Annual Gold Card - Where... to buy?

[MrJeeves]

That is a bookable option because the (adult) Gold Card holder can book a ticket for a child to accompany them when travelling on the route covered by their Gold Card, i.e. when they don't need to book a ticket for themselves. Normally it is not permitted for a a ticket with the CHAGC (child gold card) discount to be sold separately. Maybe you will get away with it though.

I didn't realise it was exclusively for travel within the area covered by the season ticket.

The terms themselves imply you can buy a ticket where your gold card doesn't cover the journey being made.

7) If the journey You are making is covered by Your Annual Season Ticket You do not need to buy yourself a ticket. However, if You are purchasing discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcards for accompanying adults or children and You intend to travel in a London Fare Zone not covered by Your Annual Season Ticket, You must also purchase a discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 for yourself

If the holder happens to be a child (and we ignore the fact they don't have a Gold Card even if the paper it's printed on says it's one), I don't see why they can't buy a Gold Card-discounted child ticket in the same way an adult would be able to with a journey outside their Gold Card.

 

[mikeyerm]

That is a bookable option because the (adult) Gold Card holder can book a ticket for a child to accompany them when travelling on the route covered by their Gold Card, i.e. when they don't need to book a ticket for themselves. Normally it is not permitted for a a ticket with the CHAGC (child gold card) discount to be sold separately. Maybe you will get away with it though.

Good to know. I mean, I shouldn't have any issues since technically the ticket price would be the same anyway if I was with the Holder as a Child.
I don't plan on using the LTC -> LTV route very often, only pretty much using/abusing the Gold Card discounts.

I don't see why they can't buy a Gold Card-discounted child ticket in the same way an adult would be able to with a journey outside their Gold Card.

That's the loophole I plan on using.
Everything seems to run in the direction that I "should" be able to do this. Worst case scenario, I get the "Gold Card" confiscated, and then I just buy an Adult one.

 

[talldave]

I didn't realise it was exclusively for travel within the area covered by the season ticket.

The terms themselves imply you can buy a ticket where your gold card doesn't cover the journey being made.

It isn't, it's just that the scenario of buying just an AGC discounted child ticket without buying an associated adult ticket only occurs when the adult's travel is fully covered by the season ticket already.

That's the loophole I plan on using.
Everything seems to run in the direction that I "should" be able to do this. Worst case scenario, I get the "Gold Card" confiscated, and then I just buy an Adult one.

If you've ever read the Disputes section, you'll perhaps consider that the worst case scenario could be a visit to court, which could be very interesting since you're playing in an undocumented area of "greyness"

BTW as a former AGC holder who never visited the stations named on the ticket but saved shedloads of cash, I fully support pushing the boundaries of validity - but don’t expect an easy ride. Staff who enjoy making up rules will have a field day where none exist!

 

[Wolfie]

It isn't, it's just that the scenario of buying just an AGC discounted child ticket without buying an associated adult ticket only occurs when the adult's travel is fully covered by the season ticket already.



If you've ever read the Disputes section, you'll perhaps consider that the worst case scenario could be a visit to court, which could be very interesting since you're playing in an undocumented area of "greyness"

BTW as a former AGC holder who never visited the stations named on the ticket but saved shedloads of cash, I fully support pushing the boundaries of validity - but don’t expect an easy ride. Staff who enjoy making up rules will have a field day where none exist!

Taking a minor to Court for something like this would look bloody awful for the TOC and likely attract serious media/political interest at a time when dubious prosecutions are already in the spotlight....

 

[MrJeeves]

Taking a minor to Court for something like this would look bloody awful for the TOC and likely attract serious media/political interest at a time when dubious prosecutions are already in the spotlight....

Like the worry of bad press has stopped TOCs from persuing inane prosecutions before...

Not too uncommon for them to follow through until the day/days leading up to the court date then suddenly call it off!

 

[Wolfie]

Like the worry of bad press has stopped TOCs from persuing inane prosecutions before...

Not too uncommon for them to follow through until the day/days leading up to the court date then suddenly call it off!

Not when the Secretary of State has already asked for independent consideration of prosecution practices they haven't....

I actually hope that a TOC is brain-dead enough to do something like that and it leads to changes in the bye laws and their right to prosecute being removed.

Play stupid games win stupid prizes!

 

[Paul Kelly]

I didn't realise it was exclusively for travel within the area covered by the season ticket.

I mean, a CHAGC-discounted ticket can be bought for anywhere in the Gold Card area - but the intention is that the child should always be accompanied by an adult Gold Card holder. Although as pointed out above, there may be some loopholes in the terms & conditions in this regard.

The reason why Trainline sites allow purchase of a Child Gold card-discounted fare without requiring an adult Gold Card-discounted fare to be purchased for the same journey at the same time, is only to allow for the case where the journey is fully covered by the adult's Gold Card - as talldave says above. I only know as I was involved in programming Trainline's fares engine at one time and was specifically asked to allow this for that reason.

 

[miklcct]

I mean, a CHAGC-discounted ticket can be bought for anywhere in the Gold Card area - but the intention is that the child should always be accompanied by an adult Gold Card holder. Although as pointed out above, there may be some loopholes in the terms & conditions in this regard.

The reason why Trainline sites allow purchase of a Child Gold card-discounted fare without requiring an adult Gold Card-discounted fare to be purchased for the same journey at the same time, is only to allow for the case where the journey is fully covered by the adult's Gold Card - as talldave says above. I only know as I was involved in programming Trainline's fares engine at one time and was specifically asked to allow this for that reason.

So how is it intended for a child Gold Card holder to buy a child discounted ticket to travel outside of the child annual season ticket coverage?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I thought it was clear from the discussion above, but the concept of a child Gold Card holder is not supposed to exist and therefore is not catered for anywhere.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I thought it was clear from the discussion above, but the concept of a child Gold Card holder is not supposed to exist and therefore is not catered for anywhere.

More broadly, Gold Cards shouldn't be issued where any discount has been applied (other than Passenger Charter discounts when they still existed.)

The full list being:

The following Annual Season tickets and Annual Travelcards must not be issued as Annual Gold Cards (or be issued with a Gold Record Card):

• Child-rate Season Tickets
• Privilege Rate Season Tickets (rail staff)
• Annual Season Tickets wholly for travel outside the Annual Gold Card area of validity
• Annual Season tickets issued outside the Annual Gold Card area of validity
• Easit scheme Season Tickets
• 16-17 Saver discounted Season Tickets
• n-Network, n-Train and cross boundary n-Train
• Bearer Passes – impersonal Season Tickets
• Tickets issued to holders of Transport for London 16+ Oyster photocards and 18+ Student Oyster photocards
• Local bus/rail seasons and Freedom Passes
• Season tickets for Dogs and ‘Accompanied Animals and Articles’

 

[mikeyerm]

Well, everything seems to be working.

TVMs don't accept AGC for child fares, obviously. I order it on Trainline, and then get a collection code and get the physical tickets from the machine.

Works perfectly.

 

[mikeyerm]

UPDATE - 12/02/2025

This is working entirely as intended. As stated previously, I'm using Trainline to produce tickets with AGC + Child (tl:dr: this is not fraud, I qualify for both), and then using ToD to get the physical tickets if I ever need them.

Got roughly another 9 months or so before my AGC runs out, and it is truly profiting by itself. Open return to Euston for <£8 and similar sorts of discounts.

Only thing is that Avanti, of course, doesn't support Gold Card discounts.

In my personal experience, most of the qualifying TOCs don't have first class (except crosscountry but I don't go past the exception range to qualify), so what's really the point of the £5 for first class ordeal?

How does that even work? Do you just go up to first class and bring a five pound note or something? I seriously wonder, since there's of course 0 documentation on that.

 

[Haywain]

This is working entirely as intended. As stated previously, I'm using Trainline to produce tickets with AGC + Child (tl:dr: this is not fraud, I qualify for both),

It nay not be fraud but, as stated above, you do not qualify for a Gold Card or Gold Card discount because they should not be issued to children.

 

[robbeech]

It nay not be fraud but, as stated above, you do qualify for a Gold Card or Gold Card discount because they should not be issued to children.

It has been issued to a child and it took 3 members of staff (2 of them in a supervisory role) to decide to issue it. IMO, regardless of whether it should have been issued or not, it has been and as such is valid.

If the railway has an issue with this then the first place to look is in its staff training procedures.

It’s incredibly tedious this increasingly common concept of blaming and penalising passengers for the railway being an utter disgrace.

(I’m not suggesting blaming is happening here in this thread, but the very idea that a passenger can obtain tickets through an accredited* retailer and somehow be in the wrong is enough to put people in the car).


* Goodness knows how, makes you wonder what really goes on.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I once had someone with a Priv rate season printed on a Gold Card. I think it was withdrawn by the ticket office team leader.

 

[mikeyerm]

It nay not be fraud but, as stated above, you do not qualify for a Gold Card or Gold Card discount because they should not be issued to children.

They issued it erroneously (which I wasn't aware was erroneous at the time). Not my problem that they weren't trained to read the iKB correctly.

The phrasing is quite interesting in the main KB where it states that it should be automatically issued on the Adult Annual Season Ticket, and doesn't mention Child at all. iKB of course states that Child-rate ones shouldn't be on gold cards, but I wouldn't have (and shouldn't have been expected to) know(n) that.

 

[infobleep]

More broadly, Gold Cards shouldn't be issued where any discount has been applied (other than Passenger Charter discounts when they still existed.)

The full list being:

I wasn't even aware of some of those season tickets you listed.

I am all for using tickets in lawful ways that might not be intended, but it states an annual gold card shouldn't be issued for child annual season tickets, so I wouldn't use it myself.

 

[Deerfold]

I once had someone with a Priv rate season printed on a Gold Card. I think it was withdrawn by the ticket office team leader.

I got one of those as a reprint of my season. I only ever used it as a season ticket, not trying to use it as a Gold Card.