platform length there

The XC 170's have door deselect operated by the guard... The 0516 ex Stansted is a 3 car and stops at Manea...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
SX Services booked for 4 cars (2+2) services on the Nottingham line...

0700 NOT-CDF, 1045 CDF-NOT, 1441 NOT-BHM, 1619 BHM-NOT, 1811 NOT-CDF (to BHM)...
0737 NOT-BHM...

 

[ExRes]

Erm......what ?

170s have door select, the driver can keep his driving vehicles doors shut by pressing the deselect button, we used to do it at Long Eaton with an evening St Pancras-Derby 5 car set

 

[Minilad]

170s have door select, the driver can keep his driving vehicles doors shut by pressing the deselect button, we used to do it at Long Eaton with an evening St Pancras-Derby 5 car set

But this is XC. And drivers having nothing to do with the doors on 170s.
Any door deselecting is done by the guard

 

[TheBigD]

The ex MML 170's were modified a couple of years ago... The now have the same door deselect as the /3's & the /5's...

 

[ExRes]

If the door select ability has been reduced so that a 5 car cannot stop on a 4 car platform, for example, then I have to say that it would be totally ridiculous and an enormous backward step, hopefully that isn't the case though and, as I haven't driven one since about 2004, I bow to other peoples knowledge

 

[ValleyLines142]

Is this recent? This service used to be booked as 2x2 car

No that's the 0736 which is a pair of 2 cars.

Although even now I believe this is a 3 car set, as 170108 was on it yesterday and 170397 was on it today. Bit of a coincidence for it to be a different formation twice in a row.

 

[O L Leigh]

If the door select ability has been reduced so that a 5 car cannot stop on a 4 car platform, for example, then I have to say that it would be totally ridiculous and an enormous backward step, hopefully that isn't the case though and, as I haven't driven one since about 2004, I bow to other peoples knowledge

This is not how the door deselect now works. The door deselect button in the driver's cab does not keep the doors on the lead vehicle closed.

You always pull up with the front of the train at the end of the platform, therefore you need to ensure that the doors on the vehicles at the rear of the train that are not platformed are not released. This seems to be the case with all stock as you will see car stop boards and then SDO reminder boards below for shorter platforms such as Long Eaton.

The door deselect will be operated by the guard on the guard's door control panel. This will only activate the doors on those vehicles between the live guard's panel and the live cab. All others behind that live guard's panel will not be released. If you were to operate the door deselect in the lead cab only the doors on the lead vehicle would release and all others would stay closed.

However, while the door controls in the lead cab of the ex-CT units activate automatically below 3mph, those on the ex-MML units do not. To activate these controls, including the door deselect, you would need to have a door key in the lead cab as well as the guard's door panel, and as far as I'm aware no train likes to have two keys in.

O L Leigh

 

[ExRes]

This is not how the door deselect now works. The door deselect button in the driver's cab does not keep the doors on the lead vehicle closed.

You always pull up with the front of the train at the end of the platform, therefore you need to ensure that the doors on the vehicles at the rear of the train that are not platformed are not released. This seems to be the case with all stock as you will see car stop boards and then SDO reminder boards below for shorter platforms such as Long Eaton.

The door deselect will be operated by the guard on the guard's door control panel. This will only activate the doors on those vehicles between the live guard's panel and the live cab. All others behind that live guard's panel will not be released. If you were to operate the door deselect in the lead cab only the doors on the lead vehicle would release and all others would stay closed.

However, while the door controls in the lead cab of the ex-CT units activate automatically below 3mph, those on the ex-MML units do not. To activate these controls, including the door deselect, you would need to have a door key in the lead cab as well as the guard's door panel, and as far as I'm aware no train likes to have two keys in.

O L Leigh

Thanks for that explanation, it seems to be a completely logical and safe way to operate selective operation

 

[XCTurbostar]

I'm sure that there is some logic to the way which the 2 & 3 Coach sets interlink.

A good example of this is at 15:50 on a weekday. At Birmingham New Street, an ex-stansted will arrive onto Platform 10a and go back as the 15:52 to Leicester. This is always a 3 Coach set.

6 Minutes later, an ex-Nottingham Two 2 Coach Class 170s will arrive coupled in the middle of Platform 12 to form the 16:19 back to Nottingham.

Less than two minutes behind it will be a 2 Coach empty stock set from Tyseley which will terminate on Platform 12a and will form the 16:09 to Leicester. This is also always a 2 Coach set.

If there is no 2 coach set available at Tyseley. It is not unusual for the 16:19 to split to become the 16:09.

When the 15:52 arrives at Leicester on Platform 1, the 16:09 will be behind it and will couple to it to become a 5 coach train for Leicester. If the 16:09 was a 3 coach set, the platform at Water Orton would not be big enough for 6 Coach train. I'm sure there are other occasions but this is just one.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[O L Leigh]

There is generally a pattern to the allocation of 2 and 3 car units. If you do the same job over and over you will generally find that the same length of unit is used on the same trip day after day. Of course things can get jumbled up if there is disruption or a train failure, but if things run to plan then the pattern is predictable.

The problem with utilisation and planning to have capacity where it's needed is that the length of the routes and the time taken to do a return trip. This means that almost every train on every trip will have to cope with a peak loading somewhere along the route. Therefore you can't always ensure that there are 3 car units where they are needed most. For example, the 1801 from Cambridge will always be a 2 car unit even though the loadings between Cambridge and Ely can best be described as "snug". The best thing XC could have hoped for is that the displaced Cl170s from TPE had gone to them rather than Chiltern to permit more services to be doubled-up.

O L Leigh

 

[MCR247]

No that's the 0736 which is a pair of 2 cars.



Although even now I believe this is a 3 car set, as 170108 was on it yesterday and 170397 was on it today. Bit of a coincidence for it to be a different formation twice in a row.

It definitely used to be at one point as I'd see it depart Nottingham every day. Maybe it changed in May or even last December

 

[TheBigD]

Or anyone who's interested 170520 is doing a couple of trips BHM-MAN today vice voyager
voyager...

 

[ValleyLines142]

It definitely used to be at one point as I'd see it depart Nottingham every day. Maybe it changed in May or even last December

It must have been last December as I regularly see the 170s at Cardiff and from observations the 0812 Nottingham to Cardiff has been a 3-car unit.

 

[Martin_1981]

Or anyone who's interested 170520 is doing a couple of trips BHM-MAN today vice voyager
voyager...

Sounds like there are a couple of Voyagers out of action today then. Apparently 220008 failed at Edinburgh this morning, which meant the 0632 Dundee-Plymouth was started at Edinburgh with a HST (43303 and 43357). Not everyday a HST replaces a Voyager, usually its the other way round!

 

[Qwerty133]

I'm sure that there is some logic to the way which the 2 & 3 Coach sets interlink.

A good example of this is at 15:50 on a weekday. At Birmingham New Street, an ex-stansted will arrive onto Platform 10a and go back as the 15:52 to Leicester. This is always a 3 Coach set.

6 Minutes later, an ex-Nottingham Two 2 Coach Class 170s will arrive coupled in the middle of Platform 12 to form the 16:19 back to Nottingham.

Less than two minutes behind it will be a 2 Coach empty stock set from Tyseley which will terminate on Platform 12a and will form the 16:09 to Leicester. This is also always a 2 Coach set.

If there is no 2 coach set available at Tyseley. It is not unusual for the 16:19 to split to become the 16:09.

When the 15:52 arrives at Leicester on Platform 1, the 16:09 will be behind it and will couple to it to become a 5 coach train for Leicester. If the 16:09 was a 3 coach set, the platform at Water Orton would not be big enough for 6 Coach train. I'm sure there are other occasions but this is just one.

Thanks,
Ross

Sorry but most of the above is total rubish.
I can't say if the 16:19 ever gets split as my observations are at the Leicester end, but the 16:09 definately can be a 3 coach 170, unfortunately having not used it since July I'm unable to give recent dates.
The 17:18 from Leicester doesn't even call at Water Orton, and the platforms at South Wigston, Narborough and Hinckley are only 4 coaches long, and I think coleshil is 5 coaches. But as XC 170s all have SDO just the doors on the front x coaches are opened, I'll say x as when I used to use the service it'd vary between 2 and 4.
Might as well say I've also definately seen the 15:52 as a 2 coach during the current timetable, so that isn't always 3 coaches.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Thanks all for the info to my original post.