Amateur Radio and the Railways

[thenorthern]

This may seem a strange question but I am a licenced radio Amature Radio operator and I was wondering what the rules are for using equipment on stations and trains. (Obviously handheld sized equpiment)

I am only asking because I regularly use mine at stations but I was stopped recently by a member of TOC security who said I was a terrorist risk so I agreed to stop using my radio on the station although he felt a need to keep an eye on me until my train arrived and to tell the guard to keep an eye on me.

 

[Lockwood]

In terms of the licence, surely you are allowed to(*)? You're not marine or aviation mobile.
I don't think I've operated from a station though.

Maybe they considered the radio something which may annoy/threaten others? Or argued it was equipment for the production of sound.
To go down the terrorism route seems a bit asinine

(*) Excluding UHF at Charing Cross, etc

 

[thenorthern]

I think he was worried that I had the potential to listen to the UHF station radios used by the TOC staff that he was worried about.

 

[Lockwood]

Which you could do with your radio off of the station. (If you could do it on the station)
Or on the station by being stood near a member of staff.

 

[DarloRich]

whilst it does seem a little over the top perhaps the response should be considered in light of the time of heightened tension ( we are told) in which we live. It might have been sensible to discuss this with the station staff before using your radio in order to reduce their concerns.

 

[JohnB57]

The terrorism card is a catch-all for those with more authority than their brain cells can cope with. I've used my gear - discreetly - in railway stations, airports and on ferries etc. for years and have never been asked to stop what I was doing.

Having said that, it's only amateur radio so if somebody asks you to stop when you're in a private facility, it's really not worth arguing with them - but pointing out that you hold a valid Ofcom licence whilst at the same time complying with their request might help them to understand that there are people out there who have radio as a perfectly legitimate hobby.

Listening in to their comms is of course illegal so probably best to skirt that one...

 

[SPADTrap]

Can someone fill in those of us who are unfamiliar with what this would look like and involve? Indeed what is having radio as a hobby? Sounds interesting!

 

[DarloRich]

Can someone fill in those of us who are unfamiliar with what this would look like and involve? Indeed what is having radio as a hobby? Sounds interesting!

try: http://www.nationalradiocentre.com/

A world class radio communications educational centre is now open at Bletchley Park in Buckinghamshire

or http://rsgb.org/

Amateur radio is a popular technical hobby and volunteer public service that uses designated radio frequencies for the non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, and emergency communications

 

[Lockwood]

Listening in to their comms is of course illegal so probably best to skirt that one...

But anyone can walk to Maplin and buy a cheap scanner.
Stick it in your backpack, connect it to normal earbuds, who's going to know?

Thinking that someone who is trying to listen in on station staff radios by sitting on the platform with a transceiver is like thinking that a robber looks like this:

 

[JohnB57]

Can someone fill in those of us who are unfamiliar with what this would look like and involve? Indeed what is having radio as a hobby? Sounds interesting!

The hobby of Amateur Radio goes back around 100 years and was originally intended to grant hobbyists - "Radio Hams" - a licence to experiment with what was then new technology. It allows transmission over a range of frequencies and in pretty much any "mode" you wish. You'll be aware of AM, FM and Morse Code as examples, but today there are many others including digital modes.

Today, there are three tiers of licence - Foundation, Intermediate and Full - and these each have exams that allow you to progress. On passing one of the exams, you can apply to Ofcom for a licence and with that comes an internationally recognised "callsign" - mine for example is "G0SJB".

The national society is the Radio Society of Great Britain who represent the UK radio amateur movement internationally. Worth a look if you're interested.

Far more to it than that, but you get the gist I hope.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But anyone can walk to Maplin and buy a cheap scanner.
Stick it in your backpack, connect it to normal earbuds, who's going to know

I agree. But it is illegal so probably best not to bring the subject up...

 

[thenorthern]

With the regard to scanners they are indeed illegal to use with the intent of listening to broadcasts that the user dosent have permission to listen to under the Wireless Telography Act. 2006 although I would say that at least 90% of people who own scanners buy them exactly for that purpose.

Before the move to GSM-R I think some trainspotters used to use them but I don't know if that's just an urban myth.

I do have a scanner which I use to test if my equipment is hitting repeaters.

 

[JohnB57]

With the regard to scanners they are indeed illegal to use with the intent of listening to broadcasts that the user dosent have permission to listen to under the Wireless Telography Act. 2006 although I would say that at least 90% of people who own scanners buy them exactly for that purpose.

I'd say the figure was nearer 100%!

One pedantic point.

A "broadcast" is intended to be heard widely - the BBC is a broadcaster and has the relevant licence to do so.

A "transmission" is generally point to point, or between two or maybe a small group of licensed individuals. It is outside the terms of an individual amateur licence to "broadcast", hence the use of the RSGB's licence, who have that facility, for their Sunday news.

It's a technical point but one that is often misunderstood.

 

[AM9]

I'd say the figure was nearer 100%!

One pedantic point.

A "broadcast" is intended to be heard widely - the BBC is a broadcaster and has the relevant licence to do so.

A "transmission" is generally point to point, or between two or maybe a small group of licensed individuals. It is outside the terms of an individual amateur licence to "broadcast", hence the use of the RSGB's licence, who have that facility, for their Sunday news.

It's a technical point but one that is often misunderstood.

Here is a typical handheld transceiver for the 2M and 70cm amateur bands:

It could be seen as a security radio by an ill-informed person but a headset would look just like a mobile phone one. I have never met a licenced amateur who didn't respect the rules of safe operation, not like idiots with a mobile.

 

[NSEFAN]

In my university radio club, it is a convention that anyone using radio whilst on a train should announce themselves as "Choo-Choo mobile".

 

[Western Lord]

My only knowledge of radio hams comes from Tony Hancock. Seems like a lot of trouble to find out that it's not raining in Tokyo!

 

[Lockwood]

Interediate licence holders on the train should identify as Choo Choo E/M/W Zero ABC

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I have used my ATS 909X openly on stations many times including York, Doncaster, Leeds and St Pancras and never had any issues regarding its usage from railway staff.

With the regard to scanners they are indeed illegal to use with the intent of listening to broadcasts that the user dosent have permission to listen to under the Wireless Telography Act. 2006 although I would say that at least 90% of people who own scanners buy them exactly for that purpose.

I have always understood it to be okay to listen in to it but not to act upon information. I remember when Concorde retired - the amount of scanners out there those last few weeks was amazing!

 

[JohnB57]

I have always understood it to be okay to listen in to it but not to act upon information. I remember when Concorde retired - the amount of scanners out there those last few weeks was amazing!

It's a technicality - as you say, it's not policed and the number of scanners out there would make that impossible.

However, the act makes it illegal to listen in without authority and, even if you have that, to then pass on any information heard or to act on it without specific permission.

Interception and disclosure of messages

(1)A person commits an offence if, otherwise than under the authority of a designated person—

(a)he uses wireless telegraphy apparatus with intent to obtain information as to the contents, sender or addressee of a message (whether sent by means of wireless telegraphy or not) of which neither he nor a person on whose behalf he is acting is an intended recipient, or

(b)he discloses information as to the contents, sender or addressee of such a message​

 

[BestWestern]

The terrorism card is a catch-all for those with more authority than their brain cells can cope with. I've used my gear - discreetly - in railway stations, airports and on ferries etc. for years and have never been asked to stop what I was doing.

Listening in to their comms is of course illegal so probably best to skirt that one...

What the 'terrorism card' does do is impress upon people the need to be aditionally vigilant, and to report anything out of course or suspicious. To the average person, somebody using a small radio device is very much out of course, and it is entirely understandable that you may be approached and seen as a tad suspicious if you are sat on a station doing that. You say you use yout kit regularly, but then feel the need to add 'discreetly' - which confirms that you are aware that what you are doing is indeed likely to attract hostile attention; otherwise you would do it openly, no?

There is also your other point, that there is the potential to be breaking the law by accessing the transmissions of others. Sat in a place where radios are in use in an official capacity, using a device which has the sole purpose of listening in to such transmissions, is surely proof of intent to break the law? Rather like those who are found to be 'going equipped' for theft or suchlike. Requesting an explanation is hardly unreasonable behaviour. I'm not suggesting that it's the crime of the century, but berating those who are carrying out their duties under such circumstances is rather poor form.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I was under the impression that most stations used radios that were encrypted to only allow reception by others on a "network".

I use my equipment to listen to radio transmission that do not legally exist - therefore nothing wrong really...!

Not entirely certain if there is any rule against using a radio on a railway station - maybe one of the more knowledgeable people can check the bye-laws

 

[westv]

Ham radio? Takes me back to my days as G4OHL back in the 80s. Gave it all up over 20 years ago though. I still remember buying a £10 postage stamp to stick on my morse exam application to the Post Office.

 

[JohnB57]

What the 'terrorism card' does do is impress upon people the need to be aditionally vigilant, and to report anything out of course or suspicious. To the average person, somebody using a small radio device is very much out of course, and it is entirely understandable that you may be approached and seen as a tad suspicious if you are sat on a station doing that. You say you use yout kit regularly, but then feel the need to add 'discreetly' - which confirms that you are aware that what you are doing is indeed likely to attract hostile attention; otherwise you would do it openly, no?

There is also your other point, that there is the potential to be breaking the law by accessing the transmissions of others. Sat in a place where radios are in use in an official capacity, using a device which has the sole purpose of listening in to such transmissions, is surely proof of intent to break the law? Rather like those who are found to be 'going equipped' for theft or suchlike. Requesting an explanation is hardly unreasonable behaviour. I'm not suggesting that it's the crime of the century, but berating those who are carrying out their duties under such circumstances is rather poor form.

I think you should read my post again and get off your high horse.

I agree. Don't argue with them, just offer an explanation and if it isn't accepted, stop what you're doing. It's not worth getting worked up over - it's only amateur radio - that's what I said isn't it?

The terrorism card comment was made in the context of those who use it as a default rationale because actually they don't have any real authority to stop you doing what you're doing and can't think of another reason to interfere. Read the multiple threads on station photography - you know I'm right.

And, of course, the OP was referring to his legally licensed radio ham activity, not to any form of illegal activity, which in even if it were illegal, would not be within the remit of station security to prevent, only to report it to the police.

You really need to avoid twisting perfectly reasonable arguments to make some spurious point of your own. It's not clever.

 

[Lockwood]

There is also your other point, that there is the potential to be breaking the law by accessing the transmissions of others. Sat in a place where radios are in use in an official capacity, using a device which has the sole purpose of listening in to such transmissions, is surely proof of intent to break the law?

That has some degree of wibble to it.
I've walked through a shopping centre with a transceiver. Does that mean I am intending to break the law by listening to the shopwatch/security?
Also, an amateur radio does not have the "sole purpose of listening in to such transmissions". Its purpose is to operate on the amateur bands.

To extend your analogy - if I hold a Hornby loco on a platform, am I proving an intention of impersonating railway staff? After all, I am holding something which has thee sole purpose to run along railway track.
I could do something stupid and see how well it runs at 750VDC, but it is not sensible to assume that that is what I will do.
In the same regard "You have a black box with an aerial, we have black boxes with aerials, therefore you are trying to listen in" is a bit of a silly argument.

 

[JohnB57]

That has some degree of wibble to it.

Beautifully understated...

I was under the impression that most stations used radios that were encrypted to only allow reception by others on a "network".

The railway still uses low power unencrypted FM repeaters at certain main locations for their platform staff handheld radios. It allows the use of inexpensive equipment in non-sensitive applications and is not heavily used.

Not entirely certain if there is any rule against using a radio on a railway station - maybe one of the more knowledgeable people can check the bye-laws

I'd be very surprised if there was even any mention of it. In fact believe it or not it isn't illegal to use hand-held amateur radio equipment whilst driving. That's not to say it's safe - it isn't - but the law is quite specific about the equipment that cannot be used whilst driving and that is pretty much limited to mobile phones, even specifying the frequency bands that they use. Bizarre you might say, but true.

 

[BestWestern]

That has some degree of wibble to it.
I've walked through a shopping centre with a transceiver. Does that mean I am intending to break the law by listening to the shopwatch/security?
Also, an amateur radio does not have the "sole purpose of listening in to such transmissions". Its purpose is to operate on the amateur bands.

To extend your analogy - if I hold a Hornby loco on a platform, am I proving an intention of impersonating railway staff? After all, I am holding something which has thee sole purpose to run along railway track.
I could do something stupid and see how well it runs at 750VDC, but it is not sensible to assume that that is what I will do.
In the same regard "You have a black box with an aerial, we have black boxes with aerials, therefore you are trying to listen in" is a bit of a silly argument.

I would be most intrigued to see your 750V experiment!

The point is that staff on the railway are constantly reminded how important it is that they are vigilant against anything and everything. That is the climate in which rail staff are operating. Walking through a shopping centre may or may not attract attention, depending entirely on how the security staff have been briefed and how vigilant they are. There is a tendency for people to get frustrated when staff on the railway question what they are doing. It's entirely understandable, and of course in almost all cases they are doing something completely innocent. And, of course, in some cases the staff concerned have a poor attitude. But equally, it pays to remember that those who may challenge somebody will have been told to be wary. The threat level is 'Severe'. If it seems in any way suspicious, staff are duty bound to take some form of action. The frequent comparisons with various other public places often do not stand up, because many other public places take a less rigorous approach to security.

 

[JohnB57]

The point is that staff on the railway are constantly reminded how important it is that they are vigilant against anything and everything. That is the climate in which rail staff are operating. Walking through a shopping centre may or may not attract attention, depending entirely on how the security staff have been briefed and how vigilant they are. There is a tendency for people to get frustrated when staff on the railway question what they are doing. It's entirely understandable, and of course in almost all cases they are doing something completely innocent. And, of course, in some cases the staff concerned have a poor attitude. But equally, it pays to remember that those who may challenge somebody will have been told to be wary. The threat level is 'Severe'. If it seems in any way suspicious, staff are duty bound to take some form of action. The frequent comparisons with various other public places often do not stand up, because many other public places take a less rigorous approach to security.

And yet the majority of people between certain ages walk everywhere with a mobile phone clamped to their heads with complete impunity.

You'd have to be pretty dim to take the view that people using a handheld radio were more of a threat than those "hiding in plain sight".

However, as I say, in over quarter of a century using handheld radios I have never been queried. Conversely I have been allowed into situations that were closed to the public because, by accident, my radio made me look official. But that's another story...

 

[Lockwood]

But your argument that possessing a radio for use on band X is there solely to listen to band Y for nefarious intent is likewise poor. The assertion that that is the sole purpose for having that equipment.

Again, another loose example. I could have the Anarchist's Cookbook on my Kindle. Or Spot Takes a Walk.
You could, but should not, assume that the Kindle is there for bad things. Your argument would seem to lean towards the "Kindle could have bad stuff, therefore it does, therefore it is bad" camp?

 

[JohnB57]

I could have the Anarchist's Cookbook on my Kindle. Or Spot Takes a Walk.

Have you been hacking my Kindle..?

 

[Lockwood]

No comment

 

[JohnB57]

Qsl...