Anglia TSR3 Cambridge - Ipswich improvements

[gingerheid]

Perhaps the Greater Anglia intended improvement that got the least attention paid to it, but the one that would have benefited me most!

Under the (now former) Anglia Franchise TSR3 requirements for Cambridge to Ipswich, Cambridge was due to get an earlier train to Ipswich. Do we know why this hasn't happened / if there is still an intention for to happen?

(Just woken up from the post drive-to-Ipswich-that-I-wouldn't-have-done-if-there'd-been-an-earlier-train nap...!)

 

[dk1]

Perhaps the Greater Anglia intended improvement that got the least attention paid to it, but the one that would have benefited me most!

Under the (now former) Anglia Franchise TSR3 requirements for Cambridge to Ipswich, Cambridge was due to get an earlier train to Ipswich. Do we know why this hasn't happened / if there is still an intention for to happen?

(Just woken up from the post drive-to-Ipswich-that-I-wouldn't-have-done-if-there'd-been-an-earlier-train nap...!)

That would mean an 04:20 or something similar from Ipswich which I suppose would run in the path of 2W03 west of Bury. Haven’t heard anything about it.

 

[JonathanH]

That would mean an 04:20 or something similar from Ipswich which I suppose would run in the path of 2W03 west of Bury. Haven’t heard anything about it.

Is it out of the question for Ipswich traincrew to have an overnight turn or some other arrangement where the first train from Cambridge to Ipswich (and last train from Ipswich to Cambridge) could run from the Cambridge end?

 

[dk1]

Is it out of the question for Ipswich traincrew to have an overnight turn or some other arrangement where the first train from Cambridge to Ipswich (and last train from Ipswich to Cambridge) could run from the Cambridge end?

Only reason it happens with the Norwich overnight was an agreement dating back to the Central Trains split in 2007. It could happen or the Ipswich driver & guard a taxied out each morning & back each night. Either way it's not very cost effective.

 

[gingerheid]

That would mean an 04:20 or something similar from Ipswich which I suppose would run in the path of 2W03 west of Bury. Haven’t heard anything about it.

I really long for the day that statements like that aren't the automatic (but legitimate!) response to the problem of running a train from a major station and existing depot

 

[JonathanH]

I really long for the day that statements like that aren't the automatic (but legitimate!) response to the problem of running a train from a major station and existing depot

Even under a unified railway there are still limitations on which depots can run a particular service - eg no guard at Cambridge to run this train or driver knowledge of the route.

Even within Greater Anglia, wasn't there some concern about the Norwich to Stansted service having to have a Cambridge driver south of Cambridge to keep the unions happy.

 

[dk1]

I really long for the day that statements like that aren't the automatic (but legitimate!) response to the problem of running a train from a major station and existing depot

I don’t think that will ever change without some very balanced agreements and debate.

Even within Greater Anglia, wasn't there some concern about the Norwich to Stansted service having to have a Cambridge driver south of Cambridge to keep the unions happy.

Most definitely. Cambridge depot refused to allow Norwich drivers to work south there of. Ironically NXEA would have had Norwich drivers doing this pre 2012 with 170s if they’d have kept the franchise & all route learning plans where in place but the Cambridge to Stansted 317 shuttles where inaugurated in the meantime.

 

[Class 170101]

That would mean an 04:20 or something similar from Ipswich which I suppose would run in the path of 2W03 west of Bury. Haven’t heard anything about it.

If it was resourced from the Cambridge end the 04:20 wouldn't be needed. Perhaps extend the 22:15 Ipswich to Bury onwards to Cambridge.

Guards and drivers would probably be overnight unfortunately and this would make such a service prohitively expensive. If Cambridge signed both to Ipswich and Norwich and DOO applied I would say its more likely that such services could be possible.

 

[gingerheid]

If it's so unlikely and difficult I wonder how it made it into the franchise agreement! I wonder how they were planning to do it!

Interestingly, there wasn't a proposed increase in services from Ipswich to Cambridge between TSR2 and TSR3, just Cambridge to Ipswich. It also doesn't appear to have been related to any kind of strange interworking with the extra Peterborough services that never happened.

Now that I look, however, there was also supposed to be an additional extra early morning service from Cambridge to Norwich, also with no apparent matching extra early morning (or late evening!) arrival.

It's a shame. From where I live using the train is a fairly nuts choice, but I loath driving so much I often try to do it anyway. The earlier train would have been a reason not to drive when I need to go early. Instead the only change is newly broken connections for the later morning Cambridge North - Ely - Ipswich journey that are another reason not to use the train

 

[47421]

If it's so unlikely and difficult I wonder how it made it into the franchise agreement! I wonder how they were planning to do it!

The Franchise Agreement was a work of fiction in many respects. It is indeed odd that Abellio risked so much Dutch taxpayers money and DfT agreed to many commitments, effectively on behalf of passengers, that turned out to be, and probably always were, undeliverable.

Just on the timetabling initiatives:

TSR2 May 19 extra TPH off peak to Hert East and Southend Vic, extension of the Liv St Ipswich to Norwich and Norwich Camb extended to Stansted Apt all day. Most of this will not be delivered. Norwich Camb did get extended to Stansted other than at peak times.

TSR3 May 20 full recast including the below. This is almost all now not going to happen. It is notable that the non delivery of speeded up Norwich to Liv St services means the 10 GEML 12 car Stadlers are not enough to resource the service, as clearly they were planning for them to cycle every 2 hours based on 1hr45 journeys. And non delivery of the half hourly service to Yarmouth, hourly Ipswich Peterborough and the Lowestoft to London through services means there are too many bimodes, which will presumably sit around Norwich accruing leasing charges for the British taxpayer to fund until someone can think of something to do with them.

And re West Anglia, the recast needs to coincide with East Coast recast because of the conflict at Cambridge, so who knows when that will be.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps the Greater Anglia intended improvement that got the least attention paid to it, but the one that would have benefited me most!

Under the (now former) Anglia Franchise TSR3 requirements for Cambridge to Ipswich, Cambridge was due to get an earlier train to Ipswich. Do we know why this hasn't happened / if there is still an intention for to happen?

(Just woken up from the post drive-to-Ipswich-that-I-wouldn't-have-done-if-there'd-been-an-earlier-train nap...!)

Anglia TSR3 was part of the Greater Anglia Franchise Agreement which was terminated on 19th September this year and replaced by a new National Rail Contract, with the old TSR uplifts dying with the old franchise.

 

[gingerheid]

Anglia TSR3 was part of the Greater Anglia Franchise Agreement which was terminated on 19th September this year and replaced by a new National Rail Contract, with the old TSR uplifts dying with the old franchise.

Mentioned in the thing you quoted!

Though the way things were going even before Covid I doubt the cancellation made much difference to the final outcome!

 

[doris]

The Franchise Agreement was a work of fiction in many respects. It is indeed odd that Abellio risked so much Dutch taxpayers money and DfT agreed to many commitments, effectively on behalf of passengers, that turned out to be, and probably always were, undeliverable.

Just on the timetabling initiatives:

TSR2 May 19 extra TPH off peak to Hert East and Southend Vic, extension of the Liv St Ipswich to Norwich and Norwich Camb extended to Stansted Apt all day. Most of this will not be delivered. Norwich Camb did get extended to Stansted other than at peak times.

TSR3 May 20 full recast including the below. This is almost all now not going to happen. It is notable that the non delivery of speeded up Norwich to Liv St services means the 10 GEML 12 car Stadlers are not enough to resource the service, as clearly they were planning for them to cycle every 2 hours based on 1hr45 journeys. And non delivery of the half hourly service to Yarmouth, hourly Ipswich Peterborough and the Lowestoft to London through services means there are too many bimodes, which will presumably sit around Norwich accruing leasing charges for the British taxpayer to fund until someone can think of something to do with them.

And re West Anglia, the recast needs to coincide with East Coast recast because of the conflict at Cambridge, so who knows when that will be.

View attachment 106088

What’s the blocker in respect of 1hr 45m LST-NRW? assumed this would be achieved through shorter stopping times and better acceleration etc. No other infrastructure changes needed.

 

[dk1]

What’s the blocker in respect of 1hr 45m LST-NRW? assumed this would be achieved through shorter stopping times and better acceleration etc. No other infrastructure changes needed.

Awaiting the full fleet of new trains before the timetable can be recast.

Trains are timetabled to do it in as little as 1h44 now however & of course the Ni90 too.

 

[Bald Rick]

What’s the blocker in respect of 1hr 45m LST-NRW? assumed this would be achieved through shorter stopping times and better acceleration etc. No other infrastructure changes needed.

Needs a timetable recast.

 

[306024]

Needs a timetable recast.

Which is easier said than done without destroying a lot of connections in the current timetable, never mind maintaining freight capacity.

But as this thread is about Ipswich - Cambridge, the 15.46 Cambridge to Ipswich today was very busy. Fortunately a 4 car 755 was provided. The growth on this route since it became hourly is quite impressive.

 

[ABB125]

The growth on this route since it became hourly is quite impressive.

When did it become hourly? I used it in 2018, but can't remember the frequency at the time.

 

[TheBigD]

Mid to late 2000's from memory.

Went hourly (with one gap in the evening) when NX also introduced the 2 hourly Lowestoft/Peterborough to London via ipswich trains with the 3 car 170s. When they were then cut short at Ipswich a few years later the 3 car 170s were then put on the Norwich to Cambridge service and the 2 car 170s transferred to the Ipswich to Cambridge. A few years later saw another swap around and a large proportion of the Cambridge to Ipswich service being 3 cars 170s with the 2 car 170s on the Peterborough to Ipswich.

Given that at one point in the late 1990's there was a near 4 hour gap eastbound from Cambrdige between 0845 and 1230 the route has seen a fantastic turnaround.

 

[Class 170101]

TSR3 May 20 full recast including the below. This is almost all now not going to happen. It is notable that the non delivery of speeded up Norwich to Liv St services means the 10 GEML 12 car Stadlers are not enough to resource the service, as clearly they were planning for them to cycle every 2 hours based on 1hr45 journeys.

Some journeys between Norwich and London have become faster since May 2021 but not by enough to meet what you describe.

 

[dk1]

Some journeys between Norwich and London have become faster since May 2021 but not by enough to meet what you describe.

Some have had a a few minutes removed from the schedule. 1P37 yesterday had extended dwell time at Colchester & that’s with a 50Mph TSR near Diss, severe signal checks at Stowmarket, Shenfield & Stratford & running 10mph below line speed south of Shenfield. Plenty more in the tank. (See pic below)

When did it become hourly? I used it in 2018, but can't remember the frequency at the time.

Yes as said it was around ten years ago. Sundays frequency however remained very poor with two hour gaps on this route along with Lowestoft to both Ipswich & Norwich (except Summer on the Wherry Line & an extra early evening train on the East Suffolk). Thankfully all East Anglian branch lines (except Ipswich-Peterborough) have now enjoyed at least an hourly daytime service 7 days a week since December 2019.

 

[mawallace]

As someone who lives in Thurston, there is also an issue with the trains in the evening. The last train from Ipswich is the 22.19; from Cambridge 23.45. Problem is if I go to London this means I have to leave at around 21.30 - (via Cambridge) which is not great if you are coming back from London attending an evening event. Even going out in Ipswich area means an early departure.

 

[dk1]

As someone who lives in Thurston, there is also an issue with the trains in the evening. The last train from Ipswich is the 22.19; from Cambridge 23.45. Problem is if I go to London this means I have to leave at around 21.30 - (via Cambridge) which is not great if you are coming back from London attending an evening event. Even going out in Ipswich area means an early departure.

To be honest that’s still half hour later than anyone gets living in Felixstowe, Lowestoft, Yarmouth or Cromer/Sheringham with the latter two only on Fridays.

Isn’t it 22:47 the last train Eastbound?

 

[Class 170101]

As someone who lives in Thurston, there is also an issue with the trains in the evening. The last train from Ipswich is the 22.19; from Cambridge 23.45. Problem is if I go to London this means I have to leave at around 21.30 - (via Cambridge) which is not great if you are coming back from London attending an evening event. Even going out in Ipswich area means an early departure.

To be honest that’s still half hour later than anyone gets living in Felixstowe, Lowestoft, Yarmouth or Cromer/Sheringham with the latter two only on Fridays.

Isn’t it 22:47 the last train Eastbound?

22:50 from Cambridge as I recall. To be honest a 23:00 departure from Cambridge shouldn't be too controversial but to improve westbound early starts and eastbound later finishes requires crewing from Cambridge

 

[dk1]

22:50 from Cambridge as I recall. To be honest a 23:00 departure from Cambridge shouldn't be too controversial but to improve westbound early starts and eastbound later finishes requires crewing from Cambridge

And that’s not likely to happen this century.

 

[TheEdge]

Which is easier said than done without destroying a lot of connections in the current timetable, never mind maintaining freight capacity.

Therein lies the complex issue that your local MPs, actions groups or Archant gutter press don't or refuse to understand.

Its all very well improving the headline times to Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich but if it shatters those 10m connections into the Cambridge and Lowestoft services at Ipswich or the local services at Norwich making those journeys 30 plus minutes longer then its a fundamentally bad idea.

 

[47421]

Needs a timetable recast.

Being a timetable recast other than the Dec 2021 timetable recast consulted on by GA, which promised only "Most [Norwich - London] journey times between 1 hour 45 minutes and 1 hour 50 minutes", and has never been published in full, one suspects because it is so underwhelming. I see the consultation info is still available on the GA website referring to Dec 2021, even though it is not happening then, and AFAIK has no firm schedule.

 

[306024]

Therein lies the complex issue that your local MPs, actions groups or Archant gutter press don't or refuse to understand.

Its all very well improving the headline times to Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich but if it shatters those 10m connections into the Cambridge and Lowestoft services at Ipswich or the local services at Norwich making those journeys 30 plus minutes longer then its a fundamentally bad idea.

Absolutely. Plus all the other connections at Manningtree, Colchester, Marks Tey, Witham, Thorpe-le-Soken and Wickford. The only connections currently that are not so good are Southend-Colchester connections at Shenfield but it is impossible to achieve everything.

Meanwhile speeding up Ipswich-Cambridge isn‘t easy with 755 timings, assuming the freight still works, as trains would then pass at Haughley Jn. Timetabling wise parallel moves over junctions is ideal, if only Haughley wasn’t a single lead junction

 

[Bald Rick]

Meanwhile speeding up Ipswich-Cambridge isn‘t easy with 755 timings, assuming the freight still works, as trains would then pass at Haughley Jn. Timetabling wise parallel moves over junctions is ideal, if only Haughley wasn’t a single lead junction

Stop it! You’ll give @ChiefPlanner hypertension!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Stop it! You’ll give @ChiefPlanner hypertension!

Time is a great healer ........(you cannot win them all)

 

[ABB125]

Meanwhile speeding up Ipswich-Cambridge isn‘t easy with 755 timings, assuming the freight still works, as trains would then pass at Haughley Jn. Timetabling wise parallel moves over junctions is ideal, if only Haughley wasn’t a single lead junction

Wasn't there a plan to double Haughley Jn?