Alternative to the Class 769?

[Mitchell Hurd]

Hi all, I hope you're ok. Thought I'd start a thread on what we could have instead of the 769's.

On Twitter, somebody said something about GWR ordering 32 new trains.

My guess is, if true, 15 will be for the '769' routes plus a few for the Didcot - Oxford - Banbury's as well as one of the branch lines.

Alternatively, my suggestion would be some 158's from TfW (someone suggested it to on here) to make 5-car formations on Portsmouth routes and then send Turbos to increase capacity in the Thames Valley and Gatwick routes.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I’m not sure 158s Cardiff - Portsmouth is all that wise. As comfortable as they are, the door positioning will cause overcrowding and dwell time problems.

 

[Darandio]

I’m not sure 158s Cardiff - Portsmouth is all that wise. As comfortable as they are, the door positioning will cause overcrowding and dwell time problems.

Did it cause problems in the 20+ years they were previously used on the route?

 

[Lewlew]

Did it cause problems in the 20+ years they were previously used on the route?

Yep! But also because they were only 2 or 3 cars.

 

[DanNCL]

On Twitter, somebody said something about GWR ordering 32 new trains.

The 32 'new' trains was a tender GWR issued for EMUs, not specifically new EMUs, most likely intended to get them a cheaper lease on the 387s, and indeed it seems to have worked as the 387s now have a new longer term lease.

 

[JonathanH]

Thought I'd start a thread on what we could have instead of the 769's.

On Twitter, somebody said something about GWR ordering 32 new trains.

First answer is nothing.

Second answer is that something will replace the 150 / 158 / 165 / 166 fleet after 2028. Thoughts over the next few years will turn to what that is to be but it now seems unlikely there will be any fleet increase before that.

 

[DanNCL]

Second answer is that something will replace the 150 / 158 / 165 / 166 fleet after 2028.

There's not a hope in hells chance of the 150s making it to 2030 they're falling to bits already. Something will have to be done before then, no matter how desperate the Treasury are to save every penny they can.

 

[RobShipway]

There's not a hope in hells chance of the 150s making it to 2030 they're falling to bits already. Something will have to be done before then, no matter how desperate the Treasury are to save every penny they can.

Well, if Chiltern replace their 28 two car 165/0 units, then these could go to GWR to help replace both the class 150 units and HST castle units indirectly.

 

[hooverboy]

There's not a hope in hells chance of the 150s making it to 2030 they're falling to bits already. Something will have to be done before then, no matter how desperate the Treasury are to save every penny they can.

There is definitely still a need for 20m long type dmu or dmu hybrids.That has absolutely got to be looked at quite soon,given how long it is taking from tendering to actually being on the rails.3 years is optimistic.Given software issues and disputes over roles and training it is closer to 5 years.

I suppose the easiest option would be to take an existing bodyshell type(lets say a 350 or 387) and modify that.The manufacturers already have drawings for these and there may be some jigs still set up.Obviously some lessons need to be learned re exhaust pipe clearances.
The other lesson to be learned is that using two diesel engines it is probably better to have two independent motor coaches( which 350 as a bo-xx,xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-bo) is.

Crashworthiness tests shouldn't be a problem as it's rated at 110mph already,so a 75/90mph dmu is within range.Plus the fact such hehicles have end gangways means it's far easier for multiple and split workings.

 

[The Ham]

On the GWR 769 thread, I did wonder if a battery EMU for the North Downs Line would also be able to be used on other services (say Paddington to Oxford, removing the need for Didcot to Oxford shuttles as the round trip is less than 30 miles).

By running such services at battery trains, it could allow the release of 16x units to then allow the scrapping of 15x units.

I also highlighted that whilst current passenger (GWR) km usage is down by about 14% from the peak in 2019, it's only down by about 6.5% from 2011 (when comparing the same quarter), whilst still currently showing an upwards tend. As such is not unreasonable to be considering options for near future trains, potentially even for increases in fleet size if the towards trend continues.

 

[anthony263]

Could they not fit batteries to the 378s or if the owners of the 379s actually reduce the lease costs for those units get some 379s.

I remember reading gwr state if network rail wired Chippenham/Patchway to Bristol TM they could use battery emus on the Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr services

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi all, I hope you're ok. Thought I'd start a thread on what we could have instead of the 769's.

On Twitter, somebody said something about GWR ordering 32 new trains.

That was a “market test” to see if they could get a better deal for 30 EMUs. But nothing whatsoever to do with increasing the numbers, although it was misinterpreted by many people, until GWR insiders explained.

 

[geoffk]

Could they not fit batteries to the 378s or if the owners of the 379s actually reduce the lease costs for those units get some 379s.

I remember reading gwr state if network rail wired Chippenham/Patchway to Bristol TM they could use battery emus on the Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr services

There's already a 379 with added batteries (IPEMU) and the conversion was done in 2015! What's happened to it? It ran on the Harwich branch for a while. The rest of the fleet is sitting doing nothing and, if this trial was a success, then surely a few more conversions would be ideal for the ND line. I write as someone who would like to see more Turbos in the south-west to replace the increasingly unreliable 150s.

 

[JonathanH]

There's already a 379 with added batteries (IPEMU) and the conversion was done in 2015! What's happened to it? It ran on the Harwich branch for a while.

It (379013) was converted back to a standard 379.

The rest of the fleet is sitting doing nothing and, if this trial was a success, then surely a few more conversions would be ideal for the ND line.

The North Downs Line needs stability (Turbos), not inertia created by having another fleet converted unproven.

By all means put batteries in one unit at cost to the leasing company but try it out first, prove it, and use the technology in the replacement fleet due in the early 2030s.

I write as someone who would like to see more Turbos in the south-west to replace the increasingly unreliable 150s.

Some 150s need to stay for the Cornish branches. Are 150s genuinely increasingly unreliable?

 

[geoffk]

It (379013) was converted back to a standard 379.

The North Downs Line needs stability, not inertia created by having another fleet converted unproven.

By all means put batteries in one unit at cost to the leasing company but try it out first, prove it, and use the technology in the replacement fleet due in the early 2030s.

I suppose I need to ask why, given that there are several routes where units like this would be ideal (Uckfield?) Was the conversion not a success? I've been reading the RMT's report "The ROSCO Racket" - they have an axe to grind of course, as do many of the contributors here, but the whole question of rolling stock finance is clearly unsatisfactory, and outside the scope of this thread!

 

[pdeaves]

(converting battery unit back to standard)

I suppose I need to ask why

If I understand correctly, the battery conversion was an experiment to see if the concept could be developed. Battery technology at the time meant a huge amount of space was needed for them. It was never intended as a 'final product' as 230s, 769, etc. are. The experiment found that it could be worth investigating further as technology develops/matures.

 

[JonathanH]

Was the conversion not a success?

Apparently not https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-to-great-northern.230859/page-2#post-5636412.

However, battery technology has moved on in the ten years since that trial. A new trial is probably needed but it needs to be one unit - 230001 was to be that unit - before a commitment is made to a full fleet.

Similarly 168329 is a trial hybrid unit, and there will be 777s with batteries as well. Not sure what has happened to 165004 which was to be another test bed for alternative propulsion.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It (379013) was converted back to a standard 379.


The North Downs Line needs stability (Turbos), not inertia created by having another fleet converted unproven.

By all means put batteries in one unit at cost to the leasing company but try it out first, prove it, and use the technology in the replacement fleet due in the early 2030s.


Some 150s need to stay for the Cornish branches. Are 150s genuinely increasingly unreliable?

I can see why it's been suggested - however the 150's can't stay on the Cornish branches forever.