HS2 Eastern Leg updates

[fishwomp]

I think the eastern branch to Leeds (or certainly north of the East Midlands) is still considered to be on the cards like Piccadilly P15 & P16 is still on the cards. Not officially cancelled, just sat at the very bottom of the ‘to-do’ pile. NPR via Bradford is probably very close to it.

And is an announcement from the current government of a spending that is not set to happen until the next government or the one after that really worth the paper it is (not) written on. I mean, what'd be the harm in promising a Briton on the moon in 2040 and a tunnel to Northern Ireland if you don't need to pay for it now .. it's all probably worth a few extra votes (and a few negative ones).

Even confirmation from current governments have not really held steady beyond 1-2 financial years. Oxford-Cambridge by 2025 is now 2028 or later, Transpennine electrification was shambolically canned after a promise. Every flavour of government seems to act the same way. With such consistent changing, you have to wonder how the IEP project survived two different parties's governments - and that was a bad spend without a doubt.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think that Andy Street has much clout concerning what happens regarding HS2.

None at all, but he should have a good idea of the government's current thinking.

Being a Tory I would expect him to be given more insight than his Labour counterparts (eg Andy Burham).

However I think you will need both West Midlands Engine and HS2.

HS2 will not solve some of the issues Andy Street raises about Birmingham to Manchester Intercity services and removing them from the current classic railway because they come from south of Birmingham (Bournemouth and Bristol). The only way you would do that is terminate those services at New Street from the south but then you wouldn't free capacity at New Street fo other services in their place due to longer turnarounds vice running through. It also means passengers having to change stations from New Street to Curazon Street for the HS2 Birmingham to Manchester service that Andy Street wants and refers to in the video posted above.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

HS2 will not solve some of the issues Andy Street raises about Birmingham to Manchester Intercity services and removing them from the current classic railway because they come from south of Birmingham (Bournemouth and Bristol). The only way you would do that is terminate those services at New Street from the south but then you wouldn't free capacity at New Street fo other services in their place due to longer turnarounds vice running through. It also means passengers having to change stations from New Street to Curazon Street for the HS2 Birmingham to Manchester service that Andy Street wants and refers to in the video posted above.

I am sure that will be seen as a retrograde step for those who would be forced to make such a move. Far more worse that what has been suggested in the past on this website for people bound for Manchester Airport on direct services from places far away by terminating those services in bay platforms at Manchester Piccadilly and decanting their passengers who would then be forced to take "the long walk" to the through platforms 13 and 14.

 

[Purple Orange]

I am sure that will be seen as a retrograde step for those who would be forced to make such a move. Far more worse that what has been suggested in the past on this website for people bound for Manchester Airport on direct services from places far away by terminating those services in bay platforms at Manchester Piccadilly and decanting their passengers who would then be forced to take "the long walk" to the through platforms 13 and 14.

Should there ever be electrification from Birmingham to Bristol or Reading, I could see a day where we have through services via New Street head to Crewe and then on to the HS2 line to Piccadilly, then to Leeds. Like XC today it would be an amalgamation of services in to one longer journey, but it would provide the required connectivity and vastly improve connections between Yorkshire and the M6 corridor.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Maybe quoted elsewhere but Shapps gave an interview to FT a few days back and which he said

Transport secretary Grant Shapps has signalled a major rethink of the £100bn High Speed 2 rail line between London and northern England, saying ministers could no longer “blindly follow” a blueprint dating back to the last Labour government. Ministers are shortly expected to announce a delay to the eastern leg of HS2 between Birmingham and Leeds, with priority given instead to an east-west rail scheme between Leeds and Manchester called Northern Powerhouse Rail and nicknamed HS3. In an interview with the Financial Times, Shapps endorsed Northern Powerhouse Rail and Midlands Rail Hub, a scheme to improve east-west links in that region and provide access to HS2 at Birmingham. “Midlands Rail Hub and Northern Powerhouse Rail are things, they’ve been invented, they hadn’t been when HS2 was first designed,” he said. “We need to work these things together. Are we doing things in the best way and in the right order?”

Then we know BoJo reinforced NPR in his speech so I guess when IRP is released later this month it will crystallise the various rumors, leaks advanced positioning like this. I the like the way he has now dissing the policy he was only espousing a few months and blaming it on Labour ideas. So if they didn't support why waste time and money on it and not get on with NPR which isn't exactly going to be sorted overnight and will now impose years of disruption on the North and probably prevent any material improvements to todays service levels.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The HS2 boss said several months ago that they were "not doing any work on the eastern leg" by direction of the DfT, who told them to concentrate on the western leg to Manchester.
So from that point, they were not "wasting time and money on it".
It remains to be seen how much of the eastern leg is retained as part of the NPR/Integrated Rail Plan scheme.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The HS2 boss said several months ago that they were "not doing any work on the eastern leg" by direction of the DfT, who told them to concentrate on the western leg to Manchester.
So from that point, they were not "wasting time and money on it".
It remains to be seen how much of the eastern leg is retained as part of the NPR/Integrated Rail Plan scheme.

Fair point but prior to this they had been expending costs albeit minuscule compared to phase 1 and 2a but lets hope the IPR at least sets a clear vision of what is wanted so the industry can get on with delivering the infrastructure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know where to put this, as HS2/NPR/TPU debate is split over several threads.
But the Independent is reporting that the HS2 eastern leg will get its Leeds station and route through West Yorks, but will not be funded south of there.
North’s rail ‘betrayal’: HS2 set to run on existing track in shoestring plan for Yorkshire route (msn.com)

The reasoning is that the Leeds section is key to the NPR route (though it is not explained how).

The Independent has now learned that a new station in Leeds and a new line connecting the city to South Yorkshire are both likely to be given the go-ahead – but, from there, trains heading south will have to run on existing track for much of the way to Birmingham.
It means that journey times from Yorkshire to London will be significantly longer than originally proposed and existing bottlenecks on the network will go unresolved resulting in little extra capacity.

Treasury plans to mothball the eastern leg completely are understood to have been spiked after furious Tory MPs representing “red wall” seats along the route baulked at the prospect – first revealed in The Independent earlier this month.
Instead, trains heading south will now leave Leeds via a new purpose-built HS2 line but will transfer to existing tracks in the village of Clayton on the border of the West and South Yorkshire counties. From there, they will run at slow speeds for at least 60 miles before possibly joining with a new line at the East Midlands Parkway station.
A purpose-built hub in the Nottinghamshire village of Toton – which would have connected Derby and Nottingham to HS2 – will be dropped altogether.

Sources suggest the compromise to build some new track in Yorkshire came after intense negotiations between the Treasury and No 10, which sees the project as crucial to its “levelling up” agenda.
It is understood the new Leeds to Clayton development survived the axe because it is fundamental to the proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail – another new line that will eventually run east to west, connecting Leeds to Manchester.

No doubt it's all speculation, but it is the time for inspired leaks leading up to the budget on Wed 27th.
And by "Clifton" do they really mean Crofton, which is roughly where the HS2 planned route crosses the Leeds-Wakefield-Doncaster route, connecting to the ECML and Sheffield?

 

[The Ham]

Not sure where best to post the whole story, but part of the following article could be relevent to this thread:

Boris Johnson ‘demands more cash for Red Wall rail plan’ in latest spending battle with No11

The Prime Minister wants proposals for Northern Powerhouse Rail to be more ambitious, i understands.

inews.co.uk

Fears have been growing that the project (NPR) will now be downgraded and encompass mainly upgrades on the existing Transpennine route as the Treasury tries to save money.

Meanwhile, the final phase of HS2 high-speed rail from Birmingham to Leeds is widely expected to be scrapped or delayed when the IRP is published, with sources suggesting the link will only go as far as the East Midlands.

 

[WatcherZero]

NPR is planning to use it for a Sheffield-Leeds service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

NPR is planning to use it for a Sheffield-Leeds service.

But that rather begs the question about where the trans-Pennine NPR route will go.
A new station and 360km/h route for 15 miles into Leeds for a few regional trains doesn't seem right.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

What this tells me is how disconnected from reality politicians are - ‘build some track in Yorkshire’ doesn’t automatically translate into getting the benefits of it. Bit like the idiot who asked in the 1980s why the Channel Tunnel wasn’t being built in the north!

 

[WatcherZero]

Its what happens when they listen to the idiots saying "start in the north first"

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Clayton is between Thurnscoe and Moorthorpe on the Swinton and Knottingley Joint - the old station was called Frickley. Presumably it will mean fettling up the 'Old Road' and Erewash Valley to get to East Midlands Parkway. I think the reference to NPR is to provide the station in Leeds - unless NPR is routed further south?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Clayton is between Thurnscoe and Moorthorpe on the Swinton and Knottingley Joint - the old station was called Frickley. Presumably it will mean fettling up the 'Old Road' and Erewash Valley to get to East Midlands Parkway. I think the reference to NPR is to provide the station in Leeds - unless NPR is routed further south?

Ah right, another Clayton, so south of Moorthorpe on the XC route to Sheffield.
So there won't even be the option of working ECML services into the new Leeds station over the new line.

 

[HSTEd]

So essentially, Toton is replaced with East Midlands Parkway and the line bypassing Sheffield is axed?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So essentially, Toton is replaced with East Midlands Parkway and the line bypassing Sheffield is axed?

Assuming the Water Orton-East Midlands Parkway HSL line is built, the East Midlands/Sheffield HS2 services will be localised/slowed, and London-Leeds services remain on the ECML until the missing link is built, unless there's an NPR solution via Manchester.
Leeds-Birmingham will still get a speed uplift, but not as much as originally planned.
We then need to look at the NPR route to see what else is in store.
The Church Fenton branch also looks superfluous now.

 

[david1212]

To me two factors -

The first is aiming not to upset all those traditional labour voters who switched to tory in 2019 by making investment in the north.

The second is the realisation that NPR is needed far more than HS2. However having started HS2 to Crewe then maybe a watered down continuation to Manchester but no link from Birmingham Interchange through the East Midlands to Sheffield and Leeds will reduce the farebox income from the core of HS2 including both London stations to Birmingham significantly. To get the best long term value for money the eastern arm from Birmingham Interchange is required.

 

[Jozhua]

Yeah this is really odd and risks making transport connectivity worse in the Midlands, rather than better. The MML is pretty crowded and you can see that from limited service in large towns like Belper.

I'm under no doubt savings will be minimal and it will be found that doing things this way will be a monumental pain in the arse, resulting in plenty of disruption for people using these lines.

My only hope is that it can be revisited and fixed in the future.

To me two factors -

The first is aiming not to upset all those traditional labour voters who switched to tory in 2019 by making investment in the north.

The second is the realisation that NPR is needed far more than HS2. However having started HS2 to Crewe then maybe a watered down continuation to Manchester but no link from Birmingham Interchange through the East Midlands to Sheffield and Leeds will reduce the farebox income from the core of HS2 including both London stations to Birmingham significantly. To get the best long term value for money the eastern arm from Birmingham Interchange is required.

I agree that, regardless of your perspective on HS2, it is undeniable that the Eastern Leg provides the most value out of the whole project. To remove it will significantly reduce the benefits HS2 was designed to provide.

 

[Starmill]

Is an East Midlands Parkway link really going to be going ahead? Even though the Toton route has already done design and consultation?

 

[Verulamius]

So the HS2 eastern missing gap will need to be electrified?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So the HS2 eastern missing gap will need to be electrified?

You'd have to get HS2 trains to Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield at least, if the link to East Mids Pkwy was built.
The simplest solution would be to electrify the lot, but whether that is what happens we'll have to see.
There's still time for positions to be reversed before anything is announced.

 

[edwin_m]

But that rather begs the question about where the trans-Pennine NPR route will go.
A new station and 360km/h route for 15 miles into Leeds for a few regional trains doesn't seem right.

I think Sheffield-Leeds is considered an important part of NPR like Manchester-Leeds - arguably more so as the present service is worse.

An option might be to connect eastwards from Clayton to join the ECML or its Leeds branch around Doncaster, and keep the fastest London-Leeds service via the ECML but bypass the relatively slow route through Wakefield. I suspect that would be faster than using HS2 to East Midlands Parkway then the existing network to Clayton.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

We are in speculation territory here so when do we find out? This week? I think too much political capital has been invested. It goes ahead but delayed.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Assuming this speculation as fact for a minute (it might have been leaked to gauge public opinion on the matter), wouldn't HS2 from Leeds to Birmingham not via Toton on existing track destroy the speed and capacity arguments of the whole project?

 

[ABB125]

Assuming this speculation as fact for a minute (it might have been leaked to gauge public opinion on the matter), wouldn't HS2 from Leeds to Birmingham not via Toton on existing track destroy the speed and capacity arguments of the whole project?

Don't bring facts into the argument!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Don't bring facts into the argument!

Okay, personally I think good riddance, the whole scheme is a pink elephant, it's going to cost a fortune building a fancy new station in Leeds and buying highspeed trains just to run through Belper and Burton at current speeds.

 

[ABB125]

Okay, personally I think good riddance, the whole scheme is a pink elephant, it's going to cost a fortune building a fancy new station in Leeds and buying highspeed trains just to run through Belper and Burton at current speeds.

Whilst I disagree with you regarding the overall scheme, I fully agree that it would be extremely silly to only do half a job. Unfortunately, politics doesn't often align with this argument...

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least if you build some of it, it's easier to add to it later. If you can the whole thing it'll never happen.

 

[Ianno87]

At least if you build some of it, it's easier to add to it later. If you can the whole thing it'll never happen.

Yep. The important thing is, whatever is initially built is done in such a way not to prevent the full shebang being completed at a later date.