Alternatives to HS2 (East) between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield

[Kettledrum]

There seems a lot of confusion here, but using East Midlands parkway instead of Toton might have some merit. Maybe there will need to be classic compatible trains or connections into Derby and central Nottingham, but this would need to be the case with Toton too.

The pre budget chatter has thrown up a lot of speculation about what might happen in the short term to the Eastern leg of HS2 between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield.

- Will classic compatible trains service central Derby and Nottingham?
- Will existing tracks be used and upgraded to 125mph running?
- Well plans for a Toton station be permanently shelved and replaced with new platforms at East Midlands Parkway?
- Will HS2 trains to Leeds use existing tracks through the Erewash area to get to Sheffield and onto new HS2 track nearer Leeds?

Speculate here please

 

[PTR 444]

So is HS2 getting dedicated platforms at East Midlands Parkway in place of Toton, or will high speed trains join the existing line south of there and use the existing EMD platforms?

Also, will this revised proposal allow direct HS2 trains to run between London and Nottingham/Derby?

 

[edwin_m]

But HS2 is going to East Midlands Parkway and not Toton if you believe the most recent articles. Then a newly electrified MML to Sheffield and NPR on to Leeds

I was comparing with the situation under the full HS2 where London to Derby or Nottingham would require a change at Toton into a feeder service.

There seems a lot of confusion here, but using East Midlands parkway instead of Toton might have some merit. Maybe there will need to be classic compatible trains or connections into Derby and central Nottingham, but this would need to be the case with Toton too.

East Midlands Parkway would allow direct HS2 trains London to Nottingham and for the Sheffield trains to serve Derby, using paths out of London not required by trains to York and beyond, and possibly also Leeds, which would remain on the ECML. However they may not want to offer that if the intention is ultimately to complete the missing part of the eastern leg, as those trains would then have to be taken away and replaced by the ones originally planned.

However changing between HS2 and classic is better at EM Parkway than at Toton in the sense that it has direct trains to Derby and Nottingham as well as various other places, so wouldn't need additional feeder services for which it would be difficult to find capacity in Nottingham and elsewhere.

Another option, floated on here a while ago, would be to run trains to the north east via EM Parkway, through a rebuilt Nottingham station and onto the ECML by a new curve at Newark. This does however present quite a few challenges!

 

[James90012]

It's the York to Newcastle stretch which stands to lose significantly from this reported change. HS2 was to offer, I think, a 30 minute journey time saving, which in of itself wasn't the most transformational part of the scheme but fundamentally this will need the ECML to continue to serve it's mixed markets for the long term. Perhaps if the fast services to Leeds still run via HS2 some capacity could be released for the North East. Maybe time to reopen the 140mph conversation, and the next ECML upgrade which must surely involve spending £bns on the Welwyn Viaduct constraint.

I wonder also if it's a connection with the lobbying (rightly or wrongly) to route HS2 services into Sheffield Midland - once you need to join the MML the argument becomes 'could you join X miles earlier and save £Xbn'.

Not going to be much scope for anything other than 'Classic Compatible' rolling stock at this rate!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not going to be much scope for anything other than 'Classic Compatible' rolling stock at this rate!

The first order is planned to be all classic compatible anyway. It's a long time before double-deck 400m trains would be necessary (possibly never), and there's very little benefit and many downsides of ordering non-classic-compatible single deck stock, for instance preventing diversion as 200m trains onto classic lines in the event of disruption.

 

[Kettledrum]

I wonder also if it's a connection with the lobbying (rightly or wrongly) to route HS2 services into Sheffield Midland - once you need to join the MML the argument becomes 'could you join X miles earlier and save £Xbn'.

Not going to be much scope for anything other than 'Classic Compatible' rolling stock at this rate!

My understanding is the MML between East Midlands parkway and Sheffield has capacity and has 100mph and 125mph sections too, so why not upgrade it and run classic compatible trains on it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The MML from Trent Jn via Derby has some 110mph sections as far as Chesterfield, but also numerous slower sections.
On the direct route via the Erewash Valley there is nothing better than 80mph, though much of it is or was 4-track.

The new Leeds station wouldn't need 6x400m platforms for a Sheffield-Leeds NPR service and a few HS2 "MML" extensions.
It faces the wrong way to suit today's TP routes, unless something like the Calder Valley route into Leeds is chosen for NPR (as for the original M&L line).

 

[37424]

Guessing they might be going to 'upgrade' the old road via Beighton and Barrowhill, to Chesterfield Tapton Jn. No way can everything go through Sheffield Midland.

You could be right on that. My view is HS2 will probably still offer a London to Leeds service with some Leeds services perhaps using the avoider. Seems to me they are probably just about going to build enough of it to offer at least a similar journey time to the current East Coast route and hence still relieving the East Coast of traffic from W. Yorks and Edinburgh, of course the only benefit to the North East might be an improved Birmingham time.

I guessing the 60 miles of missing track is being dumped to pay for a substancially new line between Leeds and Manchester, I guess it still manages to tick a lot boxes in capacity at least if not so much journey time, and presumably they still going to have to spend quite a lot upgrading and electrifying the northern section of the midland line.

 

[JKF]

What timing will this offer London-Leeds if it has to crawl for 60 miles on the MML? Will it be faster enough than ECML to be worth the while?

 

[WestRiding]

You could be right on that. My view is HS2 will probably still offer a London to Leeds service with some Leeds services perhaps using the avoider. Seems to me they are probably just about going to build enough of it to offer at least a similar journey time to the current East Coast route and hence still relieving the East Coast of traffic from W. Yorks and Edinburgh, of course the only benefit to the North East might be an improved Birmingham time.

I guessing the 60 miles of missing track is being dumped to pay for a substancially new line between Leeds and Manchester, I guess it still manages to tick a lot boxes in capacity at least if not so much journey time, and presumably they still going to have to spend quite a lot upgrading and electrifying the northern section of the midland line.

Good luck with them dodging all the freight on the old road, and trains backing in and out of Rotherham Steel Terminal.

 

[37424]

What timing will this offer London-Leeds if it has to crawl for 60 miles on the MML? Will it be faster enough than ECML to be worth the while?

Well if its about relieving capacity then it doesn't really have to be any faster than the East Coast route, but obviously politically if Manchester to London is much quicker than Leeds to London that might not go down well politically, but I guess a proper new NPR might soften the blow. Lets put it this way I don't think they are going to build a new station and new route to Crofton just for Birmingham and possibly local Leeds to Sheffield traffic.

 

[Groundhopper]

HS2 set to run on existing track in shoestring plan for Yorkshire route

Exclusive: Leeds to have new station and line but trains will slow down and move onto old network between South Yorkshire and Midlands

www.independent.co.uk

The Independent has now learned that a new station in Leeds and a new line connecting the city to South Yorkshire are both likely to be given the go-ahead – but, from there, trains heading south will have to run on existing track for much of the way to Birmingham.

It means that journey times from Yorkshire to London will be significantly longer than originally proposed and existing bottlenecks on the network will go unresolved resulting in little extra capacity.

Don’t know whether this warrants its own thread (or indeed has one that I’ve missed) but appears they’ve struck some sort of compromise for the eastern leg.

Would be grateful if anyone more au fait with the project could clarify exactly what the plan looks to be - if it joins the existing line at Clayton then that appears to be between Moorethorpe and Thurnscoe, then not sure where it would branch off the existing line before Birmingham?

 

[WestRiding]

HS2 set to run on existing track in shoestring plan for Yorkshire route

Exclusive: Leeds to have new station and line but trains will slow down and move onto old network between South Yorkshire and Midlands

www.independent.co.uk

Don’t know whether this warrants its own thread (or indeed has one that I’ve missed) but appears they’ve struck some sort of compromise for the eastern leg.

Would be grateful if anyone more au fait with the project could clarify exactly what the plan looks to be - if it joins the existing line at Clayton then that appears to be between Moorethorpe and Thurnscoe, then not sure where it would branch off the existing line before Birmingham?

I'm guessing that trains will then travel through Sheffield Midland on the conventional route, and some will go via Beighton, Barrowhill and Tapton to Chesterfield and carry in their merry way to Birmingham via Derby. There definitely isn't enough room for all these extra trains to travel through Sheffield in it's current state.

 

[hwl]

A few thoughts:

Not really surprises give the mess over South Yorkshire routing (see my previous comments on other threads), hence get on build what you can and sort South Yorkshire later.

The preferred HS2b East alignment crosses the Swinton - Moorthorpe section just North East of Clayton. Several of the original routing option over 10 years ago pass very near here (both Sheffield City centre and avoiding options) hence it keep all South Yorkshire options open.

Clayton is just north of the location of the current proposed northern junction of the main 2b east and Sheffield loops i.e. the construction work north of here wouldn't be a stranded asset given potential South Yorks options.

HS2 added a Leeds Terminus to NE route safeguarding relatively recently (near the Leeds HS2 Rolling stock depot). This potentially relives pressure on the 2 track section east of Leeds if you were to run Leeds HS station - York (- Newcastle- Edinburgh)

Leeds HS - Sheffield this removes some conflicts at the western throat of Leeds at some platforming issues (helps TRU and NPR routing via upgraded transpennine route.

HS2b West/North Yorkshire (to remove a little traffic east of Leeds) + TRU + a little bit of extra wiring (Micklefield - Hambleton Jn) also give a minimum 7 minutes faster journey time Leeds (existing station) to Doncaster (and Kings Cross etc) than via Wakefield and also enable no reversals for Bradford /Harrogate extensions. (assumes no line speed improvements Leeds - Hambleton which is a conservative assumption given proposed TRU line speed upgrades)

 

[snowball]

HS2 set to run on existing track in shoestring plan for Yorkshire route

Exclusive: Leeds to have new station and line but trains will slow down and move onto old network between South Yorkshire and Midlands

www.independent.co.uk

Don’t know whether this warrants its own thread (or indeed has one that I’ve missed) but appears they’ve struck some sort of compromise for the eastern leg.

There's been discussion in this present thread and also in this one:

HS2 Eastern Leg updates

I think the eastern branch to Leeds (or certainly north of the East Midlands) is still considered to be on the cards like Piccadilly P15 & P16 is still on the cards. Not officially cancelled, just sat at the very bottom of the ‘to-do’ pile. NPR via Bradford is probably very close to it. And...

www.railforums.co.uk

However there have been a series of rumours in the press over the last few months about the HS2 eastern leg being dropped or delayed in whole or in part, and about NPR, and these have been discussed in a range of threads including ones about NPR and TRU.

Would be grateful if anyone more au fait with the project could clarify exactly what the plan looks to be - if it joins the existing line at Clayton then that appears to be between Moorethorpe and Thurnscoe, then not sure where it would branch off the existing line before Birmingham?

Well it's all guesswork at present but the main rumour has been that the south end of the eastern leg would be built, from where it divides from the western leg near Curdworth, to join the MML near East Midlands Parkway.

 

[WideRanger]

I was comparing with the situation under the full HS2 where London to Derby or Nottingham would require a change at Toton into a feeder service.

East Midlands Parkway would allow direct HS2 trains London to Nottingham and for the Sheffield trains to serve Derby, using paths out of London not required by trains to York and beyond, and possibly also Leeds, which would remain on the ECML. However they may not want to offer that if the intention is ultimately to complete the missing part of the eastern leg, as those trains would then have to be taken away and replaced by the ones originally planned.

However changing between HS2 and classic is better at EM Parkway than at Toton in the sense that it has direct trains to Derby and Nottingham as well as various other places, so wouldn't need additional feeder services for which it would be difficult to find capacity in Nottingham and elsewhere.

Another option, floated on here a while ago, would be to run trains to the north east via EM Parkway, through a rebuilt Nottingham station and onto the ECML by a new curve at Newark. This does however present quite a few challenges!

But if there was a line from Birmingham, underneath East Midlands Airport to a point just south of Trent Junction, why should we expect them to stop at East Midlands Parkway? Nottingham would be accessible from the end of the High Speed Line, so surely some trains would go straight there. So you would get no Nottingham customers at East Midland Parkway. So who would actually use it - it really is in the middle of nowhere, and difficult to get to from pretty much everywhere. To some extent that could have been said about Toton, but that would have seemed more likely because 1) it would be part of a model where direct trains to Nottingham would not be possible, 2) there is reasonable public transport nearby, including the tram, 3) there are quite a lot of people who live near to Toton sidings, and 4) while not perfect, it would have been relatively accessible to large parts of Nottingham and Derby. None of that could be said about East Midland Parkway. Most of the trains that currently stop there will be the services that would be replaced by HS2.

So, if this happens, surely there would be no station at all in the vicinity of Trent Junction (unless at Trent Junction itself), and trains will simply go straight through to Nottingham (direct) and Sheffield (either up the Erewash Valley or via Derby)

 

[Kettledrum]

The pre budget chatter has thrown up a lot of speculation about what might happen in the short term to the Eastern leg of HS2 between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield.

- Will classic compatible trains service central Derby and Nottingham?
- Will existing tracks be used and upgraded to 125mph running?
- Well plans for a Toton station be permanently shelved and replaced with new platforms at East Midlands Parkway?
- Will HS2 trains to Leeds use existing tracks through the Erewash area to get to Sheffield and onto new HS2 track nearer Leeds?

Speculate here please.

 

[HS2isgood]

The pre budget chatter has thrown up a lot of speculation about what might happen in the short term to the Eastern leg of HS2 between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield.

- Will classic compatible trains service central Derby and Nottingham?

I am pretty sure they will. It can be done splitting at East Midlands Parkway, to waste less paths into Euston.

- Will existing tracks be used and upgraded to 125mph running?

I don't think so, except maybe there will be upgrades in the Erewash Valley.

- Well plans for a Toton station be permanently shelved and replaced with new platforms at East Midlands Parkway?

Yeah, I think the hub function will be assumed by East Midlands Parkway.

- Will HS2 trains to Leeds use existing tracks through the Erewash area to get to Sheffield and onto new HS2 track nearer Leeds?

From Birmingham: yes.
From London: idk, it may be slower than via Manchester. I am pretty sure the Erewash Gap will get built at some point, it's a glaring gap in HS2.

Speculate here please.

 

[JonathanH]

Well plans for a Toton station be permanently shelved and replaced with new platforms at East Midlands Parkway?

Would development of the Ratcliffe Power Station site be better than what was planned for Toton?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I think they could put some platformes to the East of the existing East Midlands Parkway where the cooling towers of Ratcliffe on Soar power station are.

 

[HSTEd]

From London: idk, it may be slower than via Manchester. I am pretty sure the Erewash Gap will get built at some point, it's a glaring gap in HS2.

I honestly doubt it, the most important part of HS2-East (Birmingham-vicinity Nottingham) will be built, and the bit in Yorkshire is only being built for purely political reasons.

There are a lot of better places to spend ~80km of high speed railway than bypassing Sheffield.

That much gets you Wigan to near Oxenholme, or most of the way from Birmingham to Bristol.

 

[CdBrux]

what is the current speed of the Erewash valley line?

 

[edwin_m]

what is the current speed of the Erewash valley line?

80mph max, constrained by curvature and in a former mining district so may be difficult to increase.

 

[PTR 444]

Direct HS2 trains between London Euston and Derby/Nottingham is a good idea in principle, but another poster pointed out on the other thread that it would only make sense if the “middle” bit of HS2 East NEVER gets built, otherwise you will have to remove the East Midlands trains in order to achieve the original plan of HS2 trains from London to York/Newcastle.

At least having the hub at EMD rather than Toton means it will be easier for HS2 passengers to connect with existing trains to Derby/Nottingham, especially if HS2 won’t be serving those cities.

In regards to service provision on the East Midlands leg, I would at the very minimum have 2tph London to Sheffield (possibly with Nottingham portions split at EMD), 2tph Birmingham to Leeds and 1tph Birmingham to Newcastle running via the Old Road and Moorthorpe - Church Fenton line.

 

[30907]

I too suspect Leeds via Manchester (LL through station) will be the faster option.

I would go for a significant new-build providing 2 additional direct tracks between Chesterfield and Sheffield, with the line continuing to a Meadowhall Parkway/Rotherham station (whose main operational purpose would be to save turning trains round in Sheffield Midland, thus avoiding a total rebuild).

How you get from East Mids to Clay Cross I don't know - ideally via Derby but that may be too slow.

Beyond Meadowhall I'll leave to someone else's crayons...

 

[PTR 444]

I too suspect Leeds via Manchester (LL through station) will be the faster option.

Does anyone know whether a through HS2-NPR station at Manchester is actually happening? Surely this would need to be considered if London - Leeds via Manchester is to be competitive with other routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the leaks are true, them...

Will classic compatible trains service central Derby and Nottingham?

Almost certainly. It would be a great benefit to the business case, and good ‘levelling up’ for the E Mids.

Will existing tracks be used and upgraded to 125mph running?

On the Erewash Valley some upgrades are possible, maybe even probable.

Well plans for a Toton station be permanently shelved and replaced with new platforms at East Midlands Parkway?

Toton shelved probably (seeing as the line wouldn’t go there), East Midlands maybe. But the current 0stforms are hardly stretched for capacity.

Will HS2 trains to Leeds use existing tracks through the Erewash area to get to Sheffield and onto new HS2 track nearer Leeds?

Possibly

Does anyone know whether a through HS2-NPR station at Manchester is actually happening? Surely this would need to be considered if London - Leeds via Manchester is to be competitive with other routes.

We’ve done this to death before. It makes minimal difference to journey time whether it is a through station or terminus station. It is irrelevant to London -Leeds via Manchester journey times, if that is even a thing.

 

[snowball]

There has never yet been an official proposal for a through high-speed station at Manchester. As I understand it, it has not even been on a mainstream TfN wishlist - only on a Greater Manchester wishlist.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

If HS2 connects to East Midlands Parkway, it would be a total waste of time stopping there, people want direct trains. Few in Derby (etc) would catch a train to nowhere to wait for another train, when Crosscountry run strait into Birmingham, and Midland Mainline run direct to London.
Same was the flaw of the Toton and Meadowhall plans. HS2 should just run to the current city centre stations along a faster track.

 

[JonathanH]

HS2 should just run to the current city centre stations along a faster track.

How? There isn't room for a faster track into those city centre stations.