An Olympic effort to clean up tracksides for 2012?

[lookingforit35]

Regardless of whether we feel the olympics to be a benefit or not, it does seem certain that many more tourists will be in London and the surrounding area in 2012. And it is also pretty certain that most of them will use public transport at some time on their stay.

Perhaps this is something we should consider doing at other times anyway, but does anyone think that a thorough clean up of the track side "tagging" might be a good use of effort in the run up? Other threads have covered how antisocial this type of graffitti is considered to be, and it sure doesnt present the capital in a good light.

Clearly there's limits to what can be acheived. But maybe say a set distance from each mainline station could be a reasonable expectation for the guys with the dull brown paint to cover on a regular basis in the weeks running up to the event? And if so, what kind of distance would be likely - I'd be conservative and say two to three miles.

Maybe I'm being naive. Maybe visitors should simply just see London in the way Londoners and regular visitors have to just now. But we are told it's a time for national pride.

No comments on the olympics itself please. Just views on whether forum users think this is a good idea or not, and how it might work............

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'd wager that any cleaned up walls would be re tagged within hours of being cleaned!

 

[W-on-Sea]

Well, I'm not sure that Network Rail did anything similar - but back when (2003-2005 or so) London was competing to be chosen to stage the Olympics, TfL purposely did their best to remove track-side graffiti throughout the tube network, so as to impress visiting judges - mostly painting it over (professionally, smartly, and coherently - rather than the rather lazy approach favoured on the national network nowadays, where the location of graffiti that has been painted over remains obvious) in a deep "Metropolitan line" purple colour. And it did make a *big* difference. (Particularly impressive was hte major clean-up given to, for example, the disused stations on the Met Line between Finchley Road and Baker Street, which were favoured tagging zones) It's only relatively recently that it's become clear it's time for another all-out attack on the tagging that has built up since. In fact, I'm sure that nothing similar was done on the national network - the difference was quite clear on those stretches where a tube and a NR line run side-by-side (such as the District between Bow and Upminster; or the Met from Finchley Road to Harrow), where only the side that TfL was responsible for got this treatment. But they did a good job none the less.

So, do I think your suggestion is a good idea? In principle, yes. Although I suppose there is less money floating around now than was the case back in the early 2000s; and to be honest compared with many European cities, London is really not that graffiti-ridden. (And its public transport system neither). So a fine idea, but possibly a prohibitively expensive one in the present context.

 

[es373]

Tourists wont be coming here to admire track-side walls. Even if they were and the councils did make an effort to clean up the graffiti, you'll be damn sure it shall re-appear the next morning.
There's no point what so ever in repeatedly cleaning graffiti. These places should be watched like a hawk and when the "artist" is caught in the act - they should be charged for the damage caused/man-hours wasted cleaning it!

 

[AndrewNewens]

There is evidence I believe that when graffiti is cleared away quickly, it is far less likely that it will re-appear. However, you need to keep at it and given the scale of the problem it would be expensive. That said, this approach is working on the underground.

However the very poor approach of NR when it comes to clearing trackside clutter and messy vegetation is not encouraging. Restrictions on what TOC's can and cannot do to tidy up also don't help. Keeping the place looking neat and tidy does not seem to be on NR's radar.

We need a cheap and easy to use system that ticks health and safety requirements. A colour paint mixing unit (so the most appropriate shade could be applied) with extendable spray paint attachment on the back of a multi-purpose or road/rail vehicle would be brilliant, but I fear we shall never see the day.....

 

[ACE1888]

Olympics or no, Network Rail should more effort in keeping all ares tidy anyway, don't start me on weeds 'in the 4 foot'....

 

[pemma]

When it was the Commonwealth games in Manchester a lot of the graffiti on lines leading to Manchester was painted over with a dark red paint and Piccadilly station was redeveloped in time for the games.

However, Manchester didn't get the investment in extra services, longer trains and new stations that London is getting.

Anyone arriving in London by Eurostar from Paris will have seen the huge amount of graffiti on the line north of Paris so seeing some near London probably won't give them a bad impression of London.

 

[jon0844]

If you keep removing it, people will eventually stop as there's simply no point if nobody will see it (including yourself and your peers later on). Our trains sometimes get hit, either inside or outside, and it's removed quickly. By and large, our trains are very clean.

Now, take the other approach and look at the trains on SET when they were left alone a number of years ago, with graffiti inside and out, etched windows and - to be honest - made my wife feel so uncomfortable she clearly said she'd never travel on that line again.

An alternative idea, which will never happen, would be to allow artists to decorate the walls legally, with permission to be there (obviously to coincide with engineering work or a possession). Allow people to express themselves, as long as it isn't offensive. Yes, some of the people you allow there may have been tagging the network before, but you now have a chance to engage with these people too. Given the pathetic punishments, you may just have able to impose an amnesty, and try and stop them from 'going off the rails' too.

I think there's also evidence that shows that once an area appears to be run down, which graffiti usually contributes heavily too, even 'normal' people give up and make no attempt to keep the place clean.

The idea of simply waiting to catch people is fine. It's the most logical idea, but the reality is that BTP have little time or resources, it's hard to prove previous incidents ('wasn't me - that was a copycat') and punishments are usually pathetic. So, nice idea as that is - it's probably the worst idea in practice.

 

[lookingforit35]

There is sometimes a concerted effort over a few days to clear one stretch between London Bridge and New Cross which is actually quite effective.

However, it does need someone "on call" to monitor it over the course of a couple of weeks to put right any subsequent random tagging as it seems that once one tag is mindlessly repeated, more appear in the course of a few nights. So in practice, I'd say it is do-able and not expensive if kept to specific streches of track. But it does need some commitment which I guess might be harder to obtain.

Olympic wise, I agree that our tracksides are probably better than Paris. But many English speaking visitors to London might be shall we say a tad offended by the rich language on display, most often the invitation to the BTP to "F#### OFF".

 

[Eng274]

An alternative idea, which will never happen, would be to allow artists to decorate the walls legally, with permission to be there (obviously to coincide with engineering work or a possession). Allow people to express themselves, as long as it isn't offensive. Yes, some of the people you allow there may have been tagging the network before, but you now have a chance to engage with these people too. Given the pathetic punishments, you may just have able to impose an amnesty, and try and stop them from 'going off the rails' too.

No no no! Making this disgusting 'art' socially acceptable in certain areas for these little barstewards won't help at all. Having a chance to "engage with these people" suggests finding out what motivates them to do it - cue the terrible stories how "mum didn't care, dad wasn't there" nonsense; come on! It's a bit of a stretch linking domestic problems with the need to spray graffiti everywhere, there are other outlets to vent their frustration, like a simple game of football. Which doesn't cost a small fortune in man-hours and resources to clean up afterwards.

The only way I would make this legal 'decoration' idea workable is on an old industrial site. Let the turds get on with their tagging, and 'art', and after their work is done, get them off the said site and (unknown to them from the beginning) fire the demolition detonators, bringing the whole lot to the ground. Then dish out a stern lecture that makes them realise the futility of NR and local authorities' efforts to keep the railways/public areas free of their tagging, and having photographed each artist's style prior to this, warn them that if any evidence of their work is found, they will be tasked with community service equivalent to the man-hour value of the clean-up that it will take to remove their artwork, and dole/JSA suspended for that time as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought the London Olympics Committe was warning only a couple of weeks ago to expect a massive decline in tourists during the Olympics?

 

[W-on-Sea]

Strangely I reckon the worst place I've seen for graffiti around railway lines is (of all places) Florence (the suburbs particularly); and as for graffiti on trains on underground systems, Rome really has to be seen to be believed as to how bad it is (I've not been for a few years, and I know they have some new trains now, which I hope, against all reason, they've taken more care of than the old ones).

And Italy can be really bad for on-street graffiti, too, even on historic buildings. I suppose London has Shoreditch, with its "official street art", but the approximately equivalent trendy ex-industrial inner-city area of Milan just seems so much scruffier in comparison - graffiti scribbles everywhere.

Does anyone (from a tourist POV) think any less of Florence or Rome because of that? (or for Milan from a business/investment perspective)? Possibly not that much. I certainly prefer what has become the standard British approach (both on and away from the railway network) - to get rid of graffiti - and think that doing so does contribute to the feeling of a safer environment (the point about the disgraceful state of Southeastern trains a few years ago is a good one) - but perhaps this reflects something about peculiarly or specifically British expectations, just as, e.g., our preference for cushioned seats on underground trains and brightly, well-maintained tube stations, is not typical of international experience or practice!

 

[Greenback]

I thought the London Olympics Committe was warning only a couple of weeks ago to expect a massive decline in tourists during the Olympics?

There will probably be a reduction in 'normal' tourism, but I expect that will be offset by the numbers of people visitng London, either from the UK or overseas, to be part of the Olympic experience.

I must admit, I would not even think about visitng a coutnry where there was a massive international event taking place unless I wanted to attend that event. If not, then I would make sur emy visit did not coincide, so ther emay even be a rise in tourist numbers each side of the Olympics period.
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Does anyone (from a tourist POV) think any less of Florence or Rome because of that? (or for Milan from a business/investment perspective)? Possibly not that much. I certainly prefer what has become the standard British approach (both on and away from the railway network) - to get rid of graffiti - and think that doing so does contribute to the feeling of a safer environment (the point about the disgraceful state of Southeastern trains a few years ago is a good one) - but perhaps this reflects something about peculiarly or specifically British expectations, just as, e.g., our preference for cushioned seats on underground trains and brightly, well-maintained tube stations, is not typical of international experience or practice!

Back on topic, and I think it's fair to say that what can be seen from the railway tracks in most major cities in quite depressing. The cities of Rome and Florence are not as grim as may be inferred by a visiting Martian from the state of the trackside environment!

I don;t think there's a need to clean up especially for the Olympics, particularly if it just reverts back afterwards. But a general tidy up and more effort in keeping linesides tidy would not go amiss.

 

[jon0844]

No no no! Making this disgusting 'art' socially acceptable in certain areas for these little barstewards won't help at all.

I am not talking about tagging, which is awful, ugly and uninventive. But there is some graffiti that is actually quite nice to look at - and on the way into King's Cross there's some welcoming artwork that is what I'm talking about.

Allocate areas that each 'artist' is responsible for. It's unlikely that someone will come along and tag over it. I am sure that there's some respect for other 'artists' in that world. In fact, it could become self-policing as the person that ruins some artwork for the sake of a name/phrase is going to be vilified on the websites/forums that support graffiti in the name of art.

I get the whole idea about finding, catching, jailing or getting them to pay back the damages idea - but it doesn't work does it? It never will as who is going to put in the resources?

I certainly prefer what has become the standard British approach (both on and away from the railway network) - to get rid of graffiti - and think that doing so does contribute to the feeling of a safer environment (the point about the disgraceful state of Southeastern trains a few years ago is a good one) - but perhaps this reflects something about peculiarly or specifically British expectations, just as, e.g., our preference for cushioned seats on underground trains and brightly, well-maintained tube stations, is not typical of international experience or practice!

The Silverlink 313s on the North London Line/Link were terrible too. Now they've got shiny new 378s and, okay so they've got anti-etch film and anti-graffiti paint, but the fact is they're being looked after. I presume the local scrotes who saw the run down state of the trains and thought it was a green light to show no care at all actually have some sort of desire to keep them clean. Maybe they actually have a sense of pride.

I think keeping things clean definitely makes other people make more of an effort to keep it so.

 

[swt_passenger]

Unless it has changed in the last couple of months, Stratford station still looks a mess at track/ballast level.

As probably the primary rail station for the Olympic site maybe they should start there, by having a go at the weeds...