An Alternative Liverpool—London Service

[gsc777]

Following Friday's events completely decommissioning Euston, it has occured to me that the good people of Liverpool & Manchester deserve to have at least one actual alternative to the horrors of Avanti West Coast and the West Coast Main Line. The proposal I have, which would make most sense as an EMR service, is really just a synthesised version of the Liverpool—Sheffield and Sheffield—London services. From St. Pancras, fast services would run non-stop to Sheffield, then continue to Manchester Piccadilly, calling at Stockport. From Manchester, trains could run via Newton-le-Willows or Warrington Central, perhaps alternating between the two? Semi-fast trains would also call at Leicester & Derby.

Final Service Route:
- London St. Pancras International
- Leicester (semi-fast only)
- Derby (semi-fast only)
- Sheffield
- Stockport
- Manchester Piccadilly
- Warrington Central (½tph)
- Newton-le-Willows (½tph)
- Liverpool Lime Street

Thoughts on this and it's feasibility? The aim of the service isn't necessarily to be faster than the WCML, but to provide an alternative route into London from Liverpool/Manchester without having to surrender to the chaos of the WCML/Avanti West Coast.

 

[Iskra]

Following Friday's events completely decommissioning Euston, it has occured to me that the good people of Liverpool & Manchester deserve to have at least one actual alternative to the horrors of Avanti West Coast and the West Coast Main Line. The proposal I have, which would make most sense as an EMR service, is really just a synthesised version of the Liverpool—Sheffield and Sheffield—London services. From St. Pancras, fast services would run non-stop to Sheffield, then continue to Manchester Piccadilly, calling at Stockport. From Manchester, trains could run via Newton-le-Willows or Warrington Central, perhaps alternating between the two? Semi-fast trains would also call at Leicester & Derby.

Final Service Route:
- London St. Pancras International
- Leicester (semi-fast only)
- Derby (semi-fast only)
- Sheffield
- Stockport
- Manchester Piccadilly
- Warrington Central (½tph)
- Newton-le-Willows (½tph)
- Liverpool Lime Street

Thoughts on this and it's feasibility? The aim of the service isn't necessarily to be faster than the WCML, but to provide an alternative route into London from Liverpool/Manchester without having to surrender to the chaos of the WCML/Avanti West Coast.

The people of Liverpool can already board a train to Sheffield if they so wish, and change there for London St Pancras. London St Pancras is already at capacity without random additional services with an extended end-to-end journey time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How about Liverpool (Lime Street) to/from London Liverpool Street? Or even London Waterloo?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a sensible answer to this - extend the LNR Crewe-Euston service back to Liverpool. I think this would be more popular than a second Avanti given the large market of e.g. students.

 

[gsc777]

There is a sensible answer to this - extend the LNR Crewe-Euston service back to Liverpool. I think this would be more popular than a second Avanti given the large market of e.g. students.

The thing is, Avanti themselves aren't the only problem here. The WCML is itself so congested, and as seen on Friday, with the way the line bottlenecks so easily, any unforeseen events like the unfortunate incident in Milton Keynes completely decommissions Euston. Another service to a different London terminus would really help. I suppose another option is extending the CrossCountry services to Liverpool so people can get to Reading and then Paddington. Either way, people should not have to double their journey time just to avoid the horrors of the WCML.

 

[irish_rail]

Liverpool via Birminhgam and Reading into Paddington would be more desirable in my view than going via Manchester and Sheffield.

 

[gsc777]

How about Liverpool (Lime Street) to/from London Liverpool Street? Or even London Waterloo?

God I'd love this, it'd be so funny I don't know whether the WAML can handle fast services - if it can, a Liverpool—London via Cambridge service isn't the worst idea in the world

Liverpool via Birminhgam and Reading into Paddington would be more desirable in my view than going via Manchester and Sheffield.

I wonder if there's any way to connect Snow Hill to the Liverpool lines? A service from Liverpool to Marylebone isn't a bad idea

 

[The Planner]

The people of Liverpool can already board a train to Sheffield if they so wish, and change there for London St Pancras. London St Pancras is already at capacity without random additional services with an extended end-to-end journey time.

You can, but the connection is a bit cack currently. Would need some re-writing to make that a decent connection, which wouldn't be anyones priority.

I wonder if there's any way to connect Snow Hill to the Liverpool lines? A service from Liverpool to Marylebone isn't a bad idea

It would be a huge slog to do that and a time killer, you would have to go via Walsall and the Sutton Park down to Tyseley. Or the WSMR route via the Cov corridor, which is full to the brim.

 

[sprinterguy]

I wonder if there's any way to connect Snow Hill to the Liverpool lines? A service from Liverpool to Marylebone isn't a bad idea

Simpler, from an infrastructure if not necessarily a pathing perspective, to run via Birmingham New Street and use the existing link at Bordesley to join the Chiltern line, as the XC Newcastle - Reading services do at present.

 

[gsc777]

You can, but the connection is a bit cack currently. Would need some re-writing to make that a decent connection, which wouldn't be anyones priority.


It would be a huge slog to do that and a time killer, you would have to go via Walsall and the Sutton Park down to Tyseley. Or the WSMR route via the Cov corridor, which is full to the brim.

Someone else suggested running off the CML just before Moor Street into New Street

Simpler, from an infrastructure if not necessarily a pathing perspective, to run via Birmingham New Street and use the existing link at Bordesley to join the Chiltern line, as the XC Newcastle - Reading services do at present.

This could work if the service called at Crewe, New Street, Leamington Spa and High Wycombe? I think calling at Runcorn, Stafford or anywhere else on the CML just isn't worth the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing is, Avanti themselves aren't the only problem here. The WCML is itself so congested, and as seen on Friday, with the way the line bottlenecks so easily, any unforeseen events like the unfortunate incident in Milton Keynes completely decommissions Euston. Another service to a different London terminus would really help. I suppose another option is extending the CrossCountry services to Liverpool so people can get to Reading and then Paddington. Either way, people should not have to double their journey time just to avoid the horrors of the WCML.

I use the WCML a lot and it's mostly sloppy losses of 5 minutes here and 10 there plus Avanti's random outright cancellations. Total collapse, while it did happen on Friday (and caused me to drive to a Chiltern station instead), isn't actually that common.

 

[The Planner]

Someone else suggested running off the CML just before Moor Street into New Street

This could work if the service called at Crewe, New Street, Leamington Spa and High Wycombe? I think calling at Runcorn, Stafford or anywhere else on the CML just isn't worth the time.

Still a bit rubbish for capacity via Tyseley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can, but the connection is a bit cack currently. Would need some re-writing to make that a decent connection, which wouldn't be anyones priority.

If you want to get to London fast you use Avanti. If that isn't your priority, then just have a coffee or something while you wait.

Realistically though the sensible alternative route for Liverpool is down to Brum and onwards via Chiltern using existing services. Yes, it involves the WCML, but not the clogged up bit. And if it is completely knackered you could always go via the Marches.

 

[Topological]

If this was to be an alternative, then tagging it to Sheffield does not make much sense. Passengers for Sheffield would just use this one.

If an extension to a Nottingham terminator could be made then it would solve the St Pancras capacity issue, but would be even slower.

Although the WCML is problematic, surely the speed differential will triumph over the potential for disruption every time.

 

[Iskra]

You can, but the connection is a bit cack currently. Would need some re-writing to make that a decent connection, which wouldn't be anyones priority.


It would be a huge slog to do that and a time killer, you would have to go via Walsall and the Sutton Park down to Tyseley. Or the WSMR route via the Cov corridor, which is full to the brim.

There’s probably better connections, greater frequency and cheaper tickets connecting off the TP service from Liverpool to Doncaster and then heading to London from there.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Birkenhead Woodside - Chester - Gobowen - etc to Paddington.

Hang on that was ended in the 1960's when something called West Coast electrification came in - there was amazingly even a limited sleeper service........

The second train per hour from Euston to Liverpool should eventually ameliorate things........

 

[Helvellyn]

Following Friday's events completely decommissioning Euston, it has occured to me that the good people of Liverpool & Manchester deserve to have at least one actual alternative to the horrors of Avanti West Coast and the West Coast Main Line.

If this is just to avoid Euston how do you mitigate a similar event doing the same in Liverpool or Manchester? Surely you need a service that avoids Euston, Picadilly and Lime Street.

 

[Topological]

If this is just to avoid Euston how do you mitigate a similar event doing the same in Liverpool or Manchester? Surely you need a service that avoids Euston, Picadilly and Lime Street.

If that is the objective then use some spare terminal capacity at Southport then through Liverpool Central and out via a chord to the Wapping tunnel (it is a Merseyrail objective to have one) and then over the Chat Moss to Manchester Victoria. Round Philips Park and through Marple to access the Hope Valley. Then there are many possible choices about what to do from there.

No worries about speed after all.

 

[JonathanH]

Thoughts on this and it's feasibility? The aim of the service isn't necessarily to be faster than the WCML, but to provide an alternative route into London from Liverpool/Manchester without having to surrender to the chaos of the WCML/Avanti West Coast.

How often is the south WCML affected to such an extent that the railway needs to provide direct trains from Liverpool to London by three (or more) different routes? What happens when Avanti / LNWR are running reasonably well? Even a two hour delay on the direct route is quicker than going via Sheffield.

 

[zwk500]

All this seems rather a lot of effort compared to a decent Liverpool-Brum and tarting up the walk between New St and Moor St. As @Bletchleyite has said, speed-sensitive traffic is always going to go with Avanti.

 

[Energy]

Liverpool via Birminhgam and Reading into Paddington would be more desirable in my view than going via Manchester and Sheffield.

Why? Any passengers for Liverpool-Reading can do it easily with a change at Stafford (if an Avanti at the right time stops there), Crewe (if an XC at the right time stops there), Wolverhampton, or Birmingham New St.

This could work if the service called at Crewe, New Street, Leamington Spa and High Wycombe? I think calling at Runcorn, Stafford or anywhere else on the CML just isn't worth the time.

You'd be going via Wolverhampton, which has a 15mph curve and is otherwise still a comparatively slow route.

I'm concerned about who this service is for, Liverpool - Crewe - New St is well served (and going 2tph soonish), and Leamington Spa would be better served either by changing at Nuneaton (if the 2nd tph Avanti stopped there) or a well-timed connection with an XC at New St.

There is a sensible answer to this - extend the LNR Crewe-Euston service back to Liverpool. I think this would be more popular than a second Avanti given the large market of e.g. students.

I'd go for:

2tph LNWR Liverpool - Birmingham New St
2tph LNWR Crewe - London Euston
2tph AWC Liverpool - London Euston - stopping at Liverpool South Parkway (1tph), Runcorn (2tph), Crewe (2tph), Stafford (1tph), Nuneaton (1tph)

I'm not particularly fussed about which 1tph station ends up on which service, though Nuneaton should be able to connect with the xx25 to Leicester and the xx37 to Leamington Spa. Unfortunately, the other direction is the xx43 Leicester - Birmingham New St and the xx17 Leamington Spa - Nuneaton, which would be difficult to time well for both.

Ideally, there should be cheap Avanti tickets, though LNWR changing at Crewe wouldn't be difficult.

 

[irish_rail]

Why? Any passengers for Liverpool-Reading can do it easily with a change at Stafford (if an Avanti at the right time stops there), Crewe (if an XC at the right time stops there), Wolverhampton, or Birmingham New St.

You'd be going via Wolverhampton, which has a 15mph curve and is otherwise still a comparatively slow route.

I'm concerned about who this service is for, Liverpool - Crewe - New St is well served (and going 2tph soonish), and Leamington Spa would be better served either by changing at Nuneaton (if the 2nd tph Avanti stopped there) or a well-timed connection with an XC at New St.

I'd go for:

2tph LNWR Liverpool - Birmingham New St
2tph LNWR Crewe - London Euston
2tph AWC Liverpool - London Euston - stopping at Liverpool South Parkway (1tph), Runcorn (2tph), Crewe (2tph), Stafford (1tph), Nuneaton (1tph)

I'm not particularly fussed about which 1tph station ends up on which service, though Nuneaton should be able to connect with the xx25 to Leicester and the xx37 to Leamington Spa. Unfortunately, the other direction is the xx43 Leicester - Birmingham New St and the xx17 Leamington Spa - Nuneaton, which would be difficult to time well for both.

Ideally, there should be cheap Avanti tickets, though LNWR changing at Crewe wouldn't be difficult.

Changing trains is all well and good, until the train is late and connection missed. We should not underestimate the power of direct services linking important centres. Anything that gives Liverpool some direct services to the south should be welcomed.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Very slightly off-topic, and I know XC have major capacity issues, however I know a few who'd buy a cheap Manchester to London via Reading (GWR) or Birmingham (LNR/Chiltern) to avoid Avanti. The problem with the Northern or TfW/LNWR ticket is the Crewe to London just seems to drag on one basic train.

What about a new line altogether, maybe we could call it HS2?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

You can, but the connection is a bit cack currently. Would need some re-writing to make that a decent connection, which wouldn't be anyones priority.


It would be a huge slog to do that and a time killer, you would have to go via Walsall and the Sutton Park down to Tyseley. Or the WSMR route via the Cov corridor, which is full to the brim.

I wish they didn't convert the Snow Hill to Wolverhampton line to a tram!

Following Friday's events completely decommissioning Euston, it has occured to me that the good people of Liverpool & Manchester deserve to have at least one actual alternative to the horrors of Avanti West Coast and the West Coast Main Line. The proposal I have, which would make most sense as an EMR service, is really just a synthesised version of the Liverpool—Sheffield and Sheffield—London services. From St. Pancras, fast services would run non-stop to Sheffield, then continue to Manchester Piccadilly, calling at Stockport. From Manchester, trains could run via Newton-le-Willows or Warrington Central, perhaps alternating between the two? Semi-fast trains would also call at Leicester & Derby.

Final Service Route:
- London St. Pancras International
- Leicester (semi-fast only)
- Derby (semi-fast only)
- Sheffield
- Stockport
- Manchester Piccadilly
- Warrington Central (½tph)
- Newton-le-Willows (½tph)
- Liverpool Lime Street

Thoughts on this and it's feasibility? The aim of the service isn't necessarily to be faster than the WCML, but to provide an alternative route into London from Liverpool/Manchester without having to surrender to the chaos of the WCML/Avanti West Coast.

Funnily enough many years ago there was a model railway layout set in Widnes that was served with a Midland Mainline service that had this exact routing. Was a good layout too.