An interesting Delay Repay Claim - two legs of journey delayed. What should be correct outcome ?

[General Zod]

Ticket in possession was a High Wycome - Hasting Off Peak Day Return ( via HS1) with a Network Card discount applied. The price of the ticket was £35.

Sat 10th June returning from Hasting I intended to go from Hastings to Ashford International (Southern) followed by Ashford Int to St Pancras on the high speed line (Southeastern), then by LUL to Marylebone to catch the Chiltern to High Wycombe.

The 19.25 ( Eastbourne to Ashford Int ) Southern service into Hastings was 18 mins late - actual dep from Hasting 1943 ) and arrived into Aashford International 2033 which was 23 mins late. As luck would have it the overhead wires were down on the HS1 line so all the high speed trains into St Pancras from the coast had come to a standstill. We were sat in HS train to STP for over half an hour and were advised to catch the next slow service into either victoria or charing cross. There was no room on the first train out ( sunny day and seaside revellers ) so I caught the 2132 into Charing cross which arrived at its destination approx 2245. Got over to Marylebone in time to catch 2307 MYB-OXF and reached High Wycombe 2340. Journey Planners state that the 19.25 Hastings via Ashford, St Pancras and MYB should reach HWY 22.27 , hence a delay of 73 mins to my journey. The problem is from whom should I claim the delay repay ? Southern may be reluctant to settle as their train from Hastings was only 23 mins late into Ashford and the majority of the delay was caused by Southeastern. If the Southern train had been on time I would have still been delayed at Ashford because of OHL issues on HS1. Common sense and logic dicate that I should clain from Southeastern . Interesting.

 

[Kilopylae]

I would claim from Southern on a strict interpretation of the rule that the first TOC to delay you is liable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would claim from Southern on a strict interpretation of the rule that the first TOC to delay you is liable.

It's not the first TOC to delay you, it's the first TOC to delay you with a material impact on the journey.

Did the first delay cause a missed connection? If it didn't, i.e. you caught your intended train which was then delayed, then it's Southeastern. If it did, i.e. you caught a later Southeastern train, it's Southern to pay out.

Bet they argue about it though!

FWIW I did once have one where a 10 minute delay on Virgin caused me to miss a connection onto the Furness Line at Preston which would normally mean an hour's payout, but then the following train was cancelled which meant a 2+ hour delay overall, and Virgin did pay that out without argument.

For a simpler example of "material impact", consider these.

Journey is A-B-C:

Train A-B is 10 minutes late, but I have a 15 minute connection at B so make the connection. Train B-C is 1 hour late. The claim goes to the B-C TOC, because while the A-B train was late it had no impact on the final arrival time.

Train A-B is 20 minutes late, so I miss the connection. The following B-C train is two hours late. The claim goes to the A-B TOC, because were it not for the delay to the first train I'd never have been on the second.

 

[General Zod]

As I stated in my original post if the Hastings - Ashford Int train had run to time ie arriving at 2010 my connection to STP ,which was due to depart at 2016, was still delayed until 2143. Hence the Southern delay had no impact on my journey. I think i will try to claim from Southeastern.

 

[Haywain]

As I stated in my original post if the Hastings - Ashford Int train had run to time ie arriving at 2010 my connection to STP ,which was due to depart at 2016, was still delayed until 2143. Hence the Southern delay had no impact on my journey. I think i will try to claim from Southeastern.

Theclaim is with Southern. Any additional delays after your arrival at Ashford are just Southern's bad luck.

 

[General Zod]

Theclaim is with Southern. Any additional delays after your arrival at Ashford are just Southern's bad luck.

The Southern train was only 23 mins late and wasn't responsible for the extent of the delay. I'm sure they won't be best pleased

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theclaim is with Southern. Any additional delays after your arrival at Ashford are just Southern's bad luck.

I'm not sure I agree, as Southern's delay did not have a material impact on the journey.

 

[Haywain]

The Southern train was only 23 mins late and wasn't responsible for the extent of the delay. I'm sure they won't be best pleased

Bad luck for Southern.

I'm not sure I agree, as Southern's delay did not have a material impact on the journey.

The arrival at Ashford would have missed the connection if it had been on time.

 

[General Zod]

Just a quick update. Yesterday I applied to Southeastern for the delay repay . Received an email this morning stating that I will get 100% refund for the cost of the return leg of my journey. Super quick resolution on SE's behalf. Well done the said TOC.

 

[yorkie]

Can you please post your full intended itinerary (this would be on your booking confirmation email, or in your account, if booked online)

And underneath this, can you post your actual itinerary?

Having a detailed text description of what happened can be useful to know (though I would ask it be separated into shorter paragraphs please ), but it should be in addition to providing the booked vs actual itinerary.

If you are on a train which is only delayed by a small amount, but this is sufficient for a valid onward connection to be missed, and if the original train had been on time, and this missed connection resulted in a series of events which meant you were very delayed, then it does not matter how delayed any subsequent trains are; it is the original operator whose train was delayed, who you claim from.

 

[General Zod]

I bought the ticket at the station booking office .

Intended return itinerary ( as shown on Trainline ) :

Southern trains : dep. Hasings 1925 arr Ashford International 2010
Southeastern trains : dep Ashford International 2016 arr St Pancras International 2054
London Underground across to Marylebone
Chiltern : dep London Marylebone 2202 arr High Wycombe 2227

Actual jpourney

Southern Trains : dep Hasings 1943 ( 18 mins late ) arr Ashford International 2033 (23mins late)
Southeastern trains : dep Ashford International 2132 arr London Charing Cross 2246 ( told to take alternative slower route into London Charing Cross as HS1 line blocked)
LUL to Marylebone
Chiltern Railways : dep London Marylebone 2307 arr High Wycombe 2340

My Southern train to Ashford from Hastings was delayed but even if it had been on time I would have still been stuck at Ashford as my connecting Southeastern ( 2016 to STP ) was also delayed.

 

[Watershed]

Ok, so Southern (GTR) are liable here, as their train arrived at Ashford after your connection was due to leave.

The fact that you were then further delayed as a result of problems on HS1 is irrelevant, as you would have been delayed even if there had been no such problems. Therefore GTR are the company that first caused your journey to become delayed.

Anyway, let us know how your claim with GTR proceeds.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Ok, so Southern (GTR) are liable here, as their train arrived at Ashford after your connection was due to leave.

The fact that you were then further delayed as a result of problems on HS1 is irrelevant, as you would have been delayed even if there had been no such problems. Therefore GTR are the company that first caused your journey to become delayed.

Anyway, let us know how your claim with GTR proceeds.

OP’s claim with Southeastern rather than GTR has already been accepted, so that’d be almost the end of the matter anyway, under the likely assumption that an already accepted compensation claim will actually be paid.

As for who should’ve been liable for Delay Repay, it‘s difficult to get your head around in cases like this but I defer to your greater expertise!

 

[zero]

I have a case which sounds very similar to this so I wanted to see if the forum agrees:

Planned journey -
1023-1107 Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton Central (GWR)
1115-1351 Southampton Central to Birmingham New St (Crosscountry)

Actual journey -
1023 from Portsmouth arrived Southampton at 1114.
Thus would have missed connection to XC service at 1115, but this train was cancelled.
Next XC service was scheduled to depart Southampton at 1215, and actually arrived Birmingham at 1456 = 65 minutes behind schedule.

Comparing with the case in the OP, the claim should go to GWR, as if the 1115 XC had run, it would have been missed.


However what if the 1115 XC train was late, allowing the connection to be made, but then the XC train suffered further delays resulting in an overall 30+ minute late arrival? Should the claim then go to XC?

 

[Haywain]

Ok, so Southern (GTR) are liable here, as their train arrived at Ashford after your connection was due to leave.

As stated in post #5.

 

[yorkie]

I have a case which sounds very similar to this so I wanted to see if the forum agrees:

Planned journey -
1023-1107 Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton Central (GWR)
1115-1351 Southampton Central to Birmingham New St (Crosscountry)

Actual journey -
1023 from Portsmouth arrived Southampton at 1114.
Thus would have missed connection to XC service at 1115, but this train was cancelled.

I would claim from GWR; a passenger wouldn't necessarily even know that the XC was cancelled. This is, however, contentious but I look at it from a pragmatic viewpoint.

However what if the 1115 XC train was late, allowing the connection to be made, but then the XC train suffered further delays resulting in an overall 30+ minute late arrival? Should the claim then go to XC?

If you made the connection (let's say the XC departed 3 minutes late at 1118 but lost 30 minutes en-route) and GWR's delay didn't cause a discernable delay, then in that case I would say the claim then goes to XC. I am absolutely certain XC would not contest such a claim and this would be clear-cut.

 

[Watershed]

I have a case which sounds very similar to this so I wanted to see if the forum agrees:

Planned journey -
1023-1107 Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton Central (GWR)
1115-1351 Southampton Central to Birmingham New St (Crosscountry)

Actual journey -
1023 from Portsmouth arrived Southampton at 1114.
Thus would have missed connection to XC service at 1115, but this train was cancelled.
Next XC service was scheduled to depart Southampton at 1215, and actually arrived Birmingham at 1456 = 65 minutes behind schedule.

Comparing with the case in the OP, the claim should go to GWR, as if the 1115 XC had run, it would have been missed.


However what if the 1115 XC train was late, allowing the connection to be made, but then the XC train suffered further delays resulting in an overall 30+ minute late arrival? Should the claim then go to XC?

In the former case, you are correct that the claim lies with GWR.

In the latter case, this is where the rules really break down, but I would have said the claim lies with XC as GWR's delay did not cause the overall journey to become delayed.

People don't have to worry too much, as even if they submit their claim to the 'wrong' TOC, the NRCoT require the claim to be forwarded to the correct TOC.