Another landslip on the SWML (01/12/23)

[Amlag]

One assumes this footbdge as in Paul Clifton’s Twitter clip etc has possibly been hit during a NR Engineers Possession last night/ earlier today by a rail mounted vehicle carrying something foul of the Bdge supports or with its digger arm etc too high and the damage was deemed too severe to allow trains to continue to run.

Hopefully high priority emergency remedial works tonight could allow the lines to reopen on Monday ?

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Looks like it has partially re-opened, the down fast and up slow are no longer blocked off.

 

[deepeetw]

Hopefully high priority emergency remedial works tonight could allow the lines to reopen on Monday

Network Rail Wessex’s Twitter / X says that they are going to chop the whole bridge out overnight.

 

[gazr]

No trains southbound to Winchester or London bound pretty much. Another disastrous day on SWR. I notice this time round the company have said pretty quickly that taxis being sought by passengers will be refunded on proof of train ticket and receipt from the Taxis firm.

This happens when they know 100% it's not them that's going to foot the bill (usually when it's Network Rail fault, so billed to the Great British Taxpayer).

 

[30907]

Looks like it has partially re-opened, the down fast and up slow are no longer blocked off.

Seemingly diesel only ATM? Good thing the Bournemouths are diverted today

 

[Kite159]

Doesn't help that GWR are running a heavily reduced service from Paddington (2-3 tph) with the Reading call hidden from the departure screens and Reading - Basingstoke is only 1tph with (hardly any) XC services. That 3 coach 165 (I guess a blessing it's 3 coaches and not 2 like it sometimes is on a Sunday) was quite cosy.

 

[Deepgreen]

Quite bizarre that these two failures have happened in the same area. Could be a blessing in disguise, as the bridge removal can presumably be done while the two lines are OOU anyway. Replacement will be another matter.

One assumes this footbdge as in Paul Clifton’s Twitter clip etc has possibly been hit during a NR Engineers Possession last night/ earlier today by a rail mounted vehicle carrying something foul of the Bdge supports or with its digger arm etc too high and the damage was deemed too severe to allow trains to continue to run.

Hopefully high priority emergency remedial works tonight could allow the lines to reopen on Monday ?

Only an assumption but it's hard to see how else it could have ended up like this. NR is building a portfolio of demolishing footbridges with its own kit - Shalford being a previous one! Lessons will be, sorry, won't be learned!

 

[swt_passenger]

Quite bizarre that these two failures have happened in the same area. Could be a blessing in disguise, as the bridge removal can presumably be done while the two lines are OOU anyway. Replacement will be another matter.

Probably only one “failure” though, the other seems to be self inflicted damage. (Post #31) I doubt NR will admit that at this stage.

 

[Murray J]

But the track layout shown at Woking station is on a par with politicians understanding the COVID rules. It gives the impression that the only lines going between Woking and Basingstoke are those from platforms 1 & 2 at Woking and that there are a pair of fast lines between platforms 1 and 2. Also you can only go to and from Guildford from platforms 4 & 5.

No wonder SWR cannot run a train service when they publish rubbish like this, which is completely wrong the lines diverge west of Woking, not east of Woking.

It's just abstraction, why make it more complicated than it needs to be? How would that help the public?

 

[GrahamA]

Quite bizarre that these two failures have happened in the same area. Could be a blessing in disguise, as the bridge removal can presumably be done while the two lines are OOU anyway. Replacement will be another matter.


Only an assumption but it's hard to see how else it could have ended up like this. NR is building a portfolio of demolishing footbridges with its own kit - Shalford being a previous one! Lessons will be, sorry, won't be learned!

As someone who lives in the area and uses this footbridge regularly we'll be wondering how soon it'll be replaced. I will pop down tomorrow to see what it looks like.

From the pics I have seen on Twitter/X it does look like something has hit the bridge or the pier. But the pier is between the up and down fast lines and the down slow was the only line blocked by engineers' trains this morning.

 

[swt_passenger]

Only an assumption but it's hard to see how else it could have ended up like this. NR is building a portfolio of demolishing footbridges with its own kit - Shalford being a previous one! Lessons will be, sorry, won't be learned!

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out the recent ECML Plessey Viaduct problems were caused by a hit during a possession. I didn’t believe the parapet just suddenly fell off, whatever the press releases said…

 

[Lucan]

For reference re the slip, I attach a fairly recent image I took from this bridge.

GrahamA's photo above was obviously also taken from the bridge, a little to the left of where you are standing.

 

[Deepgreen]

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out the recent ECML Plessey Viaduct problems were caused by a hit during a possession. I didn’t believe the parapet just suddenly fell off, whatever the press releases said…

My thoughts too at the time. If true, it is a sad reflection on the control of engineering trains...again.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My thoughts too at the time. If true, it is a sad reflection on the control of engineering trains...again.

If an RRV hit the bridge the operator would have known all about it as would the machine controller that should have been with the machine and it should have been reported to ES. It clearly hasn't and as a result the railway has been reopened and left in a potentially very dangerous position if the bridge is now so weakened it needs to be completely removed. It doesn't look like it was about to collapse onto the tracks but could have become gauge fouled and a strike could have created a calamitous outcome.

Its also surprising it went undetected for so long given the number of trains that passed the site.

 

[800001]

Network Rail Wessex’s Twitter / X says that they are going to chop the whole bridge out overnight.

Ridge now getting scaffolding up tonight to shore it up, one line will be closed as a result.

Work to fix will be done on Wednesday when also the work for the landslip will be carried out.

 

[TEW]

If an RRV hit the bridge the operator would have known all about it as would the machine controller that should have been with the machine and it should have been reported to ES. It clearly hasn't and as a result the railway has been reopened and left in a potentially very dangerous position if the bridge is now so weakened it needs to be completely removed. It doesn't look like it was about to collapse onto the tracks but could have become gauge fouled and a strike could have created a calamitous outcome.

Its also surprising it went undetected for so long given the number of trains that passed the site.

From the photos it would seem a little odd that it had looked that bad and not been reported by a driver. The initial report actually came in from a member of public on the bridge who reported it was moving.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

From the photos it would seem a little odd that it had looked that bad and not been reported by a driver. The initial report actually came in from a member of public on the bridge who reported it was moving.

Mind you given the state of the infrastructure these days it probably doesn't look out of place!!

 

[Sultan]

Having lived within a mile of both bridges for 30+ years, here is a map of where the 2 separate incidents are. For this reason, I'll ask if the moderators can split the thread (if they feel it's necessary) as the landslip will take a few days / weeks to fix (?), whereas the bridge will take at least a year. It hasn't been removed yet (I'll go and photograph it soon) but I suspect it will need a new bridge to be installed in a similar method to one near Gomshall a couple of years ago as it is inaccessible from anywhere apart from the railway itself. Excuse my crude picture!

 

[theironroad]

Having lived within a mile of both bridges for 30+ years, here is a map of where the 2 separate incidents are. For this reason, I'll ask if the moderators can split the thread (if they feel it's necessary) as the landslip will take a few days / weeks to fix (?), whereas the bridge will take at least a year. It hasn't been removed yet (I'll go and photograph it soon) but I suspect it will need a new bridge to be installed in a similar method to one near Gomshall a couple of years ago as it is inaccessible from anywhere apart from the railway itself. Excuse my crude picture!

View attachment 147765

It's a very good map!

The bridge was reported yesterday by a member of public to Network Rail Helpline as "moving". MOM also saw the movement when they attended. All lines blocked until examined by bridge engineer.

As very fortunately it didn't collapse and cause damage/injury I don't imagine the RAIB will be involved, but I'd imagine some sort of investigation will be done by someone. While there is some distance between the two sites, I'd say ruling out earthworks etc as being connected to both incidents is premature. Maybe the whole stretch is subsiding/ experiencing movement.

Lucky it wasn't a school day, because as you will be aware, maybe even participate in it is a very popular bridge for children and parents to wave at trains from.

 

[Benjwri]

I'd say ruling out earthworks etc as being connected to both incidents is premature. Maybe the whole stretch is subsiding/ experiencing movement.

Wouldn't rule it out, but would be extremely surprised. From the images I've seen:
- The middle pier and the southern pier are showing signs of damage and significant displacement, but no displacement is visible beneath the rail line, and the bases of the piers appear to be in the correct position, this makes any subsiding/settlement of the foundations of the pier unlikely.
- the worst affected pier by some distance is the middle pier, the southern pier is less damaged, and from the photo I saw the northern pier is relatively intact. This makes this being caused by a landslide on either side of the bridge unlikely, to twist it in the way it has been at the middle support, for the northern pier to be intact the southern pier would have to continue the twist, and would have to have sustained far more visible damage.
- I would be very surprised if the bridge was anchored into the ground to the point the ground moved and took anchor with it, managing to rip two other supports from their footing. The bridge looks like its designed for the majoity of the load to be taken by the supports, I wouldn't even be surprised if it was only resting on the ground to either side so it could better resist internal lateral forces. Bridges like this would almost always remain standing, with the ground either side just crumbling away, especially as it can be seen from cab view videos there weren't even abutments.

I think the most telling photo however is this one (Source: Network Rail):

Bridges don't bend like that, I very much struggle to see any way a landslide has put that much lateral force on the bridge. The bend also appears to be over the down lines, which would obviously be far more consistent with a bridge strike.

 

[theironroad]

Wouldn't rule it out, but would be extremely surprised. From the images I've seen:
- The middle pier and the southern pier are showing signs of damage and significant displacement, but no displacement is visible beneath the rail line, and the bases of the piers appear to be in the correct position, this makes any subsiding/settlement of the foundations of the pier unlikely.
- the worst affected pier by some distance is the middle pier, the southern pier is less damaged, and from the photo I saw the northern pier is relatively intact. This makes this being caused by a landslide on either side of the bridge unlikely, to twist it in the way it has been at the middle support, for the northern pier to be intact the southern pier would have to continue the twist, and would have to have sustained far more visible damage.
- I would be very surprised if the bridge was anchored into the ground to the point the ground moved and took anchor with it, managing to rip two other supports from their footing. The bridge looks like its designed for the majoity of the load to be taken by the supports, I wouldn't even be surprised if it was only resting on the ground to either side so it could better resist internal lateral forces. Bridges like this would almost always remain standing, with the ground either side just crumbling away, especially as it can be seen from cab view videos there weren't even abutments.

I think the most telling photo however is this one (Source: Network Rail):
View attachment 147767
Bridges don't bend like that, I very much struggle to see any way a landslide has put that much lateral force on the bridge. The bend also appears to be over the down lines, which would obviously be far more consistent with a bridge strike.

Thanks for the detail. Will be interesting to see the outcome.

 

[Sultan]

A couple of photos from today. The bank, until a few years ago, was heavily wooded and I believe leaf-fall was a particular problem. The road bridge itself was closed as well some years ago to allow better drainage to take the water away along the southern embankment west of the road bridge (opposite way to photos where the landslip is), presumably to a culvert, under the railway to a stream on the northern side. I can't think otherwise where the water would go, as there is nowhere obvious on the southern side for it to go.

The road bridge has certainly seen some history, including some major works to install bollards to prevent road vehicles from ending up on the railway track, after the Selby rail disaster of 2001, when it was 1 of only a handful of bridges across the country identified as high-risk for a similar incident. Before then, it didn't even have traffic lights on a single-carriage bridge.

 

[theironroad]

Nice photos. thanks.

 

[Sultan]

You can see in the distance what the embankment looked like a few (5?) years ago before they cleared it. Similar trees.

 

[Deepgreen]

Wouldn't rule it out, but would be extremely surprised. From the images I've seen:
- The middle pier and the southern pier are showing signs of damage and significant displacement, but no displacement is visible beneath the rail line, and the bases of the piers appear to be in the correct position, this makes any subsiding/settlement of the foundations of the pier unlikely.
- the worst affected pier by some distance is the middle pier, the southern pier is less damaged, and from the photo I saw the northern pier is relatively intact. This makes this being caused by a landslide on either side of the bridge unlikely, to twist it in the way it has been at the middle support, for the northern pier to be intact the southern pier would have to continue the twist, and would have to have sustained far more visible damage.
- I would be very surprised if the bridge was anchored into the ground to the point the ground moved and took anchor with it, managing to rip two other supports from their footing. The bridge looks like its designed for the majoity of the load to be taken by the supports, I wouldn't even be surprised if it was only resting on the ground to either side so it could better resist internal lateral forces. Bridges like this would almost always remain standing, with the ground either side just crumbling away, especially as it can be seen from cab view videos there weren't even abutments.

I think the most telling photo however is this one (Source: Network Rail):
View attachment 147767
Bridges don't bend like that, I very much struggle to see any way a landslide has put that much lateral force on the bridge. The bend also appears to be over the down lines, which would obviously be far more consistent with a bridge strike.

Indeed, and the landslip is half a mile away.

It's a very good map!

The bridge was reported yesterday by a member of public to Network Rail Helpline as "moving". MOM also saw the movement when they attended. All lines blocked until examined by bridge engineer.

As very fortunately it didn't collapse and cause damage/injury I don't imagine the RAIB will be involved, but I'd imagine some sort of investigation will be done by someone. While there is some distance between the two sites, I'd say ruling out earthworks etc as being connected to both incidents is premature. Maybe the whole stretch is subsiding/ experiencing movement.

Lucky it wasn't a school day, because as you will be aware, maybe even participate in it is a very popular bridge for children and parents to wave at trains from.

I can easily see why/how the cutting slope half a mile up the line would slip, especially given the saturation it has experienced this autumn, but not the base of the railway's permanent way in the cutting - there is nothing there to slip or move as it's already at the lowest point.

 

[Ploughman]

Side pressure could easily distort the track.
Take a look at what happened at Hatfield Colliery a few years back, between Doncaster and Scunthorpe.

 

[Deepgreen]

Side pressure could easily distort the track.
Take a look at what happened at Hatfield Colliery a few years back, between Doncaster and Scunthorpe.

As far as I aware (and looking at the photos) the track isn't distorted, though.

 

[Meerkat]

A couple of photos from today. The bank, until a few years ago, was heavily wooded and I believe leaf-fall was a particular problem. The road bridge itself was closed as well some years ago to allow better drainage to take the water away along the southern embankment west of the road bridge (opposite way to photos where the landslip is), presumably to a culvert, under the railway to a stream on the northern side. I can't think otherwise where the water would go, as there is nowhere obvious on the southern side for it to go.

The road bridge has certainly seen some history, including some major works to install bollards to prevent road vehicles from ending up on the railway track, after the Selby rail disaster of 2001, when it was 1 of only a handful of bridges across the country identified as high-risk for a similar incident. Before then, it didn't even have traffic lights on a single-carriage bridge.

it’s a deep cutting diagonally across the path of an old brook. You can see on the OS map that the Brook was diverted along the top of the south embankment, downhill westward before going under the line. They upgraded this a few years back (IIRC the tree felling was done for this/at the same time)clearly seen as a ditch on Google Streetview.
Cant prove it but I think part of the drainage came from along the top of the embankment to the East of the bridge. With all the rain this embankment was probably saturated.
Locals are blaming the tree felling though……
The road bridge used to be fun, as it was very tight for two way, and would flood at the merest suggestion of rain. Must have been odd for train drivers seeing a wall of water coming over the parapet at them as cars ploughed through!

 

[deepeetw]

Passing through the work area and under the (soon to be removed) overbridge today, I couldn't help but notice other areas of banking that are similarly cleared with monitoring in place.

There are also some other vegetation issues - trees leaning against wire fences for support and one notable tree which is fully uprooted and sitting roots-first pointing down the embankment. Wouldn't take much for any of these to end up on the track.

I'm not entirely convinced that maintenance is as proactive as it could be in this area. And don't get me started on some of the rough ride on the up lines!!

 

[Sultan]

The railway was essentially cut through an enormous clay hill, with (presumably) the clay used to build the embankments for the railway to sit on a little further westwards. Standard 19th century engineering I believe. Living on the hill itself (albeit a few hundred yards from the railway) I know how the clay gets very water-logged in the autumn / winter yet dries out a lot in summer. I've noticed over the years how much wetter it has become in my garden which is on a significant slope itself and is part of the overall hill since I came here in 1990. Without the trees, it would never get dry in the spring / summer without them sucking the water from the ground (and these are big trees).

It's a toss (on he railway) between removing water from the clay on one hand, and leaf fall on the other. Not sure there is a solution really.