An approach to the North?

[Oswyntail]

An interesting piece by Evan Davies on the BBC website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26472423

The case for making Hebden Bridge the UK's second city

Birmingham and Manchester are usually mentioned when the subject of Britain's second city comes up. But is Hebden Bridge - population 4,200 - the rightful owner of the title?

However, there is an interesting alternative suggestion - Hebden Bridge. It is not a suggestion to take literally, but it does make an important point.

Hebden Bridge, nestling in the Pennines between Manchester and Leeds, is certainly one of the most interesting and flourishing towns in the UK. It was once declared the "fourth funkiest town in the world" (whatever that means) and is often said to be the lesbian capital of the UK.

Certainly, Hebden Bridge has attracted a lot of professional couples who are split commuters, one heading towards Manchester and one towards Leeds each morning. It is a place that allows both those cities to be treated as next door.. (read full article)

It asks which is, or should be, Britain's second city, and introduces statistics about the relative sizes of cities, and their productivity, in other countries, suggesting not that London is too big, but that other cities are too small. He comes up with the idea that the real "second city" is Hebden Bridge! An inverse city structure compared with others, with a small, discreet centre, surrounded by a rural belt, then with conurbation at its fringes, in the shape of Manchester, Leeds and Bradford. This "city" would fit the size standards of a "second city". More importantly, with the right infrastructure, it could generate much more wealth than the current divided cities.

I probably haven't summarised it very well, but it appeals to me. Any thoughts?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I fear that you have opened the proverbial "can of worms" with the widely-differing uses that different forum members will attach to the word "city".

 

[Greenback]

How do other European countries define their 'second city'? What is Germany's second city? Is it Hamburg? Munich? Or somewhere else? Does it need ot b defined? Does the UK need to have a second city at all?

As you can see, I don't really have an opinion, just a lot of questions!

Oh, another two questions, what does this have to do with railways? Shall I move the thread into General Discussion?

 

[Yew]

Definitely Ripon....

 

[Tim R-T-C]

A rather odd article that fails to mention the rival idea of a Primate City - a major city that is considerably larger than the next smallest and which is not considered a weakness.

It is common in a lot of countries (Wikipedia even has a helpful list), particularly those that have always been a single entity rather than a number of (semi-)independent regions in the recent past, eg. Germany, Italy, USA, Spain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would Chester with its iconic zoological gardens count as a PRIMATE city...

 

[Greenback]

Shall I move the thread into General Discussion?

Yes, I think I will!

 

[Oswyntail]

....
Oh, another two questions, what does this have to do with railways? Shall I move the thread into General Discussion?

As you have done - thanks. What was in my mind, though, was whether this fitted in to the "Dark clouds in the North" thread and decided against it. But my mind ran ahead of me, and I forgot to put my musing into my ramble.
What I wondered was whether (as hinted in the article) the beneficial effects of having a large city in the North of England could be created via an efficient transport infrastructure, without the down side of the urbanisation of green areas. IMHO, this is, in effect, what happens in the Central Belt in Scotland, chiefly because of the many and varied links between the two main cities. But this would need planning and control to be undertaken by a single over-arching authority, to avoid the petty squabbling that goes on between Leeds, Bradford and Manchester.
So, rail-wise, what, if anything, would need doing to achieve this? Is the "Northern Hub" likely to be enough? (Hence, in the rail discussion forum).

 

[Greenback]

As you have done - thanks. What was in my mind, though, was whether this fitted in to the "Dark clouds in the North" thread and decided against it. But my mind ran ahead of me, and I forgot to put my musing into my ramble.

I thought, at first glance, it was inspired by the 'Dark Clouds' thread, or maybe even split off from it, so I can see the connection.

What I wondered was whether (as hinted in the article) the beneficial effects of having a large city in the North of England could be created via an efficient transport infrastructure, without the down side of the urbanisation of green areas. IMHO, this is, in effect, what happens in the Central Belt in Scotland, chiefly because of the many and varied links between the two main cities. But this would need planning and control to be undertaken by a single over-arching authority, to avoid the petty squabbling that goes on between Leeds, Bradford and Manchester.
So, rail-wise, what, if anything, would need doing to achieve this? Is the "Northern Hub" likely to be enough? (Hence, in the rail discussion forum).

It might be an idea to start a new thread to focus on the rail aspects, and leave this one to discuss the economic aspects of the article. It does seem to be more about economics, hardly surprising given the author!

My own view is that we are slowly moving towards larger urban conglomerations - this is mooted for Cardiff/Newport, and has already happend in some respects with Swansea Bay replacing Swansea, Neath and Port Talbot. Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield are an obvious contender for this to happen.

Perhaps we are moving too slowly, perhaps it's not as good an idea as it seems. It's probably an interesting discussion, quite seperate from the railway angle.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was only last week when a suggestion was floated that Liverpool and Manchester should join forces.

Perhaps a bridge too far...:roll:

 

[fowler9]

It was only last week when a suggestion was floated that Liverpool and Manchester should join forces.

Perhaps a bridge too far...:roll:

Ha ha. Perhaps indeed a bridge too far but personally speaking it wouldn't bother me. Manchester is a fantastic city with brilliant infrastructure and loads to see and do, it is of course a major business hub as well. I have always been one to lean towards expanding business in the North, Manchester for example, and scrapping HS2 and any new airport expansions in the south east.

I still hate Manchester though. Ha ha. (I don't really)

 

[radamfi]

How do other European countries define their 'second city'? What is Germany's second city? Is it Hamburg? Munich?

The biggest urban area in Germany, by a big margin, is the Ruhr area with over 7 million people in it, which includes the settlements of Dortmund, Essen and Duisburg. It doesn't have the recognition of Berlin or Munich because it is a polycentric conurbation. Also, the Cologne-Bonn conurbation of over 2 million is not far away so the two areas combined have a population higher than Greater London.

 

[Greenback]

The biggest urban area in Germany, by a big margin, is the Ruhr area with over 7 million people in it, which includes the settlements of Dortmund, Essen and Duisburg. It doesn't have the recognition of Berlin or Munich because it is a polycentric conurbation. Also, the Cologne-Bonn conurbation of over 2 million is not far away so the two areas combined have a population higher than Greater London.

I was thinking of putting Cologne-Bonn in, but wasn't sure of the correct name for the region!

I think this highlights the need for conurbations rather than individual cities. I don't know that having a 'second city' as such is going to help the UK. We need stronger cities and conurbations working together rather than in competiton with each other.

 

[radamfi]

Germany is far more decentralised than the UK and the individual regions (states) have considerable autonomy. The capital is Berlin, the major financial centre is Frankfurt but Munich is probably the most prosperous major city, with many companies based there.

 

[Greenback]

Germany is far more decentralised than the UK and the individual regions (states) have considerable autonomy. The capital is Berlin, the major financial centre is Frankfurt but Munich is probably the most prosperous major city, with many companies based there.

Yes, I think that the UK is far too centralised, with everything focused on the capital.

I believe that this is the focus of the two part TV programme Evan Davis has written, though I haven't seen it. Although he syas the other cities are too small, rather than London being too big, to me whichever way you look at it it amounts to the same thing.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Munich is probably the most expensive German city, but it's a fight between Stuttgart, Dusseldorf and Munich as to which is the richest

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Considering the headlines in the very first posting, the good burghers of Hebden Bridge will be pleased to see their settlement ranking with the German ones of Munich, Stuttgart and Dusseldorf in the submitted postings to date...

 

[D6975]

My own view is that we are slowly moving towards larger urban conglomerations - this is mooted for Cardiff/Newport, and has already happend in some respects with Swansea Bay replacing Swansea, Neath and Port Talbot. Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield are an obvious contender for this to happen.

Perhaps we are moving too slowly, perhaps it's not as good an idea as it seems. It's probably an interesting discussion, quite seperate from the railway angle.

Also Manchester/Oldham/Salford/Stockport
There's no obvious 'gaps' when you travel around this area.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield are an obvious contender for this to happen....

Remember "West Yorkshire Metropolitan County"? These three were meant to come under one authority for planning, but it failed because of petty bickering, and because Leeds was siphoning off most of the funds. Perhaps we have small cities because greater co=operation is not in our nature.

 

[Greenback]

Also Manchester/Oldham/Salford/Stockport
There's no obvious 'gaps' when you travel around this area.

In my head, at least, that has already happened - Greater Greater Manchester!

Remember "West Yorkshire Metropolitan County"? These three were meant to come under one authority for planning, but it failed because of petty bickering, and because Leeds was siphoning off most of the funds. Perhaps we have small cities because greater co=operation is not in our nature.

I don't remember it with any great detail, but it seems a fine example of why I said that we need the individual towns and cities within a conurbation working together rather than against each other.

We do seem to have a mindset these days that competition is always going to be better than co-operation. Maybe that needs to change?

 

[fowler9]

In my head, at least, that has already happened - Greater Greater Manchester!



I don't remember it with any great detail, but it seems a fine example of why I said that we need the individual towns and cities within a conurbation working together rather than against each other.

We do seem to have a mindset these days that competition is always going to be better than co-operation. Maybe that needs to change?

I totally agree. I think Manchester is an amazing business hub, I personally think that Liverpool is nicer to look at. Stick the two together.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

This very interesting programme on BBC2 last night with Evan Davies provided economic arguments which may be of interest to readers of RailUKforums:

And maybe therein lies some kind of answer to the critical mass of London. It's not a second city called Hebden Bridge, but a super-city that tries to turn the great cities of the north into one large travel-to-work area.

It would require a lot of physical infrastructure to improve links between the different centres.​

By "a lot of physical infrastructure" I think Evan Davies meant improved rail links. The programme included shots of Pacers around Hebden Bridge, without comment on their decrepitude, and from inside the disused bore of Standedge Tunnel, with the comment that even after planned upgrades it would "still be two tracks, not four".

I could not decide which thread to put this post in: "Todmorden curve", "Ordsall curve", "Manchester-Liverpool electrification" &c so started a new one.

 

[yorkie]

I could not decide which thread to put this post in: "Todmorden curve", "Ordsall curve", "Manchester-Liverpool electrification" &c so started a new one.

Or even An approach to the North?

 

[fowler9]

I'd happily make Hebden Bridge the UK's second city. Lovely place. That said I'd be happy with Liverpool, Leeds, York, Manchester or any number of places. Maybe even Warrington despite a lot of time and history. Ha ha.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd happily make Hebden Bridge the UK's second city. Lovely place. That said I'd be happy with Liverpool, Leeds, York, Manchester or any number of places. Maybe even Warrington despite a lot of time and history. Ha ha.

I'll only agree to allowing Hebden Bridge to be the UK's second city, if its new international airport and its new international financial centre are located in Heptonstall and the Towngate Tearoom accorded with the maximum number of stars in the Michelin Guide....